IF Sonny had an 84 inch reach, it may not seem that apparent in a fight. I met Sonny once, in 1965. I was struck by the freakishly long fingers he had, and, of course, the size of his hands and fingers in general. I would think it's a safe bet to say his fingers contributed greatly to his reach, so, in the ring, Muhammad Ali's reach may have actually been similar, with his arm extended in a gloved fist. When I met Ali, in 1969, in Philadelphia, his hands didn't seem all that large to me, nor did his fingers seem especially long for a man his size.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 14 Dec 2020, 13:38
by Djanders44
Interesting to look at, but who knows?
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 14 Dec 2020, 14:08
by Controversial
Theres a youtube video of Ali's reach being measured and it was 78", tale of the tapes are notoriously inaccurate and often made up.
littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12
Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempsey's time or perhaps Dempsey born in Liston's time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.
I think a lot of change happened from say Sullivan's to the maybe latter part of the dempsey era. After that I think most of the techniques and strategies have remained pretty similar. I don't think the Heavyweights now are any better than Heavyweights from era's past. I think that Foreman was able to be so successful in the 90s while in his 40's and Holyfield was able to do the same thing a decade later while in his 40's shows that boxing or at least heavyweight boxing hasn't evolved or improved like other sports have.
My reasons for posting this was it's hard to place Liston if you were rating guys on how they would go against each other. It's hard rating him in general, Marciano may have been champ for longer but does anyone think that Liston wouldn't wipe the floor with him? The same can be said about a lot of HW champions when comparing them to Liston.
If you pit some of the guys from the older era against he current guys you would have to conclude that the size difference would be an important factor. But it's not a factor for Liston, yeah he will give away height and weight but will likely still retain the reach, speed and strength advantage against most guys.
Liston is not likely to have a strength advantage over guys more than 40 pounds heavier like many of todays top heavies
about holyfield being successful in his 40's similar to foreman:
holyfield entering his 40's was absolutely washed up, shot to bits!!! LOST to byrd, got knocked out by toney and could do nothing to Larry Donald who outboxed him over 12 rounds.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 14 Dec 2020, 20:24
by Caractacus
reportedly Mac Foster had KO'd him in a sparring session at Dick Sadler's gym in Oakland CA. in 1968.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 14 Dec 2020, 20:30
by Caractacus
anyway it was Heroin that really beat Liston
( there is some debate but he may have gotten hooked on it sometime between the original re-match date for Boston November 1964 cancellation and Lewiston Maine May 1965
( and maybe Cocaine at a later date)
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 14 Dec 2020, 23:46
by Ambling Alp II
Caractacus wrote: ↑14 Dec 2020, 20:24
reportedly Mac Foster had KO'd him in a sparring session at Dick Sadler's gym in Oakland CA. in 1968.
Always believe the tales form the gym, they are always true and very important.
p4p1 wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:46
.I think that Foreman was able to be so successful in the 90s while in his 40's and Holyfield was able to do the same thing a decade later while in his 40's shows that boxing or at least heavyweight boxing hasn't evolved or improved like other sports have.
Different styles and strengths and weaknesses. Foreman relied on his physical strength, chin and power in his comeback, he was never the fastest, slickest or a mover and if anything the extra weight in his comeback probably helped him. Holyfield was more about punch output, reflexes, combinations, fitness, speed which all decline with age.
Relaxing was the biggest help in foreman's comeback. The fat didn't help.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 02:25
by Onetimeonly
Djanders44 wrote: ↑14 Dec 2020, 13:23
IF Sonny had an 84 inch reach, it may not seem that apparent in a fight. I met Sonny once, in 1965. I was struck by the freakishly long fingers he had, and, of course, the size of his hands and fingers in general. I would think it's a safe bet to say his fingers contributed greatly to his reach, so, in the ring, Muhammad Ali's reach may have actually been similar, with his arm extended in a gloved fist. When I met Ali, in 1969, in Philadelphia, his hands didn't seem all that large to me, nor did his fingers seem especially long for a man his size.
littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12
Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempsey's time or perhaps Dempsey born in Liston's time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.
I think a lot of change happened from say Sullivan's to the maybe latter part of the dempsey era. After that I think most of the techniques and strategies have remained pretty similar. I don't think the Heavyweights now are any better than Heavyweights from era's past. I think that Foreman was able to be so successful in the 90s while in his 40's and Holyfield was able to do the same thing a decade later while in his 40's shows that boxing or at least heavyweight boxing hasn't evolved or improved like other sports have.
Holyfield wasn't really that successful in his 40s. He lost widely to Bryd, Donald, Toney, and Ibragimov. Won like 2 rounds in these. Really beat no one who was that good. Best win was over Oquendo and that could;ve gone either way.
I guess beating guys like Oquendo and Savarese is respectable for a guy in his 40s, but not really all that impressive.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 11:57
by Nile4000
Big John Tate has a shot, as well as Tony Tucker and Greg Page.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 12:05
by dr_devious
Nile4000 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020, 11:57
Big John Tate has a shot, as well as Tony Tucker and Greg Page.
A shot at what? Whatever it is it isn't beating a prime Sonny Liston.
Nile4000 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020, 11:57
Big John Tate has a shot, as well as Tony Tucker and Greg Page.
A shot at what? Whatever it is it isn't beating a prime Sonny Liston.
If your durable and have strong boxing ability, you can beat Liston. And those 3 qualify.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 15:50
by Caractacus
Liston's jab almost looked hyper-extended in 2 sections compared to other fighter's jab.
I dont think anyone on the scene from 1958-1963 could beat Liston.
Eddie Machen ( who had fought 10 fighters who Liston also fought)
was able to mentally rattle Liston somewhat with his hit and run techniques
as well as trying to rough up Liston and unnerve him by calling him names in the ring
and critiaizing him.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 17:51
by Mikey K
It all boils down to management, there are some boxers who were cerebral and talented enough who could beat Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali is the best example of this and he did beat Liston but there are many boxers who could've beaten Liston if they had a Cus D'Amato in their corner to manage, support and protect them.
Imagine if Sonny didn't get in with the wrong crowd and had a Cus D'Amato in his corner like what Tyson did.
Liston's never impressed me tbh so I'll just shrug my shoulders and go with Jack Johnson. He could most probably handily beat Liston from what I've seen from his fights.
A shot at what? Whatever it is it isn't beating a prime Sonny Liston.
If your durable and have strong boxing ability, you can beat Liston. And those 3 qualify.
Ridiculous assumptions..........how many beat peak Liston?
Eddie Machen came close right? If Machen can arguably do it, those others can. And if I am right, Machen's performance influenced Cassius Clay. That speaks volumes.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 18:13
by dr_devious
Machen was very good, he lasted the distance with Sonny but I wouldn't say he came close.
That said I am a Liston fanboy, it's possible I'm overestimating him.
If your durable and have strong boxing ability, you can beat Liston. And those 3 qualify.
Ridiculous assumptions..........how many beat peak Liston?
Eddie Machen came close right? If Machen can arguably do it, those others can. And if I am right, Machen's performance influenced Cassius Clay. That speaks volumes.
Machen didn't have one clear round.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 20:32
by Caractacus
yeah, but he went the dstance with Liston ( even though he was practically knocked out in the last round).
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 20:44
by Onetimeonly
Caractacus wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020, 20:32
yeah, but he went the dstance with Liston ( even though he was practically knocked out in the last round).
Ridiculous assumptions..........how many beat peak Liston?
Eddie Machen came close right? If Machen can arguably do it, those others can. And if I am right, Machen's performance influenced Cassius Clay. That speaks volumes.
Machen didn't have one clear round.
He had a couple early on.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 15 Dec 2020, 23:15
by Nile4000
dr_devious wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020, 18:13
Machen was very good, he lasted the distance with Sonny but I wouldn't say he came close.
That said I am a Liston fanboy, it's possible I'm overestimating him.
Machen was NOT scared of Sonny. And Liston knew it. So it freaked him out a little bit. So much he cheated. And that helped him beat Eddie that day. I feel without the cheating, Eddie might have pulled it off. Understand you are a fan of Sonny, but he was not God. And people forget that often.
