Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 06 Oct 2020, 14:46
by Thomastearns
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
All these years later there's still very little to convince me anyone could have dealt with a focused and primed Mike Tyson.
It's ok looking at stats with the benefit of hindsight but I don't remember anyone that ever had such an aura of dominance as Mike Tyson did at that time.
No one comes remotely close.
One way to get a greater insight would be to read his book, The Undisputed Truth, which offers candid insights into some of 'the bad things' that were definitely going on.
Another way might be to ask Michael Spinks or poor Marvis Frazier.
I like to tell myself that a peak Ali would beat Mike Tyson, but in truth I'd hardly be able to watch if those two were somehow able to face off at their brilliant best.
Larry Holmes might have put up a better fight against Tyson than their actual fight, or he might not have.
He certainly wasn't going to beat Mike Tyson.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
All these years later there's still very little to convince me anyone could have dealt with a focused and primed Mike Tyson.
It's ok looking at stats with the benefit of hindsight but I don't remember anyone that ever had such an aura of dominance as Mike Tyson did at that time.
No one comes remotely close.
One way to get a greater insight would be to read his book, The Undisputed Truth, which offers candid insights into some of 'the bad things' that were definitely going on.
Another way might be to ask Michael Spinks or poor Marvis Frazier.
I like to tell myself that a peak Ali would beat Mike Tyson, but in truth I'd hardly be able to watch if those two were somehow able to face off at their brilliant best.
Honestly I think Ali would have done it. He had the toughness to go the distance (though I wouldn't rule out him getting clipped and going down). He had 5 inches of height on Tyson, reach, stamina, great feet, great jab, hit hard enough to get respect, and was strong enough to tie up inside.
And the mental games would be amazing! I can only see Ali winding him up.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
All these years later there's still very little to convince me anyone could have dealt with a focused and primed Mike Tyson.
It's ok looking at stats with the benefit of hindsight but I don't remember anyone that ever had such an aura of dominance as Mike Tyson did at that time.
No one comes remotely close.
One way to get a greater insight would be to read his book, The Undisputed Truth, which offers candid insights into some of 'the bad things' that were definitely going on.
Another way might be to ask Michael Spinks or poor Marvis Frazier.
I like to tell myself that a peak Ali would beat Mike Tyson, but in truth I'd hardly be able to watch if those two were somehow able to face off at their brilliant best.
Honestly I think Ali would have done it. He had the toughness to go the distance (though I wouldn't rule out him getting clipped and going down). He had 5 inches of height on Tyson, reach, stamina, great feet, great jab, hit hard enough to get respect, and was strong enough to tie up inside.
And the mental games would be amazing! I can only see Ali winding him up.
I doubt it would come to Ali's toughness. Prime 64-67 Ali is just too fast, he wouldn't even need his toughness to deal with Prime Tyson. He would take a comfortable UD, if not a late TKO.
Or are you talking about post-prime 73-77 Ali who was slowed down a lot and relies on his parrying and blocking more instead of dodging? Then that would be debatable against Prime Tyson. But even that Ali beat people who are possible better than Tyson (such as Frazier, Foreman).
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 06 Oct 2020, 21:48
by Tevfik1907
As for the thread;
---10:30---
''Everybody in this room here would beat Mike Tyson.''
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 07 Oct 2020, 05:45
by apollo creed
Tevfik1907 wrote: ↑06 Oct 2020, 21:48
As for the thread;
---10:30---
''Everybody in this room here would beat Mike Tyson.''
Thanks man. These were the real HW's that fought each other.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 07 Oct 2020, 15:52
by f read
I disagree that everyone in Champions Forever would defeat Tyson. Norton i believe did not have the chin to stand up to the Tyson power. Frazier even may have struggled and being a slow starter may have not been able to get through the early rounds if he got past the middle rounds he wins by decision. Holmes Ali and Foreman i do believe could defeat Tyson.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 08 Oct 2020, 03:15
by BroughtonRulesRefuge
- Watching you Lambchops fry, stew, grill, and pickle yourselves a reminder that a Lambchop is a Lambchop by any other culinary preparation as per Billy Shakes.
