BoxRec

Nile4000 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 20:36 Leon had been through some things when he fought Larry in 1981. And Emanuel himself said the real reason the Hearns fight was cancelled was due to the fact they knew they couldn't take Marvelous Marvin. .

gilgamesh wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 18:20

Tony1244 wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 13:30 Interesting question. It would have to effect his all time ranking. I rank him the #1 HW, but one round scored differently in that fight would frankly effect Ali's ranking.

The only thing you'd need is honest judging. Norton won that fight going away.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:25

gilgamesh wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 18:20

The only thing you'd need is honest judging. Norton won that fight going away.

If Norton had gotten the deserved decision it would have altered Ali's place as "The Greatest."

Another close call that would have altered history: if Lyle had beaten Foreman. Would the Foreman Grill and Meineke Commercials ever happened?

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:25

gilgamesh wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 18:20

The only thing you'd need is honest judging. Norton won that fight going away.

If Norton had gotten the deserved decision it would have altered Ali's place as "The Greatest."

Another close call that would have altered history: if Lyle had beaten Foreman. Would the Foreman Grill and Meineke Commercials ever happened?

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:41

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:25

If Norton had gotten the deserved decision it would have altered Ali's place as "The Greatest."

Another close call that would have altered history: if Lyle had beaten Foreman. Would the Foreman Grill and Meineke Commercials ever happened?

That's true. And not much people really understand this cituation. To put it mildly, that win was very unconvincing (I even scored it clearly for Kenny). However, that win still works positively for Ali's resume and boosts his greatness. That's a shame.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 20:36 Leon had been through some things when he fought Larry in 1981. And Emanuel himself said the real reason the Hearns fight was cancelled was due to the fact they knew they couldn't take Marvelous Marvin. .

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:35

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:25

If Norton had gotten the deserved decision it would have altered Ali's place as "The Greatest."

Another close call that would have altered history: if Lyle had beaten Foreman. Would the Foreman Grill and Meineke Commercials ever happened?

If Foreman had never beat Michael Moorer he wouldn't have gotten those endorsement deals.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 20:33

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:52
Leon beating Holmes in 79 is inconceivable, he wouldn't beat Tate, Norton or Shavers either.

Lesser fighters have beaten Shavers. Norton was on the downside. And Tate, though good, didn't have the strongest punch. Things could happen.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:35

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:25

If Norton had gotten the deserved decision it would have altered Ali's place as "The Greatest."

Another close call that would have altered history: if Lyle had beaten Foreman. Would the Foreman Grill and Meineke Commercials ever happened?

If Foreman had never beat Michael Moorer he wouldn't have gotten those endorsement deals.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:41

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:35

If Foreman had never beat Michael Moorer he wouldn't have gotten those endorsement deals.

I believe he got some endorsement deals before then, when he started eating cheeseburgers in press conferences and making fun of himself. But if he had lost to Lyl, and he nearly did I wonder if he would have spiraled out of control.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:42

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:35

If Foreman had never beat Michael Moorer he wouldn't have gotten those endorsement deals.

He was a desired spokesperson before that.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:44

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:41

I believe he got some endorsement deals before then, when he started eating cheeseburgers in press conferences and making fun of himself. But if he had lost to Lyl, and he nearly did I wonder if he would have spiraled out of control.

I mean, losing to Jimmy Young was probably more embarrassing than losing to Lyle would've been. Losing to anybody in an all out war isn't the end of the world.

Jimmy Young embarrassed him. Bad enough that he just gave it up for a long time.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:39

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 10:41

That's true. And not much people really understand this cituation. To put it mildly, that win was very unconvincing (I even scored it clearly for Kenny). However, that win still works positively for Ali's resume and boosts his greatness. That's a shame.

Ali is still Top 2 all time with or without the win in the 3rd fight over Norton.

Now if he'd lost the Thrilla in Manilla it might've affected him worse.

Norton would definitely be seen more favorably by history with a 2nd win over Ali.

