BoxRec

where does bernardo mercado, another ko conqueror of shavers, rate compared to povetkin

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 15:59

oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 11:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 11:09 By no means a big Quarry backer. However, the guy did beat Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers. That has to count for something. That dwarfs anything Povetkin did. Quarry had had some other decent wins as well. He fought in the strongest era of the division. Povetkin is not at his his level.

He is. Quarry didn't just come up short in his big fights, he came up way short. The win over Lyle was good, but Lyle was still developing. I like the comp.

Well of course he came up short against Ali Frazier, and Norton. Not saying he was on that level.

The Lyle win was a big deal. Lyle was highly rated at the time. He had already scored some decent wins. That's bigger than anything Povetkin ever did
And Quarry beat Shavers. Those guys were a hell of a lot better than any of Povetkins wins. There other wins that were respectable as well.

Neither Povetkin or Quarry were ever close to the best. They do have that in common.
There is a huge difference though. Look at the heavyweight division when Quarry fought. Then look at it when Povetkin fought. More than a little difference in quality there.

Lyle wasn't highly rated at the time, he was in his second or third year after turning pro and he started boxing very late. Shavers lost to Bob Stallings after losing to Quarry and was ko'd by Lyle in 6 a couple of years after that. I grew up watching these guys. Let's not overrate opponents without giving them a bit of context. Both Pov and Quarry were very good HW's. Very much on par with one another.

oogiebe wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 01:03

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 15:59

oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 11:12
He is. Quarry didn't just come up short in his big fights, he came up way short. The win over Lyle was good, but Lyle was still developing. I like the comp.

Well of course he came up short against Ali Frazier, and Norton. Not saying he was on that level.

The Lyle win was a big deal. Lyle was highly rated at the time. He had already scored some decent wins. That's bigger than anything Povetkin ever did
And Quarry beat Shavers. Those guys were a hell of a lot better than any of Povetkins wins. There other wins that were respectable as well.

Neither Povetkin or Quarry were ever close to the best. They do have that in common.
There is a huge difference though. Look at the heavyweight division when Quarry fought. Then look at it when Povetkin fought. More than a little difference in quality there.

Lyle wasn't highly rated at the time, he was in his second or third year after turning pro and he started boxing very late. Shavers lost to Bob Stallings after losing to Quarry and was ko'd by Lyle in 6 a couple of years after that. I grew up watching these guys. Let's not overrate opponents without giving them a bit of context. Both Pov and Quarry were very good HW's. Very much on par with one another.

Whom do you tell this? That's dumbling alpy and for him Shavers will still be a big deal, because he was a part of the older era.

Yeah, because it's impossible to say anything good about Earnie Shaver's career. Just another pro.

oogiebe wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 01:03

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 15:59

oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021, 11:12
He is. Quarry didn't just come up short in his big fights, he came up way short. The win over Lyle was good, but Lyle was still developing. I like the comp.

Well of course he came up short against Ali Frazier, and Norton. Not saying he was on that level.

The Lyle win was a big deal. Lyle was highly rated at the time. He had already scored some decent wins. That's bigger than anything Povetkin ever did
And Quarry beat Shavers. Those guys were a hell of a lot better than any of Povetkins wins. There other wins that were respectable as well.

Neither Povetkin or Quarry were ever close to the best. They do have that in common.
There is a huge difference though. Look at the heavyweight division when Quarry fought. Then look at it when Povetkin fought. More than a little difference in quality there.

Lyle wasn't highly rated at the time, he was in his second or third year after turning pro and he started boxing very late. Shavers lost to Bob Stallings after losing to Quarry and was ko'd by Lyle in 6 a couple of years after that. I grew up watching these guys. Let's not overrate opponents without giving them a bit of context. Both Pov and Quarry were very good HW's. Very much on par with one another.

