Boxing badly needs more heavy weight classes

[gilgamesh]

There should never be a division heavier than heavyweight, but boxing has a rich history of introducing intermediate divisions. How do you suppose the birth of the "super" divisions were greeted?

The way I see it is the division that gave us Dempsey, Tunney, Marciano, Patterson etc is still there to be enjoyed and admired, only now it's called cruiserweight. Now we have a wonderful old heavyweight division (cruiserweight) and also a new bigger exciting heavyweight division populated by giants. Why have one great division when you can have two?

Natural cruiserweights of supreme ability like Usyk or Holyfield can opt to try their luck in the heavier division where the real prize money resides, if they feel they have the necessary skills. Those of more mortal ability levels can keep in their lane and enjoy a successful career facing opponents of similar dimensions to themselves.

To me it was a no-brainer especially with the benefit of hindsight. I don't think I was so enlightened back then.

The HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the World has always been the Mountaintop in Boxing. When you're "The Heavyweight Champion of the World" it means something. If you change it to "Super Heavyweight Champion of the World" you're acting as if all that history doesn't matter.

A smaller Heavyweight beating a larger Heavyweight while rare, is something that can happen, and when it does it's revered as a momentous achievement that is lauded and talked about for years to come. But no...let's just take that away, let's make sure that can never happen ever again by adding a new weight class.

F*ck that.

[Tony1244]

The HW division MUST always be the top division. If humans continue to get bigger and better than simply move the cruiserweight division up in weight.

[jamamb]

fury literally does everything better then tom schwarz, its not the height or weight

fury is faster, way more accurate, way better defense , vastly better footwork and nimbleness etc. fury is actually one of the most skilled and talented hws around regardless of his size. basically he just doesnt have a world class punch (in part because of the way he throws his punches), but otherwise hes a gifted fighter

[gilgamesh]

The HW division MUST always be the top division. If humans continue to get bigger and better than simply move the cruiserweight division up in weight.

No. Don't do that either. 200 pounds is big enough. 190 pounds was big enough.

[Enlightened-One]

What general rule?

There’s a reason why weight classes exist, it’s because in general, good big men always beat good little men.

For sure, anyone is capable of naming a few notable exceptions that superficially appear to undermine this rule, but these are in the minority, since because under normal circumstances people would normally claim that the bigger fighter has an unfair size advantage over their much smaller opponent.

[candyslim]

The HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the World has always been the Mountaintop in Boxing. When you're "The Heavyweight Champion of the World" it means something. If you change it to "Super Heavyweight Champion of the World" you're acting as if all that history doesn't matter.

A smaller Heavyweight beating a larger Heavyweight while rare, is something that can happen, and when it does it's revered as a momentous achievement that is lauded and talked about for years to come. But no...let's just take that away, let's make sure that can never happen ever again by adding a new weight class.

F*ck that.

That's why I started outby saying that there should never be a division heavier than heavyweight. I would be firmly against the creation of a super-heavyweight division because that would consign over 100 years of history to the scrap heap. There is no such problem with introducing a intermediate division below heavyweight as has been done before with great success.

Many times i have asked the question and nobody has answered directly: Who now thinks that the creation of the cruiserweight division was a bad idea and who would like to see it discontinued?

Assuming the answer to that is "Not me" then who can tell me what is the difference between the hostility shown 30+ years ago to the cruiserweight division, and current antipathy toward a heavy-cruiserweight division?

I don't think there are too many weight divisions in boxing although maybe at the lighter end of the scale. How many weight divisions are there between 105 and 147lbs, eleven is it, covering 42 llbs ???

If you want to prune the weight divisions that's where to look. I think the problem is not the number of weight divisions, rather that there are way too many titles, trinkets and governing bodies. That's the trouble with boxing, at least as far as fans are concerned. Unfortunately the boxers don't see it that way and neither do the networks.

[Controversial]

There’s a reason why weight classes exist, it’s because in general, good big men always beat good little men.

For sure, anyone is capable of naming a few notable exceptions that superficially appear to undermine this rule, but these are in the minority, since because under normal circumstances people would normally claim that the bigger fighter has an unfair size advantage over their much smaller opponent.

Sure but where do you draw the line, Fury is pretty much a one off in terms of size and ability. As big as AJ is I wouldn't have fancied his chances against smaller HWs like Holyfield and Tyson.

[evrenb]

Ruiz at 6ft 2 with a 74 inch reach was big enough. Realistically he could make cruiserweight.

[Controversial]

His height and reach is smaller than most top HW's and a change from the giants ruling the division. His weight is something else. Most people don't box.

Yes but he isn't tiny that's what I meant, Mike Tyson would be considered small these days and Ruiz would probably make Tyson look small.