To me I do look at the 3rd Norton/Ali fight as a clear Norton victory and I still see Ali as 1 or 1a with Joe Louis.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:56

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:44

I mean, losing to Jimmy Young was probably more embarrassing than losing to Lyle would've been. Losing to anybody in an all out war isn't the end of the world.

Jimmy Young embarrassed him. Bad enough that he just gave it up for a long time.

We don't know what would have happened if GF's fight with Lyle had been a KO4 or KO5 for Lyle. Foreman still looked shaky at the start of the 5th. He may have started his exile earlier. Foreman saw himself as THE Puncher. Hard for me to conceive of him continuing if he had lost at his own game.

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:57

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:39

Ali is still Top 2 all time with or without the win in the 3rd fight over Norton.

Now if he'd lost the Thrilla in Manilla it might've affected him worse.

Norton would definitely be seen more favorably by history with a 2nd win over Ali.

To me I do look at the 3rd Norton/Ali fight as a clear Norton victory and I still see Ali as 1 or 1a with Joe Louis.

I see Lennox Lewis as #1.

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:57

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:39

Ali is still Top 2 all time with or without the win in the 3rd fight over Norton.

Now if he'd lost the Thrilla in Manilla it might've affected him worse.

Norton would definitely be seen more favorably by history with a 2nd win over Ali.

To me I do look at the 3rd Norton/Ali fight as a clear Norton victory and I still see Ali as 1 or 1a with Joe Louis.

I see Lennox Lewis as #1.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:09

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:57

I see Lennox Lewis as #1.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:13

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:57

I see Lennox Lewis as #1.

Lennox is definitely one of those guys that I can see giving most anyone a hard time, but I can't rank his achievements as #1. He's Top 10 though all day, and you could easily argue Top 5.

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:15

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:13

Lennox is definitely one of those guys that I can see giving most anyone a hard time, but I can't rank his achievements as #1. He's Top 10 though all day, and you could easily argue Top 5.

I don't see anyone winning prime Lewis.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:17

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:15

I don't see anyone winning prime Lewis.

I mean I saw him get beat twice by guys that aren't all time Top 40 so I can sure see it.

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:20

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:17

I mean I saw him get beat twice by guys that aren't all time Top 40 so I can sure see it.

Everyone had their lowlights, everyone had their drawbacks. The thing is with Lewis, his main drawback was in underestimating opponents and going to fights out of shape. But when Lewis was well-prepared, he was superb. In all his big fights he was like that.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:07

Tony1244 wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 13:56

We don't know what would have happened if GF's fight with Lyle had been a KO4 or KO5 for Lyle. Foreman still looked shaky at the start of the 5th. He may have started his exile earlier. Foreman saw himself as THE Puncher. Hard for me to conceive of him continuing if he had lost at his own game.

I mean it would've been the same as losing to Jimmy Young really. He struggled with Ron for the same reason he lost to Jimmy I think. His confidence was shattered.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:23

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:20

Everyone had their lowlights, everyone had their drawbacks. The thing is with Lewis, his main drawback was in underestimating opponents and going to fights out of shape. But when Lewis was well-prepared, he was superb. In all his big fights he was like that.

Like I say, I can always see Lennox holding his own with most anybody.

I personally wouldn't rank him #1 just because he doesn't have enough high profile wins to put him there. I mean you could argue his resume isn't as good as Holyfield's from the same era. Even though he beat Holyfield.

DrDuke wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:33

gilgamesh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 14:23

Like I say, I can always see Lennox holding his own with most anybody.

I personally wouldn't rank him #1 just because he doesn't have enough high profile wins to put him there. I mean you could argue his resume isn't as good as Holyfield's from the same era. Even though he beat Holyfield.

Yeah, if to close eyes on Lewis-Holyfield bouts, Holyfield's resume seems to be a bit better, majorly because he has wins over Bowe and the better version of Tyson. But they both has terrific resumes. I'd say, the 90s presented the highest concentration of talents and tough challenges, the competitors became bigger, badder, more advanced. Holyfield and Lewis beat the best opposition back then and symbolically meet at the end of the decade to determine, who is the King of this era. We know, what happened after that. And Lewis even reigned further. That's why Lewis is the best ever, by my vision.