BoxRec

BTW it looked more like Valuev had stumbled over himself trying to get himself out of the corner from Ruiz
in the second round of their second fight.
If he hadn't been so nice of a fighter he would have just heavily shoved Ruiz back
instead of trying to manuever himself out of the corner.

Valuev was terrible
That generation of hw totally sucks

An old larry donald and holyfield beat him. He needed gifts against them and jon ruiz

Blech

But he weighed a lot.

I don't see how Valuevs success is necessarily an indictment of the era as a whole. He was very carefully matched and received some very dubious decisions. Had he been matched more aggressively he would have numerous losses some likely via stoppage. He was never viewed as the best heavyweight in the world by fans.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2021, 10:01 I don't see how Valuevs success is necessarily an indictment of the era as a whole. He was very carefully matched and received some very dubious decisions. Had he been matched more aggressively he would have numerous losses some likely via stoppage. He was never viewed as the best heavyweight in the world by fans.

Nah but it was a really crappy boring era he was in when he was 'prime'. I remember Wlad being consensus best of a rotten era before he eventually established himself as unified. You can pick a year between 2004 and 2008 and pull up any Ring magazine heavyweight top 10 and it really is a depressing line up of fighters. Randomly, here's 2007. Other top tens from those years look equally as tragic.

Title Vacant
Wladimir Klitschko
Samuel Peter
Oleg Maskaev
Ruslan Chagaev
Nikolay Valuev
Sultan Ibragimov
Serguei Lyakhovich
Vladimir Virchis
Tony Thompson
Alexander Povetkin

Cyclops wrote: ↑02 Apr 2021, 20:57

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2021, 10:01 I don't see how Valuevs success is necessarily an indictment of the era as a whole. He was very carefully matched and received some very dubious decisions. Had he been matched more aggressively he would have numerous losses some likely via stoppage. He was never viewed as the best heavyweight in the world by fans.

Nah but it was a really crappy boring era he was in when he was 'prime'. I remember Wlad being consensus best of a rotten era before he eventually established himself as unified. You can pick a year between 2004 and 2008 and pull up any Ring magazine heavyweight top 10 and it really is a depressing line up of fighters. Randomly, here's 2007. Other top tens from those years look equally as tragic.

Title Vacant
Wladimir Klitschko
Samuel Peter
Oleg Maskaev
Ruslan Chagaev
Nikolay Valuev
Sultan Ibragimov
Serguei Lyakhovich
Vladimir Virchis
Tony Thompson
Alexander Povetkin

You're not wrong.

I almost fell asleep reading this list.

Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield really left a huge void when they retired and/or got old back then.

I think things noticeably declined circa 2002/2003 reaching a low point circa 2004/2005 but from 2006 onwards things improved somewhat.

I don't think it compares favorably to the mid 1990s circa 1995, 1996, 1997 but I think the division in 2007/2008 was comparable to the late 1990s early 2000s. There are guys on that list aside from Wladimir who could have beaten the 2000 version of Mike Tyson for example or the Holyfield of the Ruiz trilogy

There was a phase where the belt holders were Byrd (IBF), Ruiz (WBA) and Vitali (WBC) that felt like it lasted for about a decade.

That 95-97 era was weird. You had 3 guys holding belts which weren't even regarded top 5 fighters of that year and one who wasn't even ranked top ten.

Valuev's bauble reign was a circus show...nothing more

He would be top 5 today

emallini wrote: ↑08 Apr 2021, 13:21 He would be top 5 today

He wouldn't even make top-15 without the judges.

emallini wrote: ↑08 Apr 2021, 13:21 He would be top 5 today

Like to see Wilder vs Valuev. Irresistible force, immovable object, etc.

J-C wrote: ↑08 Apr 2021, 15:32

emallini wrote: ↑08 Apr 2021, 13:21 He would be top 5 today

Like to see Wilder vs Valuev. Irresistible force, immovable object, etc.

Wilder will just swing..