You are not remembering some of this very well.
Lyle was rated very highly at the time of the Quarry fight. He was the #4 contender. He was only behind Frazier (Champion), Ali, Foreman, and Ellis. That's it. That's pretty damn good.

He had only been a pro for a couple of years, but he was not some green kid. He had been in prison a long time and had fought a lot as an amateur. He had fought some decent competition early in his pro career.

Shavers certainly had some lapses in his career. He also had his moments. Shavers was coming off a 1st round KO of Ellis going into the Quarry fight.

Quarry fought in without question the best era in heavyweight boxing.
Povetkin fought in awful era.
Their eras are not remotely comparable. Quarry's era was much, much better.

Quarry actually has some good wins.

Sure thing. No doubt Quarry's era was better, but not is performance. I've said all I will. Enjoyed the back and forth.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 10:53 Shavers certainly had some lapses in his career. He also had his moments. Shavers was coming off a 1st round KO of Ellis going into the Quarry fight.

Knocking out past prime Ellis, who would go 2-4-1 after this to retirement, and thus going to being KOed in the 1st by Quarry is a helluva achievement, no doubt about that.

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 11:40

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 10:53 Shavers certainly had some lapses in his career. He also had his moments. Shavers was coming off a 1st round KO of Ellis going into the Quarry fight.

Knocking out past prime Ellis, who would go 2-4-1 after this to retirement, and thus going to being KOed in the 1st by Quarry is a helluva achievement, no doubt about that.

Don't forget Jose Luis Garcia. He fought in that era, so he must be an all time great. That era was great because of Ali; Frazier; Norton; and Foreman.

oogiebe wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 11:59

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 11:40

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 10:53 Shavers certainly had some lapses in his career. He also had his moments. Shavers was coming off a 1st round KO of Ellis going into the Quarry fight.

Knocking out past prime Ellis, who would go 2-4-1 after this to retirement, and thus going to being KOed in the 1st by Quarry is a helluva achievement, no doubt about that.

Don't forget Jose Luis Garcia. He fought in that era, so he must be an all time great. That era was great because of Ali; Frazier; Norton; and Foreman.

Yes, his rivalries against Charley Polite and Roberto Davila were fierce, memorable and great. Everyone should understand, that they were in the times of Ali-Frazier and Ali-Norton rivalries, so they were on par with those.

Not saying that all.
The era was great; obviously as mentioned you have Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton at the top. That is better than the top few at any other time. That alone is incredible.

However, there was more to it than just that. Besides Quarry, there were several other really good fighters who would have been right at the top in other eras: Shavers, Lyle, Young, Ellis etc.

btw- you should go by what fighter A as he ages and is worn down does after he loses to Fighter B. Looking at what he was right before it is a better indicator. Jimmy Ellis was still considered a good fighter before fought Shavers. The only guys rated a head of him were Frazier, Ali, and Foreman.

I'm not saying that every heavyweight during that time was great. There are probably over 1000 heavyweights at a given time.

I'm saying that Quarry proved that he could beat guys at the next level below Ali-Frazier-Foreman-Norton. He also lost a close decision to Ellis.
Povetkin never did anything like that. Quarry clearly deserves to be rated ahead of Povetkin. They aren't that close at all.

how does pov compare to bernardo mercado and bob stalling then, as 2 other fighters who proved they could win at the next level below norton etc? and would they beat pov

Have you ever heard of an upset? It happens sometimes in sports. Where should we rate Ross Purrity among the pantheon of greats? And you can certainly argue that Shavers was past his best against Mercado.

You have to look at the whole picture. Weigh the good against the bad. Shavers fought a ton of very good to great fighters to get an idea of how good he was. He was not a legend. He was inconsistent and had his flaws. He was always and aggressive fighter who was probably the hardest puncher whoever lived. That counts for something. But he certainly did enough to prove himself.
Guess you guys never heard of Youtube. You check it out sometime and watch some of Shavers wins. .
Quarry's win over Shavers was a big win. He had several others. Povetkin didn't.

ya but i mean those guys beat shavers my man, in your own words a win over shavers shows a guy could win at the next level below ali-frazier-foreman-norton + accomplished something way better than anything pov ever did. surely we cant use that as a trump card in some cases but then treat it as irrelevant in others when comparing to the exact same guy

so im just curious how you'd match those guys up with pov and compare their careers since the same logic applies, it's not some trap or trick question.