[oogiebe]

Yes but he isn't tiny that's what I meant, Mike Tyson would be considered small these days and Ruiz would probably make Tyson look small.

A lot of guys make and made Tyson look small. By today's standards (6'5"+ and 240 LBS +) Ruiz (who's probably closer to six feet) is relatively short and has a relatively short reach. If he was fit (and you know what I mean) he'd probably be around 230. Are we arguing that Ruiz is average size by today's standards? Because he really isn't. And he's certainly not 'big' (precluding weight).

[littlepug]

Those that feel too small at heavy should get their arses down to cruiser, it wouldn’t be easy and would involve a lot of hard graft but at least then they’d get to experience what every other single boxer in all the other divisions have to go through for every fight, making weight is no joke even for those whose divisions are separated by 3 pounds, I’m sure the luxury of not having to make weight and being in the best paid division is ample compensation for being one of the smaller guys.

[Controversial]

A lot of guys make and made Tyson look small. By today's standards (6'5"+ and 240 LBS +) Ruiz (who's probably closer to six feet) is relatively short and has a relatively short reach. If he was fit (and you know what I mean) he'd probably be around 230. Are we arguing that Ruiz is average size by today's standards? Because he really isn't. And he's certainly not 'big' (precluding weight).

I wasn’t really arguing, just saying i wouldn’t consider Ruiz to be small. Yes compared to someone 6”6’ he looks short. Of course he carries a lot of excess weight but you could argue that if AJ wasn’t lifting weights he wouldn’t be the weight he is either, that isn’t his natural size. Fury is naturally big, even if he worked his arse off he would probably still be 250lb.

[Tony1244]

No. Don't do that either. 200 pounds is big enough. 190 pounds was big enough.

I think it's big enough for now. But in the 1950s there weren't many, or any good HWs @ 230. If in 2060 there are numerous good fighters @ 250 or 260, then I'd move the cruiser division up. I think the main thing is to always have the biggest division called the Heavyweight division.

[ewenhay]

This old chestnut again.

There's a reason that cruiserweights step up to heavyweight and that's because the rewards are richer. Another weight division in between cruiser and heavy won't stop that. If anything it will just dilute the talent pool further

[oogiebe]

This old chestnut again.

There's a reason that cruiserweights step up to heavyweight and that's because the rewards are richer. Another weight division in between cruiser and heavy won't stop that. If anything it will just dilute the talent pool further

Perfect.

[Enlightened-One]

Sure but where do you draw the line, Fury is pretty much a one off in terms of size and ability. As big as AJ is I wouldn't have fancied his chances against smaller HWs like Holyfield and Tyson.

And Holyfield and Tyson are in the minority, they're exceptions to the general rule.

That being said, when ‘Iron’ Mike was at his prime (during the first 37 bouts of his career), the average weight of his opponents were 212lbs, which is the physical equivalent of rehydrated modern-day cruiserweights.

[Contendeh]

More weight classes = more ducking.

[tiny_acres]

More weight classes = more ducking.

More weight classes = more politics

[gilgamesh]

That's why I started outby saying that there should never be a division heavier than heavyweight. I would be firmly against the creation of a super-heavyweight division because that would consign over 100 years of history to the scrap heap. There is no such problem with introducing a intermediate division below heavyweight as has been done before with great success.

Many times i have asked the question and nobody has answered directly: Who now thinks that the creation of the cruiserweight division was a bad idea and who would like to see it discontinued?

Assuming the answer to that is "Not me" then who can tell me what is the difference between the hostility shown 30+ years ago to the cruiserweight division, and current antipathy toward a heavy-cruiserweight division?

I don't think there are too many weight divisions in boxing although maybe at the lighter end of the scale. How many weight divisions are there between 105 and 147lbs, eleven is it, covering 42 llbs ???

If you want to prune the weight divisions that's where to look. I think the problem is not the number of weight divisions, rather that there are way too many titles, trinkets and governing bodies. That's the trouble with boxing, at least as far as fans are concerned. Unfortunately the boxers don't see it that way and neither do the networks.

I definitely think you could lose a lot of your "Jr." division. 105 is fine, but we don't need the 108 in between 105 and 112. Just gain another 4 pounds for f*cks sake. Or stay at 105.

105
112
118
126
135
147
160
175
200
Heavyweight

That's really all you need. I wouldn't mind keeping Super Middleweight if people wanted to, but it doesn't really feel necessary either to me.

These weight classes only, and only one Recognized World Champion would make Boxing a lot more meaningful and easier to follow for the common person.

It just really annoys me when people actually try to suggest ways to make the sport worse. Dickheads like that are why we have 4 World Champions.

[Controversial]

And Holyfield and Tyson are in the minority, they're exceptions to the general rule.