Valuev would be a one, whom Wilder could legitimately outbox. Wilder's jab is faster, movement is better, those would be enough. With his unexistent defence, Valuev could even be stopped.

Cyclops wrote: ↑02 Apr 2021, 20:57

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2021, 10:01 I don't see how Valuevs success is necessarily an indictment of the era as a whole. He was very carefully matched and received some very dubious decisions. Had he been matched more aggressively he would have numerous losses some likely via stoppage. He was never viewed as the best heavyweight in the world by fans.

Nah but it was a really crappy boring era he was in when he was 'prime'. I remember Wlad being consensus best of a rotten era before he eventually established himself as unified. You can pick a year between 2004 and 2008 and pull up any Ring magazine heavyweight top 10 and it really is a depressing line up of fighters. Randomly, here's 2007. Other top tens from those years look equally as tragic.

Title Vacant
Wladimir Klitschko
Samuel Peter
Oleg Maskaev
Ruslan Chagaev
Nikolay Valuev
Sultan Ibragimov
Serguei Lyakhovich
Vladimir Virchis
Tony Thompson
Alexander Povetkin

A title picky on a given year? How about 2008?



Wladimir Klitschko - A dominant champion for ten years. Only Joe Louis can say the same.
Vitali Klitschko - A first ballot hall of fame fighter, and the led vote receiver in his induction year.
Ruslan Chagaev -A solid alphabet champion
Alexander Povetkin- Underrated, still highly ranked at age 40 today, 13 years after 2008
Nikolay Valuev - Won some, lost some.
Sultan Ibragimov - A swift southpaw with good power and durability who retired young
Samuel Peter - At this point, he was a puncher with a good record
Oleg Maskaev - KO'd lineal champion Rahman twice.
Juan Carlos Gomez - A slick Cuban
Alexander Dimitrenko - Okay he's was tenth, still around today so what does that tell you?

IMO hardly a rotten era. Today is a down talent in the top ten. Vlauev would be 2-8 vs the above men. Well maybe 3-7 at best.

DrDuke wrote: ↑08 Apr 2021, 14:46

emallini wrote: ↑08 Apr 2021, 13:21 He would be top 5 today

He wouldn't even make top-15 without the judges.

Today? Fury has a grand total of 2 wins over top ten ring magazine opponents, and one of was 39. Okay give him three if you must by including Chisora. Is that a resume to be proud of at his age?

Moving to Wilder just to show the difference, he has yet to bet ONE ranked man in Ring Magazine under the of 36. And he never will.

Jousha's resume is a bit better, but his two biggest wins were over old men. Wlad and Povetkin and both gave him good fights as old men, lucky for Wilder he faced neither in their rime.

So the top ten today has very few wins over other top ten opponents and when they do, they are often old men, way past this best. Impressed yet? IMO Valuev in his prime would make the top ten today.

pound per pound wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 08:20A title picky on a given year? How about 2008?

Wladimir Klitschko - A dominant champion for ten years. Only Joe Louis can say the same.
Vitali Klitschko - A first ballot hall of fame fighter, and the led vote receiver in his induction year.
Ruslan Chagaev -A solid alphabet champion
Alexander Povetkin- Underrated, still highly ranked at age 40 today, 13 years after 2008
Nikolay Valuev - Won some, lost some.
Sultan Ibragimov - A swift southpaw with good power and durability who retired young
Samuel Peter - At this point, he was a puncher with a good record
Oleg Maskaev - KO'd lineal champion Rahman twice.
Juan Carlos Gomez - A slick Cuban
Alexander Dimitrenko - Okay he's was tenth, still around today so what does that tell you?

IMO hardly a rotten era. Today is a down talent in the top ten. Vlauev would be 2-8 vs the above men. Well maybe 3-7 at best.

For me, it's not so much the talent level, more that, as a fan, that era just felt very, very dull.

I can't really think any particularly memorable fights between the guys you list. Peter vs Mazkaev might have been decent, I can't really remember.

Not saying fighters have to be entertaining for my benefit but the era since Fury beat Wlad has been a lot more fun IMO.