Quarry's win is a quality win because on balance Shavers was a very good fighter. not an ATG, but certainly very dangerous and good fighter. A look at this record and enough video clearly shows that.

If the only quality win of Quarry's career was against Earnie Shavers, then I would not consider Quarry that high. (Though I don't rate him as high as some people.) Same as I don't bring up a guy who did little but score the upset over Shavers.

However, it's not the only quality win of Quarry's career. He had others. Povetkin had none.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 15:41 Quarry's win is a quality win because on balance Shavers was a very good fighter. not an ATG, but certainly very dangerous and good fighter. A look at this record and enough video clearly shows that.

If the only quality win of Quarry's career was against Earnie Shavers, then I would not consider Quarry that high. (Though I don't rate him as high as some people.) Same as I don't bring up a guy who did little but score the upset over Shavers.

However, it's not the only quality win of Quarry's career. He had others. Povetkin had none.

Shavers was just a guy with a punch, who somehow suffered too many "upset" losses for some mysterious reason, didn't he?

Povetkin had no quality wins? B!tch, please!

so the shavers win is huge for the sake of quarry's argument, and basically makes him trump pov by a huge margin, but cant be counted for guys like stallings and mercado because those were upsets......i dont really get it.....i thought beating earnier was some mega accomplishment, those 2 guys should get major props too

Not sure why it's so difficult. I just explained it. Stallings and Mercado don't have much else. Sure it helps their case a little bit, but it's not nearly enough to rate them as high as Quarry.

Quarry has the win over Shavers plus several other good wins.

How about this Alp? Who did better in their losses? Why not look at that too!? (JK).

how would you rate mercado and stallings in their careers and head to head with pov alp? you keep not answering that

bernad and bobby did show they could win at the next level under ali-foreman-frazier-norton, and the whole "so and so beat x, which is way better than anything y did" seems to fly freely around here as a way to rank fighters

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 16:58 how does pov compare to bernardo mercado and bob stalling then, as 2 other fighters who proved they could win at the next level below norton etc? and would they beat pov

Povetkin rates above them, Mercado would be an interesting fight. Shavers pushed 100 fights, limited boxer without great stamina but another 50 fights for povetkin would probably have some results like that too.

Pov had some good wins:

Chris Byrd
Larry Donald was a pretty fair fighter
Takam
Whyte
Chagaev

A list of guys just under those guys and of course going 12 with Wlad.

I don't think his ko of Shavers rates that high. And as I said earlier Lyle was still inexperienced. I think he was fighting like from 1964 in prison fights but was only released from jail 4 years before facing Quarry. I'd bet had they fought a year or two later Lyle would've stopped Quarry.

he had his first actual amateur fight barely 3 years before he faced quarry....he certainly didnt waste much time!

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 22:51 he had his first actual amateur fight barely 3 years before he faced quarry....he certainly didnt waste much time!

Huge win....

I'd take povetkin over quarry both at their best.

oogiebe wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 22:45 Pov had some good wins:

Chris Byrd
Larry Donald was a pretty fair fighter
Takam
Whyte
Chagaev

A list of guys just under those guys and of course going 12 with Wlad.

I don't think his ko of Shavers rates that high. And as I said earlier Lyle was still inexperienced. I think he was fighting like from 1964 in prison fights but was only released from jail 4 years before facing Quarry. I'd bet had they fought a year or two later Lyle would've stopped Quarry.

Chambers win was also decent for Povetkin, as well as knockouts over Perez and Duhaupas.

Good points on Lyle too.