BoxRec

Derry Matthews, Steve Foster

stevec@france wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 10:53

Shhhh wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 05:07 Glenn McCrory winning world title

have to agree

I have met him a few times and he is fuckin huge now but back then wasnt really a HW

????? He was a cruiserweight champ. He only stepped up to heavy to earn a payday vs Lewis

Bellew is the most stand out from a contemporary view; and Gavin Rees is another good shout. Both benefitted from the right connections at the right time, and of course Bellew more so from the fact that Haye was pretty much shot to bits. Both emhasisied their over achievments by being totally outclassed when they faced world class guys in their division .. again; Bellew proving the better example.

From further back. I guess Dennis Andries and Steve Robinson.

tonyevs wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 13:29 Bellew is the most stand out from a contemporary view; and Gavin Rees is another good shout. Both benefitted from the right connections at the right time, and of course Bellew more so from the fact that Haye was pretty much shot to bits. Both emhasisied their over achievments by being totally outclassed when they faced world class guys in their division .. again; Bellew proving the better example.

From further back. I guess Dennis Andries and Steve Robinson.

While an out of shape Robinson was outclassed by a peak elite class Hamed, Robinson proved himself as solid world class champion material against McMillian, McKenzie and Hodkinson

Steveh583 wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 13:21

stevec@france wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 10:53

have to agree

I have met him a few times and he is fuckin huge now but back then wasnt really a HW

????? He was a cruiserweight champ. He only stepped up to heavy to earn a payday vs Lewis

No, he started as a heavyweight and had many fights there. He moved down to cruiser.

stevec@france wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 10:53

Shhhh wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 05:07 Glenn McCrory winning world title

have to agree

I have met him a few times and he is fuckin huge now but back then wasnt really a HW

His heads the size of a washing machine.

Glenn fought a weakling for that belt tbf, don't think he overachieved by winning that fight so depends how you look at it. Was just very lucky to have it be for a world title.

Onamastus wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 14:59

Steveh583 wrote: ↑13 Jun 2020, 13:21

????? He was a cruiserweight champ. He only stepped up to heavy to earn a payday vs Lewis

No, he started as a heavyweight and had many fights there. He moved down to cruiser.

thanks for the lesson. He passed me by.

While an out of shape Robinson was outclassed by a peak elite class Hamed, Robinson proved himself as solid world class champion material against McMillian, McKenzie and Hodkinson

I think Robinson was in clear decline before he faced Hamed; not saying it would have been any different a result had he been at his peak though.
Robinson made the most of what he had, and whilst the 3 names you list were decent operators .. none were anything other than decent British/European class featherweights. McMillan never got close to being what it was hoped he would become early on; McKenzie was moving up and not solid at featherweight, and Hoko never recovered from the Goyo Vargas fight.

I mean no disrespect to Robinson. Very good fighter and decent person too. His nickname was the Cinderella man so I think being an overachiever is no insult.

The lad they brought over to box McCrory for the IBF they somehow got him on the drink in the week of the fight. Strange but true. He was seduced by the bright lights of, er, County Durham.

Surprised no ones mentioned Khan. His limitations were shown early on against the likes of Limond and even getting dropped by a 76 year old Gomez. Matched against what many thought was a very weak champ to win his title.

To be fair he defended against Maidana and fought Alvarez so there were hard fights in there. But struggles against the likes of Julio Diaz again show you he’ll be lucky to win a title again.

ShadrachSimmo wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 00:49 Surprised no ones mentioned Khan. His limitations were shown early on against the likes of Limond and even getting dropped by a 76 year old Gomez. Matched against what many thought was a very weak champ to win his title.

To be fair he defended against Maidana and fought Alvarez so there were hard fights in there. But struggles against the likes of Julio Diaz again show you he’ll be lucky to win a title again.

Not sure if he's a case of overachieved (he lost the majority of big fights he had) or he is just overrated. Definitely agree though that his trouble with taking shots was being shown up against domestic level fighters like Limond and Gomez. I also think his early fights were being stopped the second he got on top and that made him look better than he was.