J-C wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 09:41

pound per pound wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 08:20A title picky on a given year? How about 2008?

Wladimir Klitschko - A dominant champion for ten years. Only Joe Louis can say the same.
Vitali Klitschko - A first ballot hall of fame fighter, and the led vote receiver in his induction year.
Ruslan Chagaev -A solid alphabet champion
Alexander Povetkin- Underrated, still highly ranked at age 40 today, 13 years after 2008
Nikolay Valuev - Won some, lost some.
Sultan Ibragimov - A swift southpaw with good power and durability who retired young
Samuel Peter - At this point, he was a puncher with a good record
Oleg Maskaev - KO'd lineal champion Rahman twice.
Juan Carlos Gomez - A slick Cuban
Alexander Dimitrenko - Okay he's was tenth, still around today so what does that tell you?

IMO hardly a rotten era. Today is a down talent in the top ten. Vlauev would be 2-8 vs the above men. Well maybe 3-7 at best.

For me, it's not so much the talent level, more that, as a fan, that era just felt very, very dull.

I can't really think any particularly memorable fights between the guys you list. Peter vs Mazkaev might have been decent, I can't really remember.

Not saying fighters have to be entertaining for my benefit but the era since Fury beat Wlad has been a lot more fun IMO.

Exactly.

Nice try, mate: but Wladamir and Vitali would never fight, so it's not like now where you have the clear number 1 and 2 signed to square off. Chagaev very boring nondescript fighter. Povetkin was held back for years from fighting Wlad at this point because he "wasn't ready" and in 2008 fought Fat Eddie Chambers and Taurus Sykes (and I watched the Sykes 'fight' live on Freeview and the referee literally grabbed Sykes by the gloves and pulled him back up to make him carry on fighting he was so terrified) Valuev who I'm probably the only person in the thread saying he wasn't as gash as people make out, Ibragamov- fought once in 2008 to Wlad in a genuine contender for worst heavyweight title fight ever (Wlad slapping his jab down over and over) Sam Peter who was beaten up easily by Vitali and only beat the guy below him in the top 10, Maskaev who had been inactive for two years, Gomez who was a cruiserweight and had ONE FIGHT in 2008 that nobody cared about that went the distance apparently and then... Well, you tell me when Dimitrenko was anything worth writing home about?

That year was dull as ditchwater. The only thing exciting about it was Vitali coming back and dominating Peter to win the WBC. Other than that, the fights were crap and most people in that era were just boring fighters. Just admit it.

Edit: Also the best fighters on the 2008 list, apart from Vitali, are on the list I put up. what's the significant difference, other than big bro being back on the scene?

Cyclops wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 10:12

J-C wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 09:41

pound per pound wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 08:20A title picky on a given year? How about 2008?

Wladimir Klitschko - A dominant champion for ten years. Only Joe Louis can say the same.
Vitali Klitschko - A first ballot hall of fame fighter, and the led vote receiver in his induction year.
Ruslan Chagaev -A solid alphabet champion
Alexander Povetkin- Underrated, still highly ranked at age 40 today, 13 years after 2008
Nikolay Valuev - Won some, lost some.
Sultan Ibragimov - A swift southpaw with good power and durability who retired young
Samuel Peter - At this point, he was a puncher with a good record
Oleg Maskaev - KO'd lineal champion Rahman twice.
Juan Carlos Gomez - A slick Cuban
Alexander Dimitrenko - Okay he's was tenth, still around today so what does that tell you?

IMO hardly a rotten era. Today is a down talent in the top ten. Vlauev would be 2-8 vs the above men. Well maybe 3-7 at best.

For me, it's not so much the talent level, more that, as a fan, that era just felt very, very dull.

I can't really think any particularly memorable fights between the guys you list. Peter vs Mazkaev might have been decent, I can't really remember.

Not saying fighters have to be entertaining for my benefit but the era since Fury beat Wlad has been a lot more fun IMO.

Exactly.

