BoxRec

klompton wrote: ↑18 Aug 2019, 14:35

Controversial wrote: ↑17 Aug 2019, 11:48

There is a quote from Zivic in the press saying he once owned Burleys contract. I agree Burley probably wasn't everyones cup of tea to watch and he probably didn't help himself but I don't think he was so boring that no one wanted to watch him either. He went 20-0 (15KO) at one point so its not like all his fights were drab points wins. He also wasn't the only fighter to not get his shot but he was certainly the type of fighter that people would avoid. He was ranked in the top 10 for so many years, its not like he was a flash in the pan.

Like I said, Zivic may well have been behind Silverman purchasing Burley's contract but the old story that this is the reason Burley didnt get a title shot is bogus. Zivic lost his title before he could have used this as an opportunity to duck Burley. Moreover, owning Burley's contract clandestinely wouldnt have prevented the public from calling for that match or Burley from getting ranked in the top spot or from promoters asking for the bout. That didnt happen. If you want to believe Burley set the world on fire with his style go ahead, even his hometown papers would have disagreed with that notion. The dollars dont lie. If people really wanted to see Burley fight they would have put their money up at the box office. Burley's bouts were routinely low drawing bouts.

Cochrane pulled off quite the upset to beat Zivic, he was only really a journeyman (63-32-8) and didn't really deserve a shot at the title. I doubt it was a fight Zivic thought he would lose so the purchase of Burleys contract must've been for a reason, unfortunately for Zivic he lost the title very quickly making that a moot point.

I never said Burley set the world on fire, all I said was he had his fair share of KOs. Burley always said his problem was he wouldn't take bribes or get involved in dodgy deals, maybe thats why the mob connected Cochrane got a shot of the title and he didn't.

So, there is no truth to the story that Sugar Ray turned down a purse that matched his career best(at that time)to fight Burley in 1946 ?

It is ironic Charley Burley's hometown of Pittsburgh was a fine fight city during much of his career. Fellow hometown contemporaries such as Billy Conn, Fritzie Zivic, Sammy Angott, Harry Bobo and Ozzie Harris had bouts which drew fine gates in Pittsburgh. But all of the mentioned fighters were colorful or had appealing fighting styles. Like Burley, Bobo and Harris were black. Ezzard Charles, John Henry Lewis and Sugar Ray Robinson also had bouts which drew fine gates in Pittsburgh. As a result, the fact that Burley was black probably didn't have that much effect on his ability to draw fans to his bouts, certainly not as much as his dull fighting style and his lack of charisma did.

In late 1941, someone named Bobby Eaton (or Bobbie Eaton) from the Midwest bought Burley's contract and became his manager. As a result, Burley and his family (which included a very young daughter) pulled up stakes and moved to Minneapolis. To do that, Burley reportedly quit a steel mill job in which he earned ten dollars a day.

During 1941 before his move to Minneapolis, Burley had only six bouts, probably with Luke Carney (Fritzie Zivic's manager) calling all of the shots. It is very hard to prove that someone like Carney was purposefully sabotaging Burley's career. According to one report, Burley's first manager, Phil Goldstein, sold his contract to Irwin Silverman, who may have been a front for Carney and Zivic, for $1,300. or $1,400. during the early part of 1941. That was a fair amount of money at the time, especially for a fighter who wasn't much of a gate attraction. It could be that buying Burley's contract was a gamble rather than an attempt to sabotaging his career. Moreover, it was extremely difficult for any manager to get Burley any bouts, especially lucrative ones.

It is probable that Bobby Eaton was a front for Tommy O'Loughlin, a veteran boxing man who was promoting boxing shows at the Armory in Minneapolis during the early 1940s. After the move to Minneapolis, Burley would have his most active period during boxing career, fighting a total of twenty-five times from December 1941 to June 1943. Unfortunately, Burley continued to be a dismal gate attraction, notably in his seven bouts that took place in Minneapolis. Six of the Minneapolis bouts drew gates that ranged from less than $1,000. to around $2,000. Burley did fight on a show that drew a gate of about $3,500. in Minneapolis on April 30, 1942, but Sugar Ray Robinson and Reuben Shank also fought on the same show. It would be the last time that Burley fought in Minneapolis.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2019, 22:59 It is ironic Charley Burley's hometown of Pittsburgh was a fine fight city during much of his career. Fellow hometown contemporaries such as Billy Conn, Fritzie Zivic, Sammy Angott, Harry Bobo and Ozzie Harris had bouts which drew fine gates in Pittsburgh. But all of the mentioned fighters were colorful or had appealing fighting styles. Like Burley, Bobo and Harris were black. Ezzard Charles, John Henry Lewis and Sugar Ray Robinson also had bouts which drew fine gates in Pittsburgh. As a result, the fact that Burley was black probably didn't have that much effect on his ability to draw fans to his bouts, certainly not as much as his dull fighting style and his lack of charisma did.

