BoxRec

dagilechia wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 12:54 and why Parker did so? i think that head clash kd played an important role in the outcome of this fight

Cos he's not a nasty - win @ all costs' - barsteward like Whyte.

dagilechia wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 12:26 wins over Cojanu, Kauffman, Hammer are not much worse than wins over Browne (Cojanu's leve), Helenius, Chisora 2 (those 2 are Hammer's level).. of course, he has also wins over Chisora 1 and Parker, but those could go either way (especially this fight vs Chisora, around 80% of people had Chisora up on the cards, including me, but vs Parker the first kd was fake, head butt foul influenced the result of this fight a lot + Whyte should be deducted 1 point, so it could easily go to Parker, i had 113-112 Whyte but the head clash was possibly decisive, just like the elbow in Briedis vs Glowacki caused that Glowacki was done, Parker lost rounds due to that too, he needed time to fully regenerate)

Hey Dagi I think you need to start thinking of reasons why a win over Rivas deserves no credit because there is a strong possibility Whyte could beat him.

It's easy to sneer at Lucas Browne now but before Whyte knocked him TF out, people like me who have Whyte's best interests at heart, were as nervous for him as they now are about him facing Rivas. He isn't the best in the world by any stretch of the imagination, but he consistently takes on opponents that (before the fight) are given a very good chance of beating him, which is a lot more than be said for most of the world's top ten.

Don't listen to me. I'm British and I'm very biased toward Dillian. Listen instead to Enlightened One who is neutral and clearly has a lot of respect for Whyte based purely on his achievements. He is not alone in that.

Yeah what he says.
Dag, you're kinda right - Whyte isn't that good, but that just makes his achievements and winning KO run all the more impressive.

He's got a knack of beating better fighters, by hook or by crook and that's why the fans love him.

i dont think theres anyone in the division who is beyond having any trouble with whyte. maybe fury would have the best shot to just clown him

candyslim wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 13:39 Hey Dagi I think you need to start thinking of reasons why a win over Rivas deserves no credit because there is a strong possibility Whyte could beat him.

It's easy to sneer at Lucas Browne now but before Whyte knocked him TF out, people like me who have Whyte's best interests at heart, were as nervous for him as they now are about him facing Rivas. He isn't the best in the world by any stretch of the imagination, but he consistently takes on opponents that (before the fight) are given a very good chance of beating him, which is a lot more than be said for most of the world's top ten.

Don't listen to me. I'm British and I'm very biased toward Dillian. Listen instead to Enlightened One who is neutral and clearly has a lot of respect for Whyte based purely on his achievements. He is not alone in that.

Browne was one of the most overrated fighters i can think of, i have never had him in my top 30, old bum beater.

a win, especially a win in decent fashion over Rivas is legit though. of course, Whyte does slighty more than all of the contenders, but still, i wouldn't rank him higher than #7, he's just so average. His accomplishments are good, especially in this terribly weak era, but that just shows how weak (and that most of them aim in the titleshot, not the title) are current contenders.

skanksta wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 13:08 Cos he's not a nasty - win @ all costs' - barsteward like Whyte.

you are right but the headbutt kd, at least in my opinion, had a great impact too

The latest is that Hearn and Whyte claim that the WBC is promising him the winner of Fury/Wilder II.

dagilechia wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 15:09 you are right but the headbutt kd, at least in my opinion, had a great impact too

100%
Watch Parker before the head clash. He was boxing rings around Whyte. Faster, more accurate, landing combinations etc.

Good

He should have been removed from the rankings completely after turning down a title shot. I hope he never gets another but the division is so shallow and pathetic that he'll eventually get one.

KiwiRider wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 15:46 100%
Watch Parker before the head clash. He was boxing rings around Whyte. Faster, more accurate, landing combinations etc.

yeah because Parker is just a much better boxer than Whyte and i would favour Joseph to win the rematch. and despite the head clash and a lot of Whyte's fouls (imo he should be deducted a point and the head clash kd shouldnt count of course) i had it 113-112 Whyte but could well give it to Parker.

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 15:17 The latest is that Hearn and Whyte claim that the WBC is promising him the winner of Fury/Wilder II.

Sounds good, but the WBC should stop messing around and just make the winner of Whyte v Rivas the mandatory. The WBC have already set a precedent of how they define their mandatory these past 3-4 years.

