BoxRec

vidal wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 06:23

his response should be this:

I love this one. I use it frequently.

SteveDow wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 05:28 https://www.BS.com/andre-ward-lot-froch ... ay--149439

This will really grate on Froch won't it?! Have to say I do agree with Ward though. He would certainly have lost the Taylor fight but for Taylor having faded, arguably lost the Dirrell fight and the Groves 1 stoppage was very controversial. Also perhaps his wins over Bute and a faded Kessler are overrated. Pascal and Abraham are his best wins in my view.

Thoughts?

Hmm. Ward was a brilliant fighter but I could never warm to him. He wasted a lot of his prime fighting his promoter in court rather than anybody in the ring and took some genuinely pathetic opponents, like Paul Smith. Both his wins over Kovalev are dodgy and he always had the deck stacked in his favour. Did he ever fight out of the US? It was hard enough to get him to fight outside Oakland. He's also the dirtiest recent p4p fighter I can think of. It's undeniable that he did a number on Kessler with his head and he bollock-punched Kovalev to death in the rematch. I don't mind a bit of the rough stuff in a fight and to me, he was a clearly a bad motherfucker and I bet an excellent street fighter who knew all the tricks which made his aloof God-bod persona all the more grating.

He beat Froch easily. The only thing Froch was able to do was keep Andre working to the point where I think he at one point looked at the clock to see how long he had left.

I'm not sure about Froch being an overachiever. He achieved an awful lot, but he couldn't beat Ward so it seems strange that Ward wants to twist the knife with Carl. There's always going to be animosity between them which is silly, but Ward won so wide, and cleanly, against Froch that I don't know why he even bothers with him.

Cyclops wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 07:13

I'm not sure about Froch being an overachiever. He achieved an awful lot, but he couldn't beat Ward so it seems strange that Ward wants to twist the knife with Carl. There's always going to be animosity between them which is silly, but Ward won so wide, and cleanly, against Froch that I don't know why he even bothers with him.

yeah it's like they mutually bring out the snide in each other

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 05:31 Ward also thinks Usyk (aka nothing special, Bellew beats him), GGG, and Loma are overrated ...does he have something for whitebois? lol jkjk

But he's right in that at least Froch got the most of himself, more than I ever thought he would.

Its very rich for Andre Ward to say GGG is overrated, given he must have turned down the fight a load of times. If he thought, that he should have proved it.

Noxy wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 06:24 Yeah, same. I’m not going to knock Froch. He proved better than I‘d thought he was, so fair play to him.

Yeah I never thought Froch would get anywhere near as far as he did with his leaky defence. He was one tough mother.

Even when Groves absolutely twatted him, he got up and fought his way back in, and that was one hell of a shot he took.

Froch lacked some finesse, but he was one of the fittest fighters I've seen in a long time, very strong, a good dig on him, and incredibly tough and tenacious.

Ward's skills were on the next level, he was bloody dreadful to watch, but he was great at controlling fights.

SteveDow wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 05:28 https://www.BS.com/andre-ward-lot-froch ... ay--149439

This will really grate on Froch won't it?! Have to say I do agree with Ward though. He would certainly have lost the Taylor fight but for Taylor having faded, arguably lost the Dirrell fight and the Groves 1 stoppage was very controversial. Also perhaps his wins over Bute and a faded Kessler are overrated. Pascal and Abraham are his best wins in my view.

Thoughts?

Bute was a clear betting favourite and had been on a great run. I think Bute himself has said he was never the same after that loss. Bit like with Calzaghe/Lacy and Hatton/Tyszu, I think you have to give them credit for taking on the challenge as it was viewed at the time.

Froch was exciting and good to watch. Ward not so much. Thought he lost the first Kovalev fight.

J-C wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 10:32

SteveDow wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 05:28 https://www.BS.com/andre-ward-lot-froch ... ay--149439

This will really grate on Froch won't it?! Have to say I do agree with Ward though. He would certainly have lost the Taylor fight but for Taylor having faded, arguably lost the Dirrell fight and the Groves 1 stoppage was very controversial. Also perhaps his wins over Bute and a faded Kessler are overrated. Pascal and Abraham are his best wins in my view.

Thoughts?

Bute was a clear betting favourite and had been on a great run. I think Bute himself has said he was never the same after that loss. Bit like with Calzaghe/Lacy and Hatton/Tyszu, I think you have to give them credit for taking on the challenge as it was viewed at the time.

He was, your'e dead right.

Bute's team dropped a real clanger taking Froch, when his promotions outfit wanted Dirrell on home soil.
Ward was slagging him off at the time, saying he'd fought no one and once he'd beat a 'name', maybe
he'll give him a shot to unify. I know he was well rewarded to go to Nottingham, but that was a great bit
of business from team Froch.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 05:59 It depends how you look at it. A lot of time when people talk about overachievers they discount qualities like toughness, chin, stamina, desire etc....as if these somehow aren't legit attributes, and that fighters who have success because of them have somehow have gone way beyond their true level when these qualities are part of them just as much as speed was part of roy jones or defense was of floyd

Good post. He was 'elite level' in those 4 qualities you've mentioned.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 05:59 It depends how you look at it. A lot of time when people talk about overachievers they discount qualities like toughness, chin, stamina, desire etc....as if these somehow aren't legit attributes, and that fighters who have success because of them have somehow have gone way beyond their true level when these qualities are part of them just as much as speed was part of roy jones or defense was of floyd

Spot on man

Froch was a two time ABA champion and World Championship bronze medallist, the pedigree and ability was always there before he turned pro.