Running the Tyson/Ali timelines against each other, Boxrec is your friend here.
Age 20 Mike is 3-0, 2 KO as he consolidates the WBC/WBA against Berbick(a single combo send him down 3X!), Bonecrusher, and Thomas. Age 21 he's 5-0, 4 KO as he consolidates the IBF and Lineal with WBC/WBA as the first ever against 34-0 Tony Tucker, Olympic champ Biggs, Tubby Lar, and Michael Jinx Spinks.
Little note here, Lar weren't part of Ali/Norton/Frazier/Foreman rivalry, DUH! And he's caught lying on tape when he says he only had 2 months to train for Mike when in fact he'd been at every Kid Mike fight savaging the kid in interviews claiming he was ducking him as he was in permanent training for a year's time at his own private gym he built on his estate for just that fight. Amazing how a polite, well spoken squeaky voiced kid as Mike was back then was able to delightfully boil up Lar's congenital inferiority complex so easily.
<<<<<Young Cassius Clay. Age 20 he was busy being knocked down by 21 year old 190 lb Sonny Banks. Age 21 getting knocked around by little Doug Jones for a controversial decision booed by fans, and getting knocked down and arguably out(See Angelo Dundee, torn gloves, extended rest, smelling salts) by little Henry Cooper who had to wear weights to clear the 175 lb threshold.
Net result is it took Cassius 2 years and 21 years of age to go 3-0, 2 KO against obviously inferior comp where a title shot seemed as distant as Mongolia. By Age 21 Mike was 8-0, 6 KO lauded as the all time greatest heavy champ, not by him but by the media experts who saw a Colossus in his squat packed frame.
Now>>>>> to Cassius dubious title debut vs Sonny Liston at age 22 when he failed the fight physical meaning the fight would be called off, but dubious influences gave him a 2nd chance that he finally passed. Opening rounds sees him running like a scalded cat for a tree where he starts screaming to cut the gloves off. At that point it would've been an easy decision for the ref to TKO him, but the thing was Malcolm and his minions were all there that most assuredly led to a riot, so the ref lets him go on thinking the KO is near. Then Liston, a mob controlled fighter mysteriously quits on his stool.
The rematch in the Lewistown, Maine junior hockey rink in front of a smattering of fans with Malcolm now assassinated perhaps the cruelest joke ever played on boxing on dozens of levels.
Alas, Lambchop Logic sorta like Muskrat Love needed to propagate the species, yet a Lambchop and Muskrat are still a Lambchop and Muskrat by any other name no matter how you stir fry em up
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 08 Oct 2020, 03:46
by Enlightened-One
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑08 Oct 2020, 03:15- Watching you Lambchops fry, stew, grill, and pickle yourselves a reminder that a Lambchop is a Lambchop by any other culinary preparation as per Billy Shakes.
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑08 Oct 2020, 03:15Lambchop Logic sorta like Muskrat Love needed to propagate the species, yet a Lambchop and Muskrat are still a Lambchop and Muskrat by any other name no matter how you stir fry em up
Am I the only one that doesn't understand this dialect?
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 08 Oct 2020, 11:20
by Thomastearns
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑08 Oct 2020, 03:15
- Watching you Lambchops fry, stew, grill, and pickle yourselves a reminder that a Lambchop is a Lambchop by any other culinary preparation as per Billy Shakes.
Running the Tyson/Ali timelines against each other, Boxrec is your friend here.
Age 20 Mike is 3-0, 2 KO as he consolidates the WBC/WBA against Berbick(a single combo send him down 3X!), Bonecrusher, and Thomas. Age 21 he's 5-0, 4 KO as he consolidates the IBF and Lineal with WBC/WBA as the first ever against 34-0 Tony Tucker, Olympic champ Biggs, Tubby Lar, and Michael Jinx Spinks.
Little note here, Lar weren't part of Ali/Norton/Frazier/Foreman rivalry, DUH! And he's caught lying on tape when he says he only had 2 months to train for Mike when in fact he'd been at every Kid Mike fight savaging the kid in interviews claiming he was ducking him as he was in permanent training for a year's time at his own private gym he built on his estate for just that fight. Amazing how a polite, well spoken squeaky voiced kid as Mike was back then was able to delightfully boil up Lar's congenital inferiority complex so easily.