TLDR: The “mandatory” fights a “contender” to solidify their claim => the “mandatory” is promoted to actual mandatory status to fight Wilder due to external events => The “contender” then takes the position of “mandatory”.

Ignoring who is promoted by who and what influence that may or may not have, and ignoring the ratings of the fighters at the time, this is a quick summation of events over the last 3-4 years in the WBC’s game of thrones bad fan fiction:

• 1. Povetkin is mandatory for Wilder (2016). Fight is cancelled due to Povetkin failing a drug test (later shown to be an error).
  2. Whyte (WBC Int.) v Chisora (2016) WBC eliminator to face Wilder.
  3. Povetkin (mandatory) ordered to fight Stiverne – Stiverne then fails a drug test.
  4. Stiverne will fight Breazeale to become mandatory on Wilder v Ortiz undercard.
  5. Ortiz fails a drug test (LOL).
  6. Stiverne is promoted to mandatory and fights Wilder (despite fighting once in three years).
  7. Breazeale and Whyte in talks to fight as a route to Wilder. Talks break down.
  8. Whyte (WBC Int.) v Helenius for vacant WBC silver.
  9. Breazeale v Molina on the Wilder v Stiverne undercard (2017). A press release says it will be a “final” eliminator. Media outlets and Hearn challenge this. WBC correct the press release to remove the word “final”.
  10. After the fight takes place, WBC then say oh no, it was a final eliminator, and now Breazeale is mandatory.
  11. Arguing back and forth for a year
  12. Breazeale will fight Whyte in a FINAL final eliminator in 2019.
  13. Fury pulls out of the Wilder fight.
  14. Breazeale is promoted to mandatory and fights Wilder (2019).
  THEREFORE it would follow that Whyte v Rivas should be for the mandatory position.

Of course all the above is contingent on the WBC not being extremely cavalier with both its own rules and the precedent it seems to be setting above.


p.s. please correct me if there is anything wrong with the events I have listed above.

Oh if you insist. In item 1 you put (later shown to be an error). I don't think that was in any way an error. It was a bullshit charge but I very much doubt there was any error. We have seen how protective the WBC are about who holds their belt and I don't think Povetkin was part of their plans.

Contrast how Povetkin and Stiverne were treated for their transgressions.

Fair enough. I was trying to be diplomatic with my wording.

I actually agree with your suspicions of what actually went down.

Whyte is an interesting case. He is not that good but he still keeps on winning.

Why do I think hes not that good?

He should be 1 and 1 against Chisora. Kabayl and Pulev beat Chisora quite easily. Where does this rank Whyte?

He nailed Joshua with one good shot. Otherwise he got dismantled badly in that fight.

Helenius had hes moments against Whyte even when he had really short preparation time and had health problems before the fight. Whyte failed to but him out.

Skill and ability vise I would rank him around rank 8-9 in the division.

Ranking him by the wins... Which is what I usually do... I rank
him as number 5.

He also definitely deserves a title shot. The top guys ducking him for ages is pretty telling

I agree with your assertion about Dillian Whyte being very beatable, but despite his stylistic flaws, he always finds a way to win. And he’s clearly not scared to share the ring with anyone. He has the finest resume of any currently active fighter that has never fought for any version of a world title.

I also believe that Whyte has improved immensely since his loss to AJ, because he’s no longer a crude slugger.

Dillian had been a pro for 4½ years when he faced AJ in 2015 and it’s been 3½ years since that defeat. Time doesn’t stand still and Whyte is a better fighter today than he was back then. Pretending otherwise and continuously brining up that loss is simply wrong!

I wouldn’t dismiss his chances of beating any of today’s top-ten heavyweights, barring Tyson Fury. Not because ‘The Gypsy King’ is that damn good, but since I feel his style is all wrong from Whyte.

The thing about Dillian, is that despite him being a limited fighter, is that he’s an overachiever that doesn’t know how to lose (unless he’s knocked unconscious). And that makes him a dangerous heavyweight for any fighter (not named Tyson Fury) to overcome.

In terms of the reason why I feel Dillian Whyte is being “ducked” by his peers, is that I believe it’s due to him being self-managed and not having any ties to any promoter or broadcaster.