Nice try, mate: but Wladamir and Vitali would never fight, so it's not like now where you have the clear number 1 and 2 signed to square off. Chagaev very boring nondescript fighter. Povetkin was held back for years from fighting Wlad at this point because he "wasn't ready" and in 2008 fought Fat Eddie Chambers and Taurus Sykes (and I watched the Sykes 'fight' live on Freeview and the referee literally grabbed Sykes by the gloves and pulled him back up to make him carry on fighting he was so terrified) Valuev who I'm probably the only person in the thread saying he wasn't as gash as people make out, Ibragamov- fought once in 2008 to Wlad in a genuine contender for worst heavyweight title fight ever (Wlad slapping his jab down over and over) Sam Peter who was beaten up easily by Vitali and only beat the guy below him in the top 10, Maskaev who had been inactive for two years, Gomez who was a cruiserweight and had ONE FIGHT in 2008 that nobody cared about that went the distance apparently and then... Well, you tell me when Dimitrenko was anything worth writing home about?

That year was dull as ditchwater. The only thing exciting about it was Vitali coming back and dominating Peter to win the WBC. Other than that, the fights were crap and most people in that era were just boring fighters. Just admit it.

Edit: Also the best fighters on the 2008 list, apart from Vitali, are on the list I put up. what's the significant difference, other than big bro being back on the scene?

I see what your all about, Now hear me out. At least Wlad kept active and fought top ten based talents. What't Fury's excuse? Do tell? Wilder was a protected hype job. Who did he beat, who? Exactly.

As a footnote Peter vs. Maskeav was a pretty good fight. Gomez at his best would be top 5 today.

I said Dimitrenko 10th let's not act like he was anything special. I see you need to. Okay. He's best known for losing to Ruiz jr who KO'd Joshua, and Chambers who you mentioned.

Ibragamiov was in some exciting fights. You should watch a bit more, with both with eyes before judging.

The heavyweight active to day hardly seem to fight top ten opponents, in some cases are very old a sign this era is NOT very good, pick easy marks for title defenses, and have iffy skills. I guess that impresses you,

Povetkin was top 10 rated until 2 weeks ago so its not like this era is light years better.

The difference is in 5 through 20 now has competent fighters and 5 through 20 then were garbage

Pov was much better than big Niko, though admittedly pov's entire career combined doesn't measure up to luis ortz's incredible win over tony 'pops' thompson

what were nik's best wins? tbh, it's not like he beat anyone particularly good, even for that time. chagaev back then won 9 or so rounds vs him, before getting beat up by wlad and clearly beaten by pov. his single best performance was probably the 120-107 domination of liakhovich, and then he had the controversial ruiz wins.

if i remember, back when valuev was active, most of the 2nd-3rd tier guys wouldnt fight each other, as they were holdin out for big klitschko money, which made it easier for guys like him to be high in the rankings, as no one else was really doing anything of note either

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 20:55 Povetkin was top 10 rated until 2 weeks ago so its not like this era is light years better.

The difference is in 5 through 20 now has competent fighters and 5 through 20 then were garbage

Povektin is stil rated. Whyte avenged his loss to the old man which explains him being ranked where he is.

https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/?weightclass=272

What is Povetkin, 40 now? When was Ortiz last significant win, he's a granpdpa over 40 now too. Ruiz jr could be good if he wasn't a fatboy. Pulev was 39 when Joshua last gave him a title shot. Wilder hasn't won a fight in a year and will be 36 in a few months. He's done. Fury ( Who tested positive for PED's ) and Joshua live off their wins over a 39 and 41 yer old Wlad. That's the top of their resume.

Does anyone dispute the above?

This division is weak and I don't see any argument that the fighters in sports #5-20 are better now. Maybe they will be but the " champions " aren't interested in fighting the up and coming young talent from the 2016 Olympic class. They would rather stay in the country of old men.

pound per pound wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 19:39

Cyclops wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 10:12

J-C wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 09:41

For me, it's not so much the talent level, more that, as a fan, that era just felt very, very dull.