In late 1941, someone named Bobby Eaton (or Bobbie Eaton) from the Midwest bought Burley's contract and became his manager. As a result, Burley and his family (which included a very young daughter) pulled up stakes and moved to Minneapolis. To do that, Burley reportedly quit a steel mill job in which he earned ten dollars a day.

During 1941 before his move to Minneapolis, Burley had only six bouts, probably with Luke Carney (Fritzie Zivic's manager) calling all of the shots. It is very hard to prove that someone like Carney was purposefully sabotaging Burley's career. According to one report, Burley's first manager, Phil Goldstein, sold his contract to Irwin Silverman, who may have been a front for Carney and Zivic, for $1,300. or $1,400. during the early part of 1941. That was a fair amount of money at the time, especially for a fighter who wasn't much of a gate attraction. It could be that buying Burley's contract was a gamble rather than an attempt to sabotaging his career. Moreover, it was extremely difficult for any manager to get Burley any bouts, especially lucrative ones.

It is probable that Bobby Eaton was a front for Tommy O'Loughlin, a veteran boxing man who was promoting boxing shows at the Armory in Minneapolis during the early 1940s. After the move to Minneapolis, Burley would have his most active period during boxing career, fighting a total of twenty-five times from December 1941 to June 1943. Unfortunately, Burley continued to be a dismal gate attraction, notably in his seven bouts that took place in Minneapolis. Six of the Minneapolis bouts drew gates that ranged from less than $1,000. to around $2,000. Burley did fight on a show that drew a gate of about $3,500. in Minneapolis on April 30, 1942, but Sugar Ray Robinson and Reuben Shank also fought on the same show. It would be the last time that Burley fought in Minneapolis.

- Chuck Johnston

Nice background Chuck. The numbers don't lie, I'm sure maybe his lack of charisma and style probably didn't appeal to the masses but on the flip side he was in the 'who needs him club' and good enough to cause an upset. A catch 22 for him unfortunately.

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 05:04

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2019, 22:59 It is ironic Charley Burley's hometown of Pittsburgh was a fine fight city during much of his career. Fellow hometown contemporaries such as Billy Conn, Fritzie Zivic, Sammy Angott, Harry Bobo and Ozzie Harris had bouts which drew fine gates in Pittsburgh. But all of the mentioned fighters were colorful or had appealing fighting styles. Like Burley, Bobo and Harris were black. Ezzard Charles, John Henry Lewis and Sugar Ray Robinson also had bouts which drew fine gates in Pittsburgh. As a result, the fact that Burley was black probably didn't have that much effect on his ability to draw fans to his bouts, certainly not as much as his dull fighting style and his lack of charisma did.

In late 1941, someone named Bobby Eaton (or Bobbie Eaton) from the Midwest bought Burley's contract and became his manager. As a result, Burley and his family (which included a very young daughter) pulled up stakes and moved to Minneapolis. To do that, Burley reportedly quit a steel mill job in which he earned ten dollars a day.

During 1941 before his move to Minneapolis, Burley had only six bouts, probably with Luke Carney (Fritzie Zivic's manager) calling all of the shots. It is very hard to prove that someone like Carney was purposefully sabotaging Burley's career. According to one report, Burley's first manager, Phil Goldstein, sold his contract to Irwin Silverman, who may have been a front for Carney and Zivic, for $1,300. or $1,400. during the early part of 1941. That was a fair amount of money at the time, especially for a fighter who wasn't much of a gate attraction. It could be that buying Burley's contract was a gamble rather than an attempt to sabotaging his career. Moreover, it was extremely difficult for any manager to get Burley any bouts, especially lucrative ones.

It is probable that Bobby Eaton was a front for Tommy O'Loughlin, a veteran boxing man who was promoting boxing shows at the Armory in Minneapolis during the early 1940s. After the move to Minneapolis, Burley would have his most active period during boxing career, fighting a total of twenty-five times from December 1941 to June 1943. Unfortunately, Burley continued to be a dismal gate attraction, notably in his seven bouts that took place in Minneapolis. Six of the Minneapolis bouts drew gates that ranged from less than $1,000. to around $2,000. Burley did fight on a show that drew a gate of about $3,500. in Minneapolis on April 30, 1942, but Sugar Ray Robinson and Reuben Shank also fought on the same show. It would be the last time that Burley fought in Minneapolis.

- Chuck Johnston

Nice background Chuck. The numbers don't lie, I'm sure maybe his lack of charisma and style probably didn't appeal to the masses but on the flip side he was in the 'who needs him club' and good enough to cause an upset. A catch 22 for him unfortunately.

