BoxRec

dalcumly wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 06:36 I have been a great Patterson fan since I first saw him fight, unfortunately the first Liston fight!! That fight caused me to follow him due to sympathy and his likeable mature.
A brief story. Well known London manager and trainer, Dennie Mancini told me this. He had been in Sweden on the night of the Ellis fight with a British boxer. He had met Patterson several times when he had been in London ,most recently for the Cooper fight in 1966. He knew him well.
Dennie said that in the airport the following morning he saw Patterson sitting alone in the departure lounge and went over to speak to him. Dennie said there was clearly something wrong with Patterson( mentally). He had no idea who Dennie was and could hardly string some words together. Dennie, reluctantly, thought he was 'punchy'.
However I've seen dozens of later interviews with Floyd when he was clearly very lucid, even long after he'd retired and was training his adopted son.
By the way in October last year I surprisingly won at auction a pair of Patterson gloves from a fight in NYC. Since I've got them I've done much more research and I strongly believe they might have been worn in his last fight with Ali.

He must have been concussed or hung over. He was lucid even in the early 90s.

Scypion wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 18:53 Ellis wasn't as fast as Patterson or Ali, but he was faster than any other heavyweight from that era as far as I know.

Prime Patterson beats prime Ellis at heavyweight or light heavyweight, IMO. However, I believe that Ellis could have won the Light heavyweight title assuming that Patterson stays at heavyweight. I believe that Ellis could have beaten any light heavyweight of that era. The toughest would be Foster, but I think Ellis beats him too although it would be tougher at light heavyweight.

So, what about a light heavyweight fight between Jimmy Ellis and Bob Foster? Ellis first fought light heavyweight about mid 1965 after fighting about 4 years in the middleweight division. Despite straining to make weight in the 160 lb. division, which must have weakened him, Jimmy was never stopped during those four years. That was despite being thrown in very soon after turning pro against the likes of contenders Holly Mims (twice), Henry Hanks, Don Fullmer, Wilf Greaves, George Benton, and Carter. He was only knocked down once by Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.

Jimmy Ellis was not knocked down again until his ill fated fight with Joe Frazier in 1970. He had a good chin. That could come in handy in a light heavyweight fight with Foster, because Bob Foster had a devastating punch at 175 lbs. if not in the heavyweight division.

Ellis had a pretty good punch himself and had a lot of one round KO's. He was very fast as well and it was had to avoid his quick right hand that decked many a fighter. I don't think that Jimmy would have had a difficult time staying at 175 lbs. after 1965 when he had spent four years fighting at 160.

With his speed and power and chin, I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have been more than a match for Bob Foster, even at light heavyweight.

Jimmy Ellis had quite a good amateur record. He won 59 out of 66 amateur bouts, Ellis won the 1960 Intercity Golden Gloves Championship in the middleweight division. He also won the 1961 Chicago Tournament of Champions in the middleweight division. Jimmy lost in the 1960 Olympic Trials to Wilbert McClure. McClure went on to win a gold medal in the Olympics. McClure was probably the best middle division amateur boxer of that era winning the National AAU Championship twice, the Pan American Games Championship, the Intercity Golden Gloves Championship twice, and other things.






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Plympic Trials

Scypion wrote: ↑17 Apr 2020, 19:13

Scypion wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 18:53 Ellis wasn't as fast as Patterson or Ali, but he was faster than any other heavyweight from that era as far as I know.

Prime Patterson beats prime Ellis at heavyweight or light heavyweight, IMO. However, I believe that Ellis could have won the Light heavyweight title assuming that Patterson stays at heavyweight. I believe that Ellis could have beaten any light heavyweight of that era. The toughest would be Foster, but I think Ellis beats him too although it would be tougher at light heavyweight.

So, what about a light heavyweight fight between Jimmy Ellis and Bob Foster? Ellis first fought light heavyweight about mid 1965 after fighting about 4 years in the middleweight division. Despite straining to make weight in the 160 lb. division, which must have weakened him, Jimmy was never stopped during those four years. That was despite being thrown in very soon after turning pro against the likes of contenders Holly Mims (twice), Henry Hanks, Don Fullmer, Wilf Greaves, George Benton, and Carter. He was only knocked down once by Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.

Jimmy Ellis was not knocked down again until his ill fated fight with Joe Frazier in 1970. He had a good chin. That could come in handy in a light heavyweight fight with Foster, because Bob Foster had a devastating punch at 175 lbs. if not in the heavyweight division.

Ellis had a pretty good punch himself and had a lot of one round KO's. He was very fast as well and it was had to avoid his quick right hand that decked many a fighter. I don't think that Jimmy would have had a difficult time staying at 175 lbs. after 1965 when he had spent four years fighting at 160.

With his speed and power and chin, I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have been more than a match for Bob Foster, even at light heavyweight.

The truth is that we don't know how good Ellis would have been at light heavyweight. It would make sense that he could have fought and done well at light heavy at least for a few years, before moving up to light heavyweight. However, we are guessing at how good he would have been.
Ellis occasionally landed a sneaky right hand, but he was by no means at big puncher. I don't know if he could hurt Foster. At 175, Foster was a different animal than at heavyweight. Maybe he could outbox him, maybe not.

Bob Foster was one of the very best light heavyweight champions of all time. Top 5. I guess I would be very hesitant to pick someone over him unless they were a proven commodity.