I can't really think any particularly memorable fights between the guys you list. Peter vs Mazkaev might have been decent, I can't really remember.

Not saying fighters have to be entertaining for my benefit but the era since Fury beat Wlad has been a lot more fun IMO.

Exactly.

Nice try, mate: but Wladamir and Vitali would never fight, so it's not like now where you have the clear number 1 and 2 signed to square off. Chagaev very boring nondescript fighter. Povetkin was held back for years from fighting Wlad at this point because he "wasn't ready" and in 2008 fought Fat Eddie Chambers and Taurus Sykes (and I watched the Sykes 'fight' live on Freeview and the referee literally grabbed Sykes by the gloves and pulled him back up to make him carry on fighting he was so terrified) Valuev who I'm probably the only person in the thread saying he wasn't as gash as people make out, Ibragamov- fought once in 2008 to Wlad in a genuine contender for worst heavyweight title fight ever (Wlad slapping his jab down over and over) Sam Peter who was beaten up easily by Vitali and only beat the guy below him in the top 10, Maskaev who had been inactive for two years, Gomez who was a cruiserweight and had ONE FIGHT in 2008 that nobody cared about that went the distance apparently and then... Well, you tell me when Dimitrenko was anything worth writing home about?

That year was dull as ditchwater. The only thing exciting about it was Vitali coming back and dominating Peter to win the WBC. Other than that, the fights were crap and most people in that era were just boring fighters. Just admit it.

Edit: Also the best fighters on the 2008 list, apart from Vitali, are on the list I put up. what's the significant difference, other than big bro being back on the scene?

I see what your all about, Now hear me out. At least Wlad kept active and fought top ten based talents. What't Fury's excuse? Do tell? Wilder was a protected hype job. Who did he beat, who? Exactly.

As a footnote Peter vs. Maskeav was a pretty good fight. Gomez at his best would be top 5 today.

I said Dimitrenko 10th let's not act like he was anything special. I see you need to. Okay. He's best known for losing to Ruiz jr who KO'd Joshua, and Chambers who you mentioned.

Ibragamiov was in some exciting fights. You should watch a bit more, with both with eyes before judging.

The heavyweight active to day hardly seem to fight top ten opponents, in some cases are very old a sign this era is NOT very good, pick easy marks for title defenses, and have iffy skills. I guess that impresses you,

OK. I think we've gotten off to a bad start: but let's enjoy the argument? I want you to tell me how many top 10 fighters Wlad fought in 2007 and how "busy" he was? How many in 2006? In fact in all the years I mentioned? Wladamir fought old guys in those years, too. That's what happens in boxing, especially heavyweight. Old fighters have always stuck around and young fighters have beaten them. How old was Hasim Rahman when Wlad fought him? How old was Oliver McCall when the guy you think would be top 5 today, Gomez, beat him?

I remember that era and it was shite. I watched the fights! I bought Boxing News! I was there. It was all about welterweight really back in those days, wasn't it? Heavyweight was largely ignored. It got a bit more exciting after 2008, but still wasn't great, and then started to warm up a bit in 2016 and from 2017 onwards we have had some really good fights, the fighters are characters and the division has been entertaining, until COVID which has changed the game and slowed everything down. If you want to be nostalgic for the era that Valuev was prime in (and was consistently considered 'up there' as one of the best), which was the point of my original post, then fine. But until everything got shut down this particular past couple of years has been an awful lot more enjoyable.

Also, to be fair, the Ring Magazine top 10 is terrible. If you look at Boxrec's own one in Current Scene I think it's much more indicative of the real situation. And I'll agree with you, heavyweights today are far too inactive, especially guys that are amongst the best fighters. Wilder and Ruiz for instance, have done nothing since their losses, and Fury and AJ are taking an eon to get their fight on. And they're flawed: but that makes for exciting fights! COVID has potentially ballzed up what was turning out to be a fun era. Hopefully we get it back on track in the summer.

David Haye will save the division