Quite a number of promoters and matchmakers seemed to be not interested in having Charley Burley fighting on their boxing shows. Take a close look at Burley's record and think of the important American boxing cities or venues at the time. Burley never fought in New York City venues such as Madison Square Garden, Yankee Stadium, the Polo Grounds; Chicago venues such as Chicago Stadium, Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park; the Philadelphia venue, Shibe Park; and Los Angeles venues such as the Olympic Auditorium, Gilmore Stadium and Wrigley Field. Detroit and Cleveland were important boxing cities in which Burley never had a bout. Burley fought only one bout each in New York City (at the Saint Nicholas Arena) and Chicago (at the Chicago Coliseum). He did have a number of bouts in Philadelphia, but none after 1941. The brutal fact was that it was very hard for managers, no matter how competent they were, to line up bouts for Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2019, 16:59

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Aug 2019, 05:04

Nice background Chuck. The numbers don't lie, I'm sure maybe his lack of charisma and style probably didn't appeal to the masses but on the flip side he was in the 'who needs him club' and good enough to cause an upset. A catch 22 for him unfortunately.

Quite a number of promoters and matchmakers seemed to be not interested in having Charley Burley fighting on their boxing shows. Take a close look at Burley's record and think of the important American boxing cities or venues at the time. Burley never fought in New York City venues such as Madison Square Garden, Yankee Stadium, the Polo Grounds; Chicago venues such as Chicago Stadium, Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park; the Philadelphia venue, Shibe Park; and Los Angeles venues such as the Olympic Auditorium, Gilmore Stadium and Wrigley Field. Detroit and Cleveland were important boxing cities in which Burley never had a bout. Burley fought only one bout each in New York City (at the Saint Nicholas Arena) and Chicago (at the Chicago Coliseum). He did have a number of bouts in Philadelphia, but none after 1941. The brutal fact was that it was very hard for managers, no matter how competent they were, to line up bouts for Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

Yes interesting, how much was that to him being avoided do you think?

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Aug 2019, 17:06

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2019, 16:59

Quite a number of promoters and matchmakers seemed to be not interested in having Charley Burley fighting on their boxing shows. Take a close look at Burley's record and think of the important American boxing cities or venues at the time. Burley never fought in New York City venues such as Madison Square Garden, Yankee Stadium, the Polo Grounds; Chicago venues such as Chicago Stadium, Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park; the Philadelphia venue, Shibe Park; and Los Angeles venues such as the Olympic Auditorium, Gilmore Stadium and Wrigley Field. Detroit and Cleveland were important boxing cities in which Burley never had a bout. Burley fought only one bout each in New York City (at the Saint Nicholas Arena) and Chicago (at the Chicago Coliseum). He did have a number of bouts in Philadelphia, but none after 1941. The brutal fact was that it was very hard for managers, no matter how competent they were, to line up bouts for Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

Yes interesting, how much was that to him being avoided do you think?

I don't think there is any question that Charley Burley was being avoided by other fighters, which certainly hampered his ability to get bouts. But all-time great fighters such as Sugar Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong didn't seem to be avoided quite as much when Burley was active. Both Robinson and Armstrong had the advantage of being fine gate attractions while Burley was not. Fighters were willing to get bouts with Robinson or Armstrong because they would have a good chance to get good paydays.

Burley may also have been avoided because of his ability and fighting style. Jack Hurley, the great boxing man, handled Milt Aron, a welterweight from Chicago, for a number of out-of-town bouts. There were plans for Aron to fight in the middleweight division later on. When asked about a possible bout between Aron and Burley, Hurley obviously was very reluctant because he felt that a fighter was likely to look terrible when facing someone like Burley.

During his entire career as a boxing man, Hurley liked fighters who were aggressive. In other words, Burley certainly was not Hurley's type of fighter. It should also be noted that Burley never fought on Chicago boxing cards that Hurley was involved in. Yet Hurley did quite a bit of business with Tommy O'Loughlin, a manager of Burley, over a long span of time.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 08:20

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Aug 2019, 17:06

Yes interesting, how much was that to him being avoided do you think?

I don't think there is any question that Charley Burley was being avoided by other fighters, which certainly hampered his ability to get bouts. But all-time great fighters such as Sugar Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong didn't seem to be avoided quite as much when Burley was active. Both Robinson and Armstrong had the advantage of being fine gate attractions while Burley was not. Fighters were willing to get bouts with Robinson or Armstrong because they would have a good chance to get good paydays.

Burley may also have been avoided because of his ability and fighting style. Jack Hurley, the great boxing man, handled Milt Aron, a welterweight from Chicago, for a number of out-of-town bouts. There were plans for Aron to fight in the middleweight division later on. When asked about a possible bout between Aron and Burley, Hurley obviously was very reluctant because he felt that a fighter was likely to look terrible when facing someone like Burley.

During his entire career as a boxing man, Hurley liked fighters who were aggressive. In other words, Burley certainly was not Hurley's type of fighter. It should also be noted that Burley never fought on Chicago boxing cards that Hurley was involved in. Yet Hurley did quite a bit of business with Tommy O'Loughlin, a manager of Burley, over a long span of time.

- Chuck Johnston

Do you think Burley refusing to take dives or enter into dodgy dealing affected his career? He always said he refused to get involved in anything dodgy, it was a shady business in those times, maybe he was black balled to a certain extent?

Controversial wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 10:22

Chuck1052 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 08:20

I don't think there is any question that Charley Burley was being avoided by other fighters, which certainly hampered his ability to get bouts. But all-time great fighters such as Sugar Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong didn't seem to be avoided quite as much when Burley was active. Both Robinson and Armstrong had the advantage of being fine gate attractions while Burley was not. Fighters were willing to get bouts with Robinson or Armstrong because they would have a good chance to get good paydays.

Burley may also have been avoided because of his ability and fighting style. Jack Hurley, the great boxing man, handled Milt Aron, a welterweight from Chicago, for a number of out-of-town bouts. There were plans for Aron to fight in the middleweight division later on. When asked about a possible bout between Aron and Burley, Hurley obviously was very reluctant because he felt that a fighter was likely to look terrible when facing someone like Burley.

During his entire career as a boxing man, Hurley liked fighters who were aggressive. In other words, Burley certainly was not Hurley's type of fighter. It should also be noted that Burley never fought on Chicago boxing cards that Hurley was involved in. Yet Hurley did quite a bit of business with Tommy O'Loughlin, a manager of Burley, over a long span of time.

- Chuck Johnston

Do you think Burley refusing to take dives or enter into dodgy dealing affected his career? He always said he refused to get involved in anything dodgy, it was a shady business in those times, maybe he was black balled to a certain extent?

Burley comes across as a man of great honor and high integrity so that's very possible. I did read that he was offered a Robinson trilogy around 1948 under the condition he had to throw the first one and that he had no assurances that he'd even get a second fight let alone a trilogy. Burley said that Jake Mintz approached him with this information.

As has been covered here, Burley wasn't a great ticket seller as great as he undoubtedly was. I do find it unfair that he never got a title shot. He also wasn't outspoken or charismatic so he had less folks lobbying for him to get his shot. Burley never really blamed Robinson and seemed to take what everyone calls an injustice well saying there wasn't a great deal of money in them fighting each other and something to the affect of "God was asking for one of us to raise our hand and be Sugar and it was him", which I think shows Burley as obviously being the more reserved and quiet man not really into the art of self promotion at a time when being a black man you really needed it.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 11:00

Controversial wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 10:22

Do you think Burley refusing to take dives or enter into dodgy dealing affected his career? He always said he refused to get involved in anything dodgy, it was a shady business in those times, maybe he was black balled to a certain extent?

Burley comes across as a man of great honor and high integrity so that's very possible. I did read that he was offered a Robinson trilogy around 1948 under the condition he had to throw the first one and that he had no assurances that he'd even get a second fight let alone a trilogy. Burley said that Jake Mintz approached him with this information.

As has been covered here, Burley wasn't a great ticket seller as great as he undoubtedly was. I do find it unfair that he never got a title shot. He also wasn't outspoken or charismatic so he had less folks lobbying for him to get his shot. Burley never really blamed Robinson and seemed to take what everyone calls an injustice well saying there wasn't a great deal of money in them fighting each other and something to the affect of "God was asking for one of us to raise our hand and be Sugar and it was him", which I think shows Burley as obviously being the more reserved and quiet man not really into the art of self promotion at a time when being a black man you really needed it.

Yes I've read about the Robinson trilogy offer too, I do think he was pretty much avoided as he was too good and hard to look good against, which is a shame as he hard the ability to be a world champ.

I doubt that Charley Burley was frozen out because he refused to do anything that was shady. Many promoters and matchmakers didn't have Burley on their boxing shows largely because he wasn't much of a gate attraction. One thing that I should mention is that Burley was in quite a few boring bouts during his career. On the other hand, it is very hard to find any of Jake LaMotta's bouts which were boring.

- Chuck Johnston

I guess I am going to play the devils advocate here. He didn't fight Robinson, get a title shot, and didn't fight in some big cities.

However, look at it this way" He had fights with Charles, Moore, Zivic and Bivins. Also with guys like George Abrams and Billy Soose. Not mention many fights with other members of "Murderer's Row". That's a lot of big fights.
He won some and lost some of these and occasionally had a draw.

He also fought in big cities like San Francisco, San Diego, Boston, Baltimore, and New Orleans. Even outdoors at Crosley Field in Cincinnati where the Reds played. Not to mention all those fights in Pittsburgh, including several at Forbes Field. It was not like he couldn't get big fights or was only fighting in podunk towns.

He and Robinson were only in the top 10 in the same weight class for a year. It's not surprising at all that they didn't fight. Burley was never the #1 contender and there was also World War II. It's not surprising at all that he never got a title shot.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Aug 2019, 15:59 However, look at it this way" He had fights with Charles, Moore, Zivic and Bivins. Also with guys like George Abrams and Billy Soose. Not mention many fights with other members of "Murderer's Row". That's a lot of big fights.
He won some and lost some of these and occasionally had a draw.

He also fought in big cities like San Francisco, San Diego, Boston, Baltimore, and New Orleans. Even outdoors at Crosley Field in Cincinnati where the Reds played. Not to mention all those fights in Pittsburgh, including several at Forbes Field. It was not like he couldn't get big fights or was only fighting in podunk towns.

He and Robinson were only in the top 10 in the same weight class for a year. It's not surprising at all that they didn't fight. Burley was never the #1 contender and there was also World War II. It's not surprising at all that he never got a title shot.

The problem with this argument is that its built on hindsight. Soose, Charles, and Bivins were nobodies when Burley fought them and Burley lost three of four fights against them. So not only were those essentially clubfights but he lost most of them.

You mention the fight at Crosley field but neglect to mention that despite being a very attractive card it was a financial bloodbath. The bout grossed $1500 and the promoter lost over $6000. The audiance was less than 1000 at a venue that could accommodate 25,000 for a baseball game to say nothing of the added lawn seating for a boxing match. The fight drew so poorly that the promoter tried to cancel it at the last minute but the local boxing commission forced him to go through with it since he had posted a bond ensuring the card would take place. The following month Ezzard Charles and Steve Mamakos fought at the same field under a different promoter and only drew a gate of about $2,000 resulting in a $4200 loss for that promoter. So you can see that even though these guys were getting opportunities to shine they didnt.

Drawing 1000 fans to a 25,000 seat house isnt going to bring promoters running for your services. Getting booed on national radio while fighting a showcase on the undercard of Sugar Ray Robinson is not going to get people enthusiastic for your services. Of all the places you mention Burley fighting Boston was the biggest place to jump off into the booming East Coast market. Burley fought there one time in an 8 rounder on a Zivic undercard against an unknown and literally got a one sentence mention in the Boston Globe. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. San Diego, San Francisco, Baltimore, and New Orleans were good fight towns in terms hosting regular fights i.e. steady paydays and competitive matches but they were islands unto themselves. They werent staging regular big fights or championships. They were developing talent that then went on to major markets to make a go of it. Going to those places may have gotten you steady fights and competitive matches that developed your skills but they werent going to make anyone sit up and demand a title shot for you. That happened when you moved East and fought in New York, Chicago, Detroit, etc. All of those guys like Moore, Charles, etc those guys didnt get the recognition they deserved and the demand for title shots until they did that. Burley never did that and the largest reason why is because he couldnt draw flies. Period. The few times he fought out east he didnt light the world on fire. All of the above, posted to illustrate that he was getting showcases is actually more evidence of how he fought his way out of contention with an uncompelling style and poor career choices. Even in his hometown, and Ive made this point umpteen times he wasnt popular.

You make mention of his several fights at Forbes Field. Consider this: His first fight at Forbes Field was against Zivic who was the draw in that pairing and that was on a card that featured Angott, Sarron, and Yarosz as well. That was the only way Burley ever drew, to stack the card. But in front of that nice crowd Burley and Zivic fought a stinker and were booed throughout. Sammy Angott stole the show. Burley's next bout was also in Forbes Field on another stacked card that drew well. The main event was Apostoli-Lee but also featured Angott, Overlin, Burley, Leto (again, the only way Burley ever saw a big gate). The newspapers said the audience booed throughout most of Burley's fight demanding more action. Again, two of Burley's biggest showcases and hes getting booed for lack of action. Burley didnt fight again in Forbes Field until three years later. He was facing Ezzard Charles, a largely unknown 19 year old high schooler who took the fight on a weeks notice as a late sub for Ken Overlin. Burley and Charles stole the show but Burley was dropped and clearly beaten in the fight. So the best showcase he had in Forbes Field to date was in a losing effort. After losing the rematch to Charles Burley didnt fight in Pittsburgh for three years. When he returned he fought on the undercard of Bivins-Hatchetman Sheppard knocking out unknown Oscar Boyd. The newspapers mention that the fans didnt think the knockout looked legit. Burley had one more fight at Forbes Field a month after his fight with Boyd. He won a decision over Aaron Tiger Wade in the walkout bout of Angott-Burton and was booed throughout for lack of action. So 3 of the 5 bouts Burley fought in Forbes Field were booed by the fans, one had a suspicious looking ending to the fans, and the other he lost. Four of them were undercard bouts and in none of them would Burley have been considered the draw. Not exactly the best way to go about demanding big fights against the best names.

I can sort of read this with the giant paragraphs.

We can nitpick this to death, but it is an exaggeration to say that opponents didn't fight Burley because he was not a draw.

Ezzard Charles was not a nobody when they fought in 1942. He was already regarded as one of the top fighters in thew world.
Soose and Bivins were just prospects, but you could also argue that shows that Burley could raw against a non big name.

As mentioned before Archie Moore, Zviic, Abrams were well known fighters.

He also fought Holman Williams several times, as well as Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Jimmy Leto, and Cocoa Kid. All were well known contenders when he fought them.

If he was such a poor draw, he would not have gotton all these fights. Obviously he was no Ray Robinson at the box office. However, he was enough of a draw that promoters wanted him over and over.

There were a lot of very fighters at welterweight and middleweight when Burley fought. Some he fought and some he didn't. Some that he fought he beat, and other he lost to.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑26 Aug 2019, 16:06 We can nitpick this to death, but it is an exaggeration to say that opponents didn't fight Burley because he was not a draw.

Its not an exaggeration at all. Its a simple fact thats fairly easily verifiable. The money wasnt behind Burley. If you dont have the backing of a promoter offering money for your services then you arent getting the big fights. You can get all the ratings you want in the 1930s and 1940s (and Burley was never rated #1 by the NBA during that period) but without people actually paying to see you fight you arent getting anywhere. Its a nice narrative for Burley to claim he was feared by everyone but that simply doesnt wash when compared with other uber talented black fighters who actually got big fights and opportunities.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑26 Aug 2019, 16:06 Ezzard Charles was not a nobody when they fought in 1942. He was already regarded as one of the top fighters in thew world.

Ezzard Charles was 19 years old, would graduate from High School the night he defeated Burley and only had 25 fights to his name. He had fought only four fighters who were anywhere near ranked in five fights and had gone 2-2-1 in those fights and was coming off a loss and had taken the fight with Burley on a weeks notice. So lets not get carried away. The 19 year old Charles, coming off a loss and taking the fight on short notice was not the 1947 Charles by a damn sight. Like I said, hindsight is twenty twenty here.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑26 Aug 2019, 16:06 Soose and Bivins were just prospects, but you could also argue that shows that Burley could raw against a non big name.

Could draw? The Bivins fight drew just over 1500 to a venue that could seat more than 5,000. The gross was $2302.92 and the net was $1893. Do the math on that and youll see Burley was basically fighting for nothing. You were making the point that Burley could get fights with big names and used Soose and Bivins as an example. Those guys werent big names and had nothing to lose by fighting him. The Soose fight drew a decent gate (not earth shattering by any stretch) because Soose had a following in Pennsylvania based on his collegiate record but he had nothing to lose by fighting. He couldnt yet demand high purses, he wasnt rated, he wasnt well known outside of Pennsylvania, particularly not as a professional and as such he was the perfect opponent for Burley at that point. A guy who could bring a modest fan base but couldnt yet demand high purses for it.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑26 Aug 2019, 16:06 As mentioned before Archie Moore, Zviic, Abrams were well known fighters.

And as mentioned above the Moore fight was fought way out west far away from where Burley could have actually built himself into a draw worthy of demanding big fights out east against the champions (a fact that Moore eventually realized as well), the Zivic fights were hardly artistic successes and needed Zivic to draw and the Abrams fight he didnt even win and only drew an average gate with one of the divisions star fighters. You arent proving your point here that Burley was making a case for himself to the fans.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑26 Aug 2019, 16:06 He also fought Holman Williams several times, as well as Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Jimmy Leto, and Cocoa Kid. All were well known contenders when he fought them.

If he was such a poor draw, he would not have gotton all these fights. Obviously he was no Ray Robinson at the box office. However, he was enough of a draw that promoters wanted him over and over.

LOL really? Were Marshall, Chase, Leto, and Cocoa Kid huge draws that could demand high purses? No. Not hardly. They were like Burley, fighting for peanuts, mostly in the hinterlands, hoping to get noticed and again, Burley wasnt exactly dominant over any of these guys. He essentially split series with all of them except Chase who was the least known and worst one of the bunch. So what is the argument here? That when he stepped up he was less impressive and should have gotten a fight with the big boys?? Puzzling argument. You say he was in demand by promoters over and over but that simply isnt born out by the facts. Burley had to move and relocate numerous times because he couldnt get fights. The biggest complaint of his entire career was that he couldnt get fights. He had to work full time to make ends meet. He wasnt making money as a fighter. Somehow you extrapolate that to him being in demand? If a guy is selling his services for nothing then his services arent in demand. Thats the most basic rule of supply and demand.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑26 Aug 2019, 16:06There were a lot of very fighters at welterweight and middleweight when Burley fought. Some he fought and some he didn't. Some that he fought he beat, and other he lost to.

Exactly my point. He was never the dominant force hes made out to be and he was never ducked out of fear as his fans and he would have had everyone believe. You can pull the odd fight out of his career that without a strong card made a modest gate. But pulling a fight here and there out of your ass that he drew a $3000 gate or a $5000 gate still doesnt bridge the gap to be able to demand a championship for ANY reason when you arent #1. Burley draws a $5000 gross in one of the best gates of his entire life and what, hes going to demand a fight with Henry Armstrong or Fritzie Zivic who are pulling down $20,000+ as their purse nevermind the gates they are bringing in. Where does this monopoly money you are coming up with get printed to support a Burley challenge??

I hate to break this to you but while you are so impressed with Burley fighting Holman Williams in outdoor ballparks I want to point out some numbers to you to illustrate how inconsequential that was beyond what a bunch of hipster revisionists today would like to believe: Burley fought Williams in an outdoor ballpark in Cincinnati that seated well over 25,000 when outfitted for boxing matches. The fight drew less than 1000 fans and made just over $1500 gross. Sugar Ray Robinson fought Marty Servo in Madison Square Garden, an indoor arena, the month before and the gross gate was over $31,000 before an audience of over 13,000. Charley Burley would have thought he died and went to heaven with a gate like that. The only time he saw gates that size was when he was fighting on the undercards of fighters like Robinson, Zivic, and Armstrong (and he was often stinking out the joint on such cards). BUT, hes supposed to just be able to demand a title shot despite not being rated as the top contender??? Get fornicating real.

The same month Burley and Williams were fighting for peanuts down in New Orleans Robinson and LaMotta were each paid $15,000 apiece to fight each other. You could add up several dozen of Burley's purses and you wouldnt get to $15,000. You could count on one hand the number of times he ever appeared on a card that paid out $30,000 to only two of the participants (if he EVER appeared on such a card and he certainly was never the headliner). The guy did not draw. Period. You can fool yourself into believing he did but he didnt. Robinson wasnt even asking career high paydays to fight him despite what Burley's fanboys will tell you. In the mid 1940s Robinson told Burley if he could get a promoter to put up a $10,000 purse for Robinson, who had made bigger purses, he would fight Burley. Burley's manager admitted this but they couldnt come up with the cash and they couldnt find a promoter who would either. That tells you all you need to know. Burley had a track record of not being able to draw and not being able to deliver. He could not reliably be counted on to pull fans in because his style was consistently called boring and was booed on a regular basis. So no promoter was going to put up a huge guarantee to draw a big name opponent to fight him on the chance that the fans dont come out because of Burley and no fighter who can pull down big guarantees is going to fight Burley on a percentage basis when there is a chance that theyd be getting 50% (at most) of a $1500 gate. In what universe is anyone but Burley to blame for that scenario??? Thats how promoters and fighters lose money and no smart fighter or smart promoter is going down that road.

Jack Hurley, the great all-around boxing man, gave an interesting observation about Charley Burley when he and Milt Aron were interviewed by Havey Boyle for the latter's column that appeared in the September 11, 1941 edition of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Aron was a welterweight based in Chicago and had a rematch with Fritzie Zivic that took place on a big all-star boxing card at Forbes Field a few days later. In the rematch, Zivic would knock out Aron in the fifth round. The first bout between Aron and Zivic was an absolute thriller that Aron won by a knockout in the eighth round after being knocked down himself four times at the Coliseum in Chicago during late 1939.

When interviewed by Boyle, Aron stated that he was thinking about fighting middleweights such as Tony Zale, Georgie Abrams and Billy Soose in the future. He felt that his punching power would enable him to do it. When the name of Burley came up, Hurley "could see no real objection to such a fight," but then said that Burley is a hard fellow to make a showing with because he's "cute," Hurley added that Aron would rather fight punchers.

- Chuck Johnston

I dunno. Burley scored 50 KO's in his career, he had to have some power. Besides, it's not like there haven't been "cuties" that drew crowds.

As for Klompton's dissertation:
First and for most, I don't see how in the world Ezzard Charles could be considered a nobody when he fought Burley. This is not hindsight. This is just looking at the facts.
Ring Magazine had Charles as the #2 contender at the time he fought Burley. Charles had already fought Teddy Yarosz, Ken Overlin (2x) and Anton Christoforidos.
Any serious boxing fan would have at least heard of Charles by this point.

I don't think he was feared by the top fighters. I have said many times that I don't think that was the case. I have been saying that he was a great fighter in a great era (for his weight classes) who was unlucky to get a title shot. I don't think he was nearly as good as Ray Robinson and don't believe that Robinson (or some other fighters for that matter) were afraid at all to fight him.
I am just saying that he Burley being "box office poison" or whatever was not the reason he never got a title shot or didn't fight Robinson.

You can go on and on about this fight or that fight. The bottom line he had a lot of big fights. He had a lot of fights in major cities. If he really was such a boring fighter then promoters would not have signed him over and over and over.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Aug 2019, 11:27 I dunno. Burley scored 50 KO's in his career, he had to have some power. Besides, it's not like there haven't been "cuties" that drew crowds.

As for Klompton's dissertation:
First and for most, I don't see how in the world Ezzard Charles could be considered a nobody when he fought Burley. This is not hindsight. This is just looking at the facts.
Ring Magazine had Charles as the #2 contender at the time he fought Burley. Charles had already fought Teddy Yarosz, Ken Overlin (2x) and Anton Christoforidos.
Any serious boxing fan would have at least heard of Charles by this point.

I don't think he was feared by the top fighters. I have said many times that I don't think that was the case. I have been saying that he was a great fighter in a great era (for his weight classes) who was unlucky to get a title shot. I don't think he was nearly as good as Ray Robinson and don't believe that Robinson (or some other fighters for that matter) were afraid at all to fight him.
I am just saying that he Burley being "box office poison" or whatever was not the reason he never got a title shot or didn't fight Robinson.

You can go on and on about this fight or that fight. The bottom line he had a lot of big fights. He had a lot of fights in major cities. If he really was such a boring fighter then promoters would not have signed him over and over and over.

I am aware that Charley Burley was a good puncher, but I simply was writing about what Jack Hurley was saying about Burley. In regards to Ezzard Charles, he had never fought in Pittsburgh until he had his first bout with Burley. As a result, the Pittsburgh boxing fans were not that familiar with Charles up to that time. Ken Overlin, the fighter that Charles was a substitute for, had fought a number of times in Pittsburgh. But Charles would go on to be quite popular in the city.

- Chuck Johnston

The rematch between Ezzard Charles and Charley Burley took place at Hickey Park in Millvale, Pennsylvania on June 29, 1942. Charles, at 160 pounds, won by a decision for a second time over Burley, at 151 pounds, in a bout that was much less exciting than the first one between the two fighters. At this point in his career, Charles appears to have been a more aggressive and exciting fighter that he would be as a heavyweight while Burley seemed to wanting to go the distance. After this second loss to Charles, Burley seemed resigned to the fact that he couldn't beat him while citing the weight difference. The gross gate for the second bout was $6,831. which was a record for Hickey Park., with the net gate being $6,193.38. The total attendance was 3,951 while the paid attendance was 3,759. The purses for the main event boxers totaled $3,250.

- Chuck Johnston

Note- For a "stand-alone" main event featuring Burley in the Pittsburgh area, the gross gate of the rematch between Charles and Burley was an impressive one. Of course, fans were interested in seeing the rematch after the exciting first bout between the two boxers. It is interesting to note that the first bout took place on an all-star card that had a gross gate of over $30,000. at Forbes Field while the rematch took place at a much smaller venue.

Despite Burley's style being so dull and despite him being a terrible draw, the fact is that Robinson turned down a very good purse to fight him.

What are the facts of? How much? When was the fight offered? When was it supposed to take place? Where? what weight?

25 Grand. 1946 in Pittsburgh.

Robinson had like 15 fights in 1946. Burley had several himself. They weren't in the same weight class. This just seems like a non-starter from the word go. Makes a great story though.

goose 5 wrote: ↑29 Aug 2019, 19:14 25 Grand. 1946 in Pittsburgh.

I doubt if Sugar Ray Robinson received a serious offer of a $25,000. guarantee to fight Charley Burley in Pittsburgh during 1946. It would have been a tremendous gamble for a promoter to make such a huge offer to a boxer to fight Burley in a non-title bout in Pittsburgh, especially when Burley was a dismal drawing card in the city during his entire career. Also keep in mind that the largest gate for a boxing show staged in Pittsburgh was probably a little less than $70,000. up until that time.

I am not arguing that Burley wasn't a truly great fighter. He certainly was one. But professional boxing is a business. Burley being a great fighter didn't amount a hill of beans for him at the box office, which is the main reason why he didn't get lucrative bouts or a world title shot.

- Chuck Johnston

During 1946, Charley Burley had three bouts in the Pittsburgh area.

At the Aragon Gardens in Pittsburgh on March 15, 1946, Burley scored a technical knockout over Charley Dodson in the third round. The gross gate was $2,253.16 while the attendance was 1,602. In fairness, the attendance was one of the largest at the venue.

At the Zivic Arena (originally Hickey Park) in Millvale on July 16, 1946, Burley won a decision in a ten-round bout with Charley Banks Although the bout wasn't a "good to watch," it wasn't a bad one. But there had been "two classy prelims" took place on the show, making the Burley-Banks bout pale in comparison. The net gate was $6,157. while the attendance was 4,103.

At the Zivic Arena in Millvale on August 5, 1946, Burley won an unanimous decision in a ten-round bout with Bert Lytell. The bout was considered a "ho-hum" one. According to the ringside report in the Pittsburgh Press, it wasn't until the fourth round that "Burley solve Lytell's crouching style." Throwing a left hook to the stomach turned the bout in favor of Burley. But Lytell "found Burley equally difficult to coax into a fighting mood." Burley did just enough to win the decision. The gross gate was $5,151.60. while the net was $4,431.58. The attendance was 2,930.

- Chuck Johnston