do other countries have a journeyman scene like the uk does?

[Coco]

I always tried my best to win, if the matching is right, the other fella is better than you.

[peter barlow]

The problem is journeymen and outmatched opponents being on televised shows and high up the cards.

Prospect Vs journeyman is not televised as much in other countries.Some journeymen in Britain must have a right few TV appearances

[Noxy]

They wouldn’t do it if there wasn’t something in it for them. I’ve no problem with it. I‘ve seen plenty of good fights with so-called journeymen. They rarely get the nod, they make the other guy work for the win though.

[Wee Tommy]

If you are not great at your sport In terms of a level for titles I see no issues with journeyman fighting for a few grand every other week. The issue I have is that I see it like a job and giving foreign boxers a wage from other countries imported here is a no no for me. I'm sure there are journeyman all over the world and very much doubt they would make the sort of money British journeyman get.

I'm guessing a journeyman Inthis country could make 5k a fight for a 4 or 6 rounder. Providing he doesn't get koed he could make a decent living fighting 3 times a month.

1000 at best. 5k is what the prospects get fighting them.

[mickey1975]

They do have managers.

[Coco]

If you are not great at your sport In terms of a level for titles I see no issues with journeyman fighting for a few grand every other week. The issue I have is that I see it like a job and giving foreign boxers a wage from other countries imported here is a no no for me. I'm sure there are journeyman all over the world and very much doubt they would make the sort of money British journeyman get.

I'm guessing a journeyman Inthis country could make 5k a fight for a 4 or 6 rounder. Providing he doesn't get koed he could make a decent living fighting 3 times a month.

1000 at best. 5k is what the prospects get fighting them.

And there are quite a few prospects fighting for nothing as they haven't sold enough tickets, need to pay the opponent, and just want to fight.
This is why nowadays you see 10-0 fighters jacking it in.

[dookus]

If you are not great at your sport In terms of a level for titles I see no issues with journeyman fighting for a few grand every other week. The issue I have is that I see it like a job and giving foreign boxers a wage from other countries imported here is a no no for me. I'm sure there are journeyman all over the world and very much doubt they would make the sort of money British journeyman get.

I'm guessing a journeyman Inthis country could make 5k a fight for a 4 or 6 rounder. Providing he doesn't get koed he could make a decent living fighting 3 times a month.

1000 at best. 5k is what the prospects get fighting them.

And there are quite a few prospects fighting for nothing as they haven't sold enough tickets, need to pay the opponent, and just want to fight.
This is why nowadays you see 10-0 fighters jacking it in.

Ridiculous eh? I am hoping things like Fightzone stop us wasting so much talent (by creating a revenue stream for small hall shows outside tickets and a few sponsors) but not banking on it

[Switch hitter]

I always tried my best to win, if the matching is right, the other fella is better than you.

I'd always win the first 1 or 2 rounds then be knackered. Working full time and boxing doesn't mix ........ but I loved every minute

[Wales]

I don’t like journeymen with 2/65 records tbh.
I get they’re needed and there’s some that have a will to try to win and give it go.
They have a place, but that place is fighting debutants only in my opinion.
Noakes last night bashing up a 2/75 guy just so Frank can sell more tickets is slowly killing boxing.
I’d happy watch two journeymen fight tho.

Exactly id rather watch 2 journeymen fight each other or 2 novices square off, this is professional boxing, the so called hardest sport in the world, it doesnt owe anyone a living, it shouldn't be used for guys to effectively throw fights so can continue to pick up a wage, if they respect the sport as much as they claim, try to win rather than survive, ive no issue with guys that try to win but they're far and few between

I agree with this although unfortunately boxing, and this in particular, will never change.

I’ve been to small hall shows where almost all the fights have been 8 lads that are 3-0, 5-0 etc… fighting 8 guys who are 1-200 2-80 etc…. and the journeyman’s sole purpose for the 4 rounds he is in there is to not get knocked out as if he does he can’t box the week after. It can make for a shit day out to be honest. I won’t name names but I’ve seen some shocking journeymen in relation to how they go the distance:

Really speaking should there be guys in there with records of maybe one or two wins but 100 loses. People say the young lads get experience and learn from the fights - but do they - or is it just a pay day?

Fans are to blame too as in boxing we still have the mentality where being undefeated matters. Having that 0 means a lot and any loss is scrutinised and the losing fighter panned for it

[Wee Tommy]

If you are not great at your sport In terms of a level for titles I see no issues with journeyman fighting for a few grand every other week. The issue I have is that I see it like a job and giving foreign boxers a wage from other countries imported here is a no no for me. I'm sure there are journeyman all over the world and very much doubt they would make the sort of money British journeyman get.

I'm guessing a journeyman Inthis country could make 5k a fight for a 4 or 6 rounder. Providing he doesn't get koed he could make a decent living fighting 3 times a month.

1000 at best. 5k is what the prospects get fighting them.

And there are quite a few prospects fighting for nothing as they haven't sold enough tickets, need to pay the opponent, and just want to fight.
This is why nowadays you see 10-0 fighters jacking it in.