<<<<<Young Cassius Clay. Age 20 he was busy being knocked down by 21 year old 190 lb Sonny Banks. Age 21 getting knocked around by little Doug Jones for a controversial decision booed by fans, and getting knocked down and arguably out(See Angelo Dundee, torn gloves, extended rest, smelling salts) by little Henry Cooper who had to wear weights to clear the 175 lb threshold.
Net result is it took Cassius 2 years and 21 years of age to go 3-0, 2 KO against obviously inferior comp where a title shot seemed as distant as Mongolia. By Age 21 Mike was 8-0, 6 KO lauded as the all time greatest heavy champ, not by him but by the media experts who saw a Colossus in his squat packed frame.
Now>>>>> to Cassius dubious title debut vs Sonny Liston at age 22 when he failed the fight physical meaning the fight would be called off, but dubious influences gave him a 2nd chance that he finally passed. Opening rounds sees him running like a scalded cat for a tree where he starts screaming to cut the gloves off. At that point it would've been an easy decision for the ref to TKO him, but the thing was Malcolm and his minions were all there that most assuredly led to a riot, so the ref lets him go on thinking the KO is near. Then Liston, a mob controlled fighter mysteriously quits on his stool.
The rematch in the Lewistown, Maine junior hockey rink in front of a smattering of fans with Malcolm now assassinated perhaps the cruelest joke ever played on boxing on dozens of levels.
Alas, Lambchop Logic sorta like Muskrat Love needed to propagate the species, yet a Lambchop and Muskrat are still a Lambchop and Muskrat by any other name no matter how you stir fry em up
Great article that fills in the kind of detail that often gets lost or willingly 'forgotten' with the passing of time.
As they say, the devil is in the details.
"For those who believe that Liston took a dive, there are a number of theories as to why, including:
(1) The Mafia forced Liston to throw the fight as part of a betting coup.
(2) Liston bet against himself and took a dive because he owed money to the Mafia.
(3) A couple of members of the Nation of Islam visited Liston's training camp and told Liston they would kill him if he won the rematch.
(4) Author Paul Gallender claims that members of the Nation of Islam kidnapped Liston's wife, Geraldine, and his son, Bobby. Liston was told to lose the fight to Ali or he would never see his family again.
(5) Liston was afraid that he would be accidentally shot by followers of Malcolm X as they tried to kill Ali in the ring.
What really happened that day in Lewiston, Maine, is still debated to this day."
What disturbs me is the notion that Ali himself might have been held to ransom by the Nation of Islam. If true, it kind of radically changes the accepted narritive of his career.
In any case, we may never know, but when it comes to comparing timelines, Mike Tyson is easily the all time no 1.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 08 Oct 2020, 13:36
by JimStone
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
Cus/Rooney did great with the man-child junior Olympian and when Tyson was knocking out stiffs but the idea that had they been able to continue with him as he progressed he'd have been better than he was is totally unfounded.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
Cus/Rooney did great with the man-child junior Olympian and when Tyson was knocking out stiffs but the idea that had they been able to continue with him as he progressed he'd have been better than he was is totally unfounded.
Tyson was always going to derail. He was already starting to rebel against Cus and his control over him before Cus died.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 08 Oct 2020, 19:34
by squiggy
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑08 Oct 2020, 03:15
Now>>>>> to Cassius dubious title debut vs Sonny Liston at age 22 when he failed the fight physical meaning the fight would be called off, but dubious influences gave him a 2nd chance that he finally passed. Opening rounds sees him running like a scalded cat for a tree where he starts screaming to cut the gloves off. At that point it would've been an easy decision for the ref to TKO him, but the thing was Malcolm and his minions were all there that most assuredly led to a riot, so the ref lets him go on thinking the KO is near. Then Liston, a mob controlled fighter mysteriously quits on his stool.
To add a minor detail that this account somehow failed to mention, he also utterly dominated the fight.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 06:41
by apollo creed
So no matter who would've trained Tyson or being around him it was just a matter of time (and money) to see Tyson having a wild-rebellious life. Tony Tucker was a very good win for Tyson.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
Cus/Rooney did great with the man-child junior Olympian and when Tyson was knocking out stiffs but the idea that had they been able to continue with him as he progressed he'd have been better than he was is totally unfounded.
Tyson was always going to derail. He was already starting to rebel against Cus and his control over him before Cus died.
He would have been derailed by holyfield at any moment of his career.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Cus/Rooney did great with the man-child junior Olympian and when Tyson was knocking out stiffs but the idea that had they been able to continue with him as he progressed he'd have been better than he was is totally unfounded.
Tyson was always going to derail. He was already starting to rebel against Cus and his control over him before Cus died.
He would have been derailed by holyfield at any moment of his career.
Holyfield and Lennox.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 15:59
by Thomastearns
Mike Tyson had accomplished more by the age of 23 than anyone in heavyweight history.
Before or since.
He was still a child when his world began to fall apart once more.
But this time the whole world was watching.
He wasn't even 20 when D'Amato died.
Then the Givens disaster.
Then Jacobs died before he was 23.
Then the Rooney split.
You know all the rest.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 16:18
by Onetimeonly
Poor baby.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑08 Oct 2020, 03:15
Now>>>>> to Cassius dubious title debut vs Sonny Liston at age 22 when he failed the fight physical meaning the fight would be called off, but dubious influences gave him a 2nd chance that he finally passed. Opening rounds sees him running like a scalded cat for a tree where he starts screaming to cut the gloves off. At that point it would've been an easy decision for the ref to TKO him, but the thing was Malcolm and his minions were all there that most assuredly led to a riot, so the ref lets him go on thinking the KO is near. Then Liston, a mob controlled fighter mysteriously quits on his stool.
To add a minor detail that this account somehow failed to mention, he also utterly dominated the fight.
- Ah, squiggly, next time Scotty beams you into the boxrec universe from your Goldilocks Retirement Community, remember the Golden Rule.
A perfect draw of a fight near impossible to score because of Clays sprinting!
No worries, when the gransquigglies come calling you can recount young Clay descending from a golden cloud to glide about tap tapping Sonny dizzy before ascending in a golden cloud to the heavens above.
Meantime for the Field and Lewis blowup doll crowd, at age 21 after having done the Herculean task of sweeping the stench of the tubby Lar era into the pit of ignominy, you boys Field still in his nascent BIG BOY trainers loser division that had no lineal champ, and Lewis still in his 3 round headgear Olympic diapers.
Time to get them peachy cheeks to huffin' & puffin' cause gonna be a whole lot of inflation going on to catch Mike careening his way down from Mt Olympus after Hera and Zeus kicked him out.
Years and years later drugged out on experimental psychotropic sedatives after being fleeced by King and Givens, he's ripe for a mugging and you boys finally inflated enough for the job
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 20:19
by Enlightened-One
Tyson never overcame adversity inside the ring.
When Holyfield was a massive underdog against Tyson, he bullied the overwhelming favourite, because he’d sparred with him years earlier and already knew he had his number.
Tyson was mentally weak.
If you listen to Tyson’s tearful comments about Muhammad Ali, he might have been a “bad mutherf*cker”, but he wasn’t “willing die to for this sh*t” (his actual words), because he felt Ali was the greatest.
If people seriously doubt my claims, then challenge me. Bring it on and you’ll be surprised about the sheer volume of evidence I’ll be able to supply.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 01:48
by Onetimeonly
Tyson overcame adversity when he was being schooled by Botha. You lose yet again.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 05:19
by candyslim
apollo creed wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 04:04
Tyson with Cus/Rooney and without those bad distractions he had vs Holyfield in 1987-1988 would've answered how good Tyson was. But unfortunately bad things happen.
Well said. I think what a boxing fan thinks of Mike Tyson is heavily influenced by his/her age: It's very possible for a twenty something student of the game to conclude that Mike was very good, but by no means an elite champion. Perfectly understandable.
If you are old enough to have witnessed Tyson's rise through the division as it happened, you are probably going to regard Mike as the force of nature that he was in his all-too-brief prime, rather than the fighter he became in his looong decline. Maybe the truth lies between the two extremes.
I wouldn't necessarily say Mike would win, but he is certainly capable of dropping Larry in the manner that Earnie Shavers or Reinaldo Snipes did, and there aren't many people who would give either of them much of a chance in a prime v prime against Iron Mike.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 07:43
by Enlightened-One
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑11 Oct 2020, 01:48
Tyson overcame adversity when he was being schooled by Botha. You lose yet again.
Tyson didn’t need to dig deep to defeat a massive underdog like Botha.
He simply started slowly in that fight, because he hadn’t fought for more than nineteen months. He wasn’t getting beaten up and he wasn’t exhausted either. A combination of ring rust and employing a new trainer affected his performance, but despite that, the outcome always seemed inevitable.
Once again, you demonstrate your lack of intellect by proving your inability to comprehend the meaning of a rather simple word like “adversity”.
You lose yet again.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 11:18
by apollo creed
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑10 Oct 2020, 20:19
Tyson never overcame adversity inside the ring.
When Holyfield was a massive underdog against Tyson, he bullied the overwhelming favourite, because he’d sparred with him years earlier and already knew he had his number.
Tyson was mentally weak.
If you listen to Tyson’s tearful comments about Muhammad Ali, he might have been a “bad mutherf*cker”, but he wasn’t “willing die to for this sh*t” (his actual words), because he felt Ali was the greatest.
If people seriously doubt my claims, then challenge me. Bring it on and you’ll be surprised about the sheer volume of evidence I’ll be able to supply.
Yup, when he was young. Tyson was very easy drawn into the bad things with or without his will. But most probably b/c he grew up in a poor/bad place with no good education as a kid. When Tyson earned big money , he just wanted to live that good-sweet-luxurious life. Also he had lots of bad influence-leeches in his entourage.
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 12:06
by Tevfik1907
Larry Holmes: “I worked out with Muhammad Ali. I learned a lot from him. But anyone who needed some work, I worked with them. Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers, guys like that, I’d try to learn something from all of them. A little bit from Ali, a little bit from Shavers. You have to learn how to jab when you fight the big guys like Shavers and [Ken] Norton.”
“I trained with Eddie Futch, Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown. Those were the best guys in boxing when it came to training guys. [But] I really learned how to box from Muhammad Ali,”
“Shavers hit hard. I mean, real hard. Twenty years later, I can still feel the punch, He was one of the hardest punchers in the world. He hit me and knocked me down and I beat him. I fought him twice, and beat him both times. And nobody wanted to fight Earnie Shavers.''
“Mike Tyson would have been easy for me to fight [early in my career]. I was out for two years and I came back, and I wasn’t in shape to fight Mike Tyson, He was just a good puncher. He wasn’t a boxer. He didn’t know how to box. He knew how to punch. No punchers were going to get me [in my prime]. Shavers was a puncher and he didn’t get me. I fought Tyson the way I thought I should, but my arm got caught in the ropes. I was setting him up. It was going his way that day….but no, he’s nowhere near me in the greats.”
“Come on. They can’t take a punch… they’re amateurs. To me? They’re amateurs. To Ali? They’re amateurs. To Ken Norton? They’re amateurs. To Joe Frazier? They’re amateurs. To us, they’re kids. They can’t fight. They didn’t learn how to fight. We learned how to fight.”
Re: 1978-1980 Larry Holmes vs 1986-1988 Mike Tyson
Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 15:16
by Thomastearns
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑10 Oct 2020, 20:19
Tyson never overcame adversity inside the ring.
When Holyfield was a massive underdog against Tyson, he bullied the overwhelming favourite, because he’d sparred with him years earlier and already knew he had his number.
Tyson was mentally weak.
If you listen to Tyson’s tearful comments about Muhammad Ali, he might have been a “bad mutherf*cker”, but he wasn’t “willing die to for this sh*t” (his actual words), because he felt Ali was the greatest.
If people seriously doubt my claims, then challenge me. Bring it on and you’ll be surprised about the sheer volume of evidence I’ll be able to supply.
You're not only on the wrong track, you're on the wrong train going the wrong way with your headphones on listening to Teddy.
Seriously, what exactly do you know about adversity?