Was a unified world champ with some good wins and regularly fighting good opposition, nice career where he got to mix with some excellent fighters and was a lot of fun. Even a bit blown up at 147 he got a decent string of wins over Alexander, Algeiri, Collazo. Khan has the type of career where it's really hard to ask much more of him , unless you're a Brook fan lol

Not sure how many would be still predicting that right after some torrid domestic level fights and ktfo in like a minute by Prescott. Then again, it was pretty clear even then that he had some amazing talents, at least the ridiculous speed

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 02:31 Was a unified world champ with some good wins and regularly fighting good opposition, nice career where he got to mix with some excellent fighters and was a lot of fun. Even a bit blown up at 147 he got a decent string of wins over Alexander, Algeiri, Collazo. Khan has the type of career where it's really hard to ask much more of him , unless you're a Brook fan lol

Not sure how many would be still predicting that right after some torrid domestic level fights and ktfo in like a minute by Prescott. Then again, it was pretty clear even then that he had some amazing talents, at least the ridiculous speed

Can't disagree with that and that is why I don't think he's an overachiever, same with Froch, high standard in the amateurs, numerous world title fights, skill set to be winning lots of them. I think he's overrated because he was spoken of (and is still by some) as being elite level and I think his chin was never good enough to compete at that level. But seeing as how he was groomed as world title level from day 1 it's hard to say he overachieved. I do though get the point that some of his early domestic fights showed his limitations as well.

TheGoods wrote: ↑14 Jun 2020, 13:43 The lad they brought over to box McCrory for the IBF they somehow got him on the drink in the week of the fight. Strange but true. He was seduced by the bright lights of, er, County Durham.

Loves a pint McCrory.

GPTM1403 wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 01:56

ShadrachSimmo wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 00:49 Surprised no ones mentioned Khan. His limitations were shown early on against the likes of Limond and even getting dropped by a 76 year old Gomez. Matched against what many thought was a very weak champ to win his title.

To be fair he defended against Maidana and fought Alvarez so there were hard fights in there. But struggles against the likes of Julio Diaz again show you he’ll be lucky to win a title again.

Not sure if he's a case of overachieved (he lost the majority of big fights he had) or he is just overrated. Definitely agree though that his trouble with taking shots was being shown up against domestic level fighters like Limond and Gomez. I also think his early fights were being stopped the second he got on top and that made him look better than he was.

I was reluctant to mention him as he has had some good wins. I think a lot more was expected of him when he turned pro so he was built up as the next big thing. Wonder who he’ll fight next?

With hindsight, Frank Bruno winning the WBC Heavyweight title is an overachievement for a late starting muscleman with a dodgy chin (maybe I should put this in the unpopular opinions thread ).

Johnny Nelson won 3 out of 13 amateur fights and retired as an unbeaten World champion of about 7 years.

dazzler wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 06:17 With hindsight, Frank Bruno winning the WBC Heavyweight title is an overachievement for a late starting muscleman with a dodgy chin (maybe I should put this in the unpopular opinions thread ).

I'm a bit torn on Bruno, he wasn't in the class of Lewis or Tyson and you could easily say he overachieved, but then you look at what he did against Witherspoon, Lewis and Tyson and you have to say he could almost hang with those guys, he just wasn't quite their level. I mean either side of Bruno 2 supposedly superior HWs managed to last (COMBINED) less than a quarter of the time Bruno lasted and neither of those 2 managed to land a significant punch. But ultimately I guess he did overachieve and very much get lucky cos whilst some other not world class fighters held world titles he got one of those to fight to win it.

Steve Robinson for me too. I'm not sure he'd have even boxed for the British title, but he grabbed his unlikely opportunity with both hands and didn't look back.

I think everything has to be taken into consideration,what titles did they win and who against for instance.How many of the fighters listed in this thread would have won the title if there was only one belt,some had better managers than others,better promototrs with lots of backing so there are lots of factors in this.They all won a title that was available at the time,many of them minor belts and way off the top men of the divisions.

For me to over achieve is to win something you are not really good enough to win.
For me Robinson was good enough to win a WBO belt so he didn't overachieve. Bellow on the other hand for me wasn't good enough to win the WBC belt so did overachieve.
Now while talking about over achievement this is often due to management. Bellew did have fast Eddie and I don't believe he could have done it without him, nevertheless you have to credit his will, desire and belief to have won it, it doesn't happen by accident. Sometimes the overachievers should be given special credit.
For me on the other hand someone like Edwards benefitted from good management in a weak divIsion and won the WBC whereas in other conditions would have been fighting for the Southern area in the Streatham Ritzy.

Robinson had it tough but I'm not sure he showed enough consistency to think he could put a run together to even earn a world title shot. He'd win some and lose some, admittedly in decent company.

Barry Jones, whom unluckily stayed out for two years after his title win before being pulverized by PoPo Freitas.

JxhDel. wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 19:49 Barry Jones, whom unluckily stayed out for two years after his title win before being pulverized by PoPo Freitas.

Actually Barry Jones was a featherweight, and FW had Floyd Havard at the time. Floyd got offered the job at relatively short notice for a simple fight for the vacant WBO but couldn't do the weight in time so Jones came in and grabbed his opportunity.
Floyd wasn't used by FW again.