And as we already know, the sports’ governing bodies tend to show favoritism towards certain boxing content providers (i.e. Bob Arum/Fṙḁṅḱ Ẁḁṙṙḛṅ = WBO; PBC = WBC; Matchroom = WBA/IBF).

So it’s not in any boxing content providers’ best interest to grant Dillian Whyte a shot at one of the world titles they hold possession of if they can’t retain control over The Body Snatcher’s subsequent fights, because it’s not worth risking the loss of those belts.

Finkel wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 03:18 Fair enough. I was trying to be diplomatic with my wording.

I actually agree with your suspicions of what actually went down.

I wouldn't have quibbled but you did ask

A UFC fighter just got tagged for traces of osterine for the second time. Jon Jones had traces of a different ped that they determined was the same one he already did two years for. Now he's the most tested athlete in sports and still traces come up. The UFC is much more stringent than boxing but it brings up new problems as testing evolves. No way the wbc or wilder didn't want that payday but povetkin isn't as dirty as I made him out to be.

candyslim wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 08:13 I wouldn't have quibbled but you did ask

punchoutsb wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 18:40 Good

He should have been removed from the rankings completely after turning down a title shot. I hope he never gets another but the division is so shallow and pathetic that he'll eventually get one.

That is utter crap. Whyte turned down the shot at Joshua because he was being lowballed by Hearn - or so the story goes. It's my belief it wasn't the right time for Whyte, for Joshua, nor for the UK public. Whyte's strategy (pre-Ruiz) has been to target the WBC belt, then to fight Joshua for all the marbles in a UK mega-fight. He thinks he can beat Wilder and Sulaiman and the other members of Wilder's team, don't seem at all sure that he can't. Nothing wrong with that ambition on any level and he's paid more money to that c*nt Sulaiman and his bunch of crooks, than any current heavyweight with the exception of Wilder. Why change strategy mid-stream? He wants the green belt and he's earned his chance twice over.

Why should a fighter not be free to decide which champion to target? He's fought Joshua before. The rematch will happen when it suits both fighters. Whyte wants Wilder. He has never been offered a shot by the PBC / WBC never mind rejected one.

Whyte will fight anyone at all provided the money is right and it makes good sense in terms of his career. If you are implying Whyte turned down Joshua because he was scared, you clearly know f*ck-all about it. You don't have to like Whyte's personality or even rate his ability, but this guy is less averse to taking on dangerous opposition than anyone, certainly outside the big four, and if you can't at least credit him with that, you are either a mindless hater and/or a boxing ignoramus.

candyslim wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 17:54 That is utter crap. Whyte turned down the shot at Joshua because he was being lowballed by Hearn - or so the story goes. It's my belief it wasn't the right time for Whyte, for Joshua, nor for the UK public. Whyte's strategy (pre-Ruiz) has been to target the WBC belt, then to fight Joshua for all the marbles in a UK mega-fight. He thinks he can beat Wilder and Sulaiman and the other members of Wilder's team, don't seem at all sure that he can't. Nothing wrong with that ambition on any level and he's paid more money to that c*nt Sulaiman and his bunch of crooks, than any current heavyweight with the exception of Wilder. Why change strategy mid-stream? He wants the green belt and he's earned his chance twice over.

Why should a fighter not be free to decide which champion to target? He's fought Joshua before. The rematch will happen when it suits both fighters. Whyte wants Wilder. He has never been offered a shot by the PBC / WBC never mind rejected one.

Whyte will fight anyone at all provided the money is right and it makes good sense in terms of his career. If you are implying Whyte turned down Joshua because he was scared, you clearly know f*ck-all about it. You don't have to like Whyte's personality or even rate his ability, but this guy is less averse to taking on dangerous opposition than anyone, certainly outside the big four, and if you can't at least credit him with that, you are either a mindless hater and/or a boxing ignoramus.

Calm down there slim, nobody said anything about being scared. Whyte had an opportunity to fight for three belts and he turned them down, the WBO being one of them. Why would you keep a guy ranked number one who turned down a title shot? He's still ranked by the WBC, so nothing's changed in his pursuit of Wilder. He turned down a WBO shot so he shouldv'e automatically been pushed down the rankings for that. Divisional rankings shouldn't be tied up because someone rated number one doesn't feel ready to fight and it doesn't matter the reason. If he didn't like the money then take the shot, win and become the big dog. Andy Ruiz did.