Ward makes a point but not an especially strong one when you consider how incredibly tough Froch was and he could punch like hell plus had boxing skills, not the best, but put everything in the pot and you have a very hard man to beat in front of you. Almost forgot, he trained hard and was disciplined too. All these strengths bode well.

Yes, Carl almost came a cropper against the very good Jermain Taylor, but applied heavy pressure and pulled off a spectacular last gasp win in the USA. This win doesn't get shouted about anywhere near enough.

I've heard Ward interviewed and he said himself the Froch win wasn't easy. I thought he handled Froch well, but that's what Ward said. The fact Ward broke his hand during the fight probably didn't help, so you have to give Andre a lot of props for the win.

Froch wasn't far off elite level based on his ability to win. His record is undeniably impressive. He rarely took an easy fight and has a string of quality world class scalps on his resume.

Ward was a phenomenal ring technician who could hang tough with anyone, but IMO he lost the first fight to Kovalev and should have been penalised for fouls against Kessler and the Kovalev rematch. That said he was still one of best around during his era.

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 07:17

Cyclops wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 07:13

I'm not sure about Froch being an overachiever. He achieved an awful lot, but he couldn't beat Ward so it seems strange that Ward wants to twist the knife with Carl. There's always going to be animosity between them which is silly, but Ward won so wide, and cleanly, against Froch that I don't know why he even bothers with him.

yeah it's like they mutually bring out the snide in each other

It's mere speculation but I assume Froch made a lot more money, which probably irks Ward a little, and Ward is the guy that Froch couldn't even compete with, so they're probably a little jealous of each other?

Lame though considering they're both HOF worthy, retired and both smart enough to not go broke.

Ward got paid pretty well , he made at least a 1m a fight for quite a while , even a couple mill for slapping around paul smith, and got 11m between the kov fights. People always looked at his purses and wondered how he was making so much when he didn't seem to be a particularly large draw compared to guys making less

How much did Froch actually earn. People here saying he outearned Joe and Ward by a lot but how many fights would he really have gotten big money for.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 15:14 Ward got paid pretty well , he made at least a 1m a fight for quite a while , even a couple mill for slapping around paul smith, and got 11m between the kov fights. People always looked at his purses and wondered how he was making so much when he didn't seem to be a particularly large draw compared to guys making less

How much did Froch actually earn. People here saying he outearned Joe and Ward by a lot but how many fights would he really have gotten big money for.

Well, apparently there was 80,000 people at Wembley stadium.

When did being an overachiever become a.bad thing? Better that than an underachiever, which ward could easily be accused of being.

Carl had a great career with some superb wins. People need to deal with it and move on just cos they don't like him personally. All the talk about him losing to ward and not being as good as joe is ridiculous....like that's anything to be ashamed of or in any way embarrassing. He had balls of steel and would fight anyone, home or away. I don't see Hatton getting the same type of shit for losing to Floyd or Manny, and he got embarrassingly KO'd each time.

Steveh583 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 03:39 When did being an overachiever become a.bad thing? Better that than an underachiever, which ward could easily be accused of being.

Carl had a great career with some superb wins. People need to deal with it and move on just cos they don't like him personally. All the talk about him losing to ward and not being as good as joe is ridiculous....like that's anything to be ashamed of or in any way embarrassing. He had balls of steel and would fight anyone, home or away. I don't see Hatton getting the same type of poo for losing to Floyd or Manny, and he got embarrassingly KO'd each time.

Exactly this.

Could argue that every fighter who doesn't have a top amateur background is an overachiever if they go on to become a world champion/big money fighter

THEBUTCH wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 12:07 Yes, Carl almost came a cropper against the very good Jermain Taylor, but applied heavy pressure and pulled off a spectacular last gasp win in the USA. This win doesn't get shouted about anywhere near enough.

It gets lots of talk on here. Taylor had already lost twice to Pavlik and got stopped by Abraham in his next fight.
Taylor never won a title of any description at super-middle and 5 and a half years after the Froch fight he was fighting for the middleweight title.

i think under achiever, i think he should of left nottingham and gone to america trained with roach or some one and would of become an even better boxer, sounds like snide dig at carl , he was good boxer carl starting of .but then realised he also a greater fighter too

Ward should be considering his own record as he fought a lot of low level fighters and avoided plenty along the way who were stronger .

Ward has a studly record, they both have very good records

Vodka Breath x2
Dawson
Frochy
Kessler
Abraham
Bika

brilo33 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:37 i think under achiever, i think he should of left nottingham and gone to america trained with roach or some one and would of become an even better boxer, sounds like snide dig at carl , he was good boxer carl starting of .but then realised he also a greater fighter too

If you listen to the way Froch talks about McCracken that would never have happened.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑12 Jun 2020, 13:55 Ward has a studly record, they both have very good records

Vodka Breath x2
Dawson
Frochy
Kessler
Abraham
Bika

ward beat kessler after joe made him look average , vodka breath were tight fights , i mean bika again after joe beat him ,Abraham
after carl beat him, joe would of beat ward

So what if those guys had loses? It's hardly like Cal vs Kess was a punishing grueling fight

Hopkins had loses before Joe, so it doesn't count! Kess and Taylor and Abraham all had loses, so they don't count for Froch !

I don't know about overachiever exactly, but I definitely underestimated him going into a big fight more than once.