That being said, when ‘Iron’ Mike was at his prime (during the first 37 bouts of his career), the average weight of his opponents were 212lbs, which is the physical equivalent of rehydrated modern-day cruiserweights.

So at what weight do you make a new division? Or do you call anyone between 200-220lb a Super Cruiserweight?

[candyslim]

That would be a sensible solution to redefine the weight limits to make it more balanced, but then the downside is that you are then messing with history. Say you ask who was the greatest bantamweight ever, you're going to get asked whether you mean the pre-2020 weight limit, the post 2020 limit or both.

[Ilya Muromets]

So at what weight do you make a new division? Or do you call anyone between 200-220lb a Super Cruiserweight?

You do it in a logical way by percentage increments, instead of a haphazard way where you have just 7 pounds for light heavy, and then suddenly you jump 25 pounds to cruiserweight. Makes no sense at all except all the ridiculous light weight classes mean they can sell more tickets for "world championship" fights. Not just the "small" heavyweights have no fair place in boxing now but also men weighing a little over 175 in the cruiserweight div. because they are in the same weight class with 200 pounders, and meanwhile light heavies are so carefully protected against having to fight anyone even 7 pounds more, but it is by far the worst for the "smaller" heavyweights.

[gilgamesh]

You do it in a logical way by percentage increments, instead of a haphazard way where you have just 7 pounds for light heavy, and then suddenly you jump 25 pounds to cruiserweight. Makes no sense at all except all the ridiculous light weight classes mean they can sell more tickets for "world championship" fights. Not just the "small" heavyweights have no fair place in boxing now but also men weighing a little over 175 in the cruiserweight div. because they are in the same weight class with 200 pounders, and meanwhile light heavies are so carefully protected against having to fight anyone even 7 pounds more, but it is by far the worst for the "smaller" heavyweights.

Don't f*ck with the weight classes. There's more than enough of them as is, and we don't need more of them. We don't need anything changed about the ones that exist either. Except maybe for some of them to cease to exist.

[HomicideHenry]

Get rid of the dehydration and rehydration practices. Compete within 10 pounds of your natural weight and quit crying about size differentials. For me it's more ridiculous in the lower weights--- you can have some cruiserweight sized asshole drain down to 160 and proclaim himself the middleweight champion. That's not only a false advertisement, it's cowardly in my eyes that you can't win unless you're that much bigger and stronger than others.

At least at heavyweight, everyone 200+ pounds is basically a goon anyways. History has shown us time and again it only takes a certain size to beat anybody anyways. Dempsey was 187 pounds and still annihilated Willard, Fulton and Morris (240+ pounds each). You get hit behind the ear or on the point of the chin by someone close to 200 pounds, it doesn't matter your size, you're hitting the deck.

You could be 8'0" and 500 pounds, your ass is grass if a 6' 200 pound well conditioned guy is swarming all over you. The only time people bitch about the heavyweights is when a giant who can actually fight like a little man comes along and people whine how unfair it is.

For me personally, I wish boxing went back to being essentially open-weight. Because I guarantee someone 147 pounds can make a few heavyweight journeymen look silly. If you can beat somebody you ought to be allowed to compete regardless of disparity.

[gilgamesh]

Get rid of the dehydration and rehydration practices. Compete within 10 pounds of your natural weight and quit crying about size differentials. For me it's more ridiculous in the lower weights--- you can have some cruiserweight sized asshole drain down to 160 and proclaim himself the middleweight champion. That's not only a false advertisement, it's cowardly in my eyes that you can't win unless you're that much bigger and stronger than others.

At least at heavyweight, everyone 200+ pounds is basically a goon anyways. History has shown us time and again it only takes a certain size to beat anybody anyways. Dempsey was 187 pounds and still annihilated Willard, Fulton and Morris (240+ pounds each). You get hit behind the ear or on the point of the chin by someone close to 200 pounds, it doesn't matter your size, you're hitting the deck.

You could be 8'0" and 500 pounds, your ass is grass if a 6' 200 pound well conditioned guy is swarming all over you. The only time people bitch about the heavyweights is when a giant who can actually fight like a little man comes along and people whine how unfair it is.

For me personally, I wish boxing went back to being essentially open-weight. Because I guarantee someone 147 pounds can make a few heavyweight journeymen look silly. If you can beat somebody you ought to be allowed to compete regardless of disparity.

It would be cool to see special attraction open weight bouts now and then perhaps.

I mean Sam Langford and Joe Walcott (the original one) beat Heavyweights while being either a Welterweight or Middleweight in size, if it wasn't impossible then, it's not impossible now.

That being said I don't know if it's the kind of thing that should be done often, but every now and again when you have those absolutely amazing super talents it'd be interesting to see for the hell of it perhaps.

Getting kinda off track here, but yeah at least somebody else gets it that it's absolutely damn stupid to be talking about changing up Heavyweight.