Of course, we don't know what would happen if Ellis fought Foster at light heavy. We never do know until they fight. I believe that Jimmy and Patterson as well would have excelled at 175 lbs. I could be wrong, but I believe that light heavy would be the best weight for Ellis. Patterson was doing pretty well at light heavyweight before he became the heavyweight champion at 21 years of age. About the only thing that could have stopped him from becoming light heavyweight champion is if Archie Moore would not have agreed to defend against Floyd.
Jimmy Ellis fought four years as a middleweight which was the wrong division for him, IMO. Heavyweight was also wrong despite his successes in that division. Jimmy was small at heavyweight with fighters getting bigger. I believe that light heavy would have been perfect for Ellis. I can see where he would want to fight heavyweight as the money would be better if he was successful and he would never have to worry about making weight.
Foster was smart to stay at light heavy. He could not seem to beat the better heavyweights and the competition was much easier at 175 lbs. I don't believe that Foster beat anybody that Jimmy Ellis could not have beaten. I would definetely (spelling?) put Michael Spinks over Foster on an all-time list because Spinks moved up and was successful as a heavyweight. Same as Charles. Jimmy Ellis was too, but he never proved himself as a light heavy. I believe he could have, but there is no way to really tell for sure.

Jimmy Ellis had 53 fights with 24 KO's. His first 20 bouts were at middleweight where he had 6 KO's, so he did better after he left the Middleweight division as far as KO's go. 11 of Jimmy's KO's were in the first round and 4 were in the second round. Most of his early KO's were against fighters that were not contenders, but he did KO up and coming Johnny Persol in the first round and also stopped Leotis Martin (9th rounds I think). Leotis Martin was a contender, had an outstanding amateur career (National AAU champ, other amateur titles), and Leotis is the guy that KO'd Sonny Liston in 1969. No, Jimmy Ellis is not the hard hitter that Joe Frazier and George Foreman were, but who were. With his hand speed, Jimmy could land more than a few of his overhand right hand punches over a 10 round or more rounds. Of course, sometimes he did not need 10 rounds.

Another reason that I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have excelled in the light heavyweight division during his prime years is that I don't think that the 175 lb. division was very strong at that time. It was a far cry from the 40's when you had guys like Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, Elmer Ray, Eddie Booker, etc. About the only light heavy that I believe would have had a chance to beat Ellis was Bob Foster, IMO, during Jimmy's prime years. I really wish that Foster fought Ellis in 1969.

So, what would have happened if Bob Foster had challenged Jimmy Ellis for the WBA Heavyweight title in 1969? I believe that judging from how Foster had done against other heavyweight contenders, Ellis would not only beat Foster but probably would have knocked him out. If that happened, would Foster still be in the IBHOF? Maybe not. At least not in the first class (1990). How would that have affected Ellis? Maybe he would have had a better chance for the IBHOF. Something to think about.

Judging from the latest BoxRec HOF balloting, it doesn't look like Jimmy Ellis will be in our HOF any time soon if ever, or even the IBHOF. Here are some things working against him:

1. Maybe the biggest thing was his defense of his WBA title against Floyd Patterson. So many people think it was a bad decision that they almost automatically disliked Jimmy as a result, even though he was WBA champ and got the decision over Floyd. That seems to be held against him.

2. His fights with Joe Frazier, especially the first one in 1970. People seem to remember him more for that and the Patterson fight than for any other fights that he had.

3. His being completely overshadowed by Muhammad Ali as was everyone else . I think that his defeat at Ali's hands was hard on Jimmy. That was the final straw as Ellis, being overshadowed by Muhammad for his entire career, got beat by Ali and Ali looked completely superior in the fight and even clowned around a little in winning. They were friends and stablemates, but Jimmy was definitely the second or even third banana in their camp.

The thing about it is that Jimmy Ellis was a very good boxer, had a good chin (Knocked out by only Frazier, Ali, and Shavers; no disgrace there), had power in both hands, was as fast as anyone in his division outside of Ali and Patterson.

During his prime years (late 60's, early 70's), he was the best heavyweight around except for superstars Frazier and Ali. Bad luck to be around the same time as those two.

The heavyweight division may have been the most lucrative division, but the light heavyweight division may have been the easier route to the IBHOF or any HOF. I doubt that Willie Pastrano or Bob Foster would have ended up in the IBHOF if they fought mostly as heavyweights. Pastrano did fight heavyweight for a few years and did get to be ranked in the top 10 in that division, but no title shot. Willie said that he decided to drop down to light heavyweight when he saw Sonny Liston fight. I doubt very much that Pastrano ever wins any version of the heavyweight title even if Liston never came along.

I can't believe that Jimmy Ellis would not have been a great light heavyweight or could not beat any boxer that Bob Foster beat. Jimmy did fight 2 fights at 176 lbs. after spending 4 years fighting at middleweight (160 lbs.). I have no doubt that Ellis could have stayed as a light heavyweight if he wanted to. Maybe Angelo Dundee wanted Jimmy Ellis to fight heavyweight to be a good sparring partner for Muhammad Ali, or maybe it was Jimmy's idea to move up to heavyweight. Ellis may have made more money at heavyweight, but not sure as it turned out.

I doubt that Jimmy Ellis would have ever been ko'd or stopped if he had stayed in the light heavyweight division. After all, his only stoppages were against Ali, Frazier, and Shavers, three heavyweights who were bigger than him. Ali and Frazier were two of the greatest heavyweights of all time and Shavers was one of the hardest hitters. Actually. most of Jimmy's fights at heavyweight were against bigger fighters (Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, George Chuvalo, Larry Middleton, Boone Kirkman, Oscar Bonavena, etc.). The nice thing about fighting in the 175 lb. division is that he would have been fighting boxers who were his own size.