But of course, those ratings reflect political realities. The ratings do not -- and are not intended to -- accurately reflect fighters' abilities and merits vis-a-vis one another.

With all of the alphabets, boxers rise and fall in the ratings depending on the business relationships that exist between the organization's reps and the fighters' promoters. Nothing more.

punchoutsb wrote: ↑29 Jun 2019, 15:16

Calm down there slim, nobody said anything about being scared. Whyte had an opportunity to fight for three belts and he turned them down, the WBO being one of them. Why would you keep a guy ranked number one who turned down a title shot? He's still ranked by the WBC, so nothing's changed in his pursuit of Wilder. He turned down a WBO shot so he shouldv'e automatically been pushed down the rankings for that. Divisional rankings shouldn't be tied up because someone rated number one doesn't feel ready to fight and it doesn't matter the reason. If he didn't like the money then take the shot, win and become the big dog. Andy Ruiz did.

The title shot wasn't mandated by any of the governing bodies. Whyte was asked by Hearn if he wanted to substitute for Wilder and fight Joshua for the titles on 1st April being the date earmarked for the unification, as a voluntary challenger for $5m. It was no business of the governing bodies who Joshua chose to fight as his voluntary.

Whyte is purported to have declined because he didn't like the idea that if he beat Joshua he'd be obliged to give him a rematch while still taking the short end of the purse. The UK public were lukewarm about the rematch in any case, so it made sense for all concerned to put it on ice for the foreseeable. Of course Ruiz accepted a similar offer and is now sitting pretty, but that was his choice, just as it was Whyte's. Should Ruiz have been dropped from the rankings if he'd decided not to accept the terms he was offered? How about Ortiz? Tyson Fury?

There's no reason whatever to drop Whyte from anyone's rankings, that's just silly and vindictive.

candyslim wrote: ↑29 Jun 2019, 18:33 The title shot wasn't mandated by any of the governing bodies. Whyte was asked by Hearn if he wanted to substitute for Wilder and fight Joshua for the titles on 1st April being the date earmarked for the unification, as a voluntary challenger for $5m. It was no business of the governing bodies who Joshua chose to fight as his voluntary.

Whyte is purported to have declined because he didn't like the idea that if he beat Joshua he'd be obliged to give him a rematch while still taking the short end of the purse. The UK public were lukewarm about the rematch in any case, so it made sense for all concerned to put it on ice for the foreseeable. Of course Ruiz accepted a similar offer and is now sitting pretty, but that was his choice, just as it was Whyte's. Should Ruiz have been dropped from the rankings if he'd decided not to accept the terms he was offered? How about Ortiz? Tyson Fury?

There's no reason whatever to drop Whyte from anyone's rankings, that's just silly and vindictive.

First, the Usyk situation is clearly defined in the WBO's regulations so no foul play there. Secondly, the Fury move is complete nonsense so I agree on that. But I don't think the WBO has it in for Whyte.

candyslim wrote: ↑29 Jun 2019, 18:33 The title shot wasn't mandated by any of the governing bodies. Whyte was asked by Hearn if he wanted to substitute for Wilder and fight Joshua for the titles on 1st April being the date earmarked for the unification, as a voluntary challenger for $5m. It was no business of the governing bodies who Joshua chose to fight as his voluntary.

Whyte is purported to have declined because he didn't like the idea that if he beat Joshua he'd be obliged to give him a rematch while still taking the short end of the purse. The UK public were lukewarm about the rematch in any case, so it made sense for all concerned to put it on ice for the foreseeable. Of course Ruiz accepted a similar offer and is now sitting pretty, but that was his choice, just as it was Whyte's. Should Ruiz have been dropped from the rankings if he'd decided not to accept the terms he was offered? How about Ortiz? Tyson Fury?

There's no reason whatever to drop Whyte from anyone's rankings, that's just silly and vindictive.

I know you're trying to turn this into something its not, but its pretty simple: any fighter that turns down a title shot should be dropped from that titles rankings. As I said before, ivisional rankings shouldn't be tied up because someone rated number one doesn't want to fight for any reason.

No neither do I. Whyte is fast approaching two years as WBC mandatory though, so for them I make no such claim.

I don't think Sulaiman has it in for Whyte though. He just does what he's bloody well told by the organ-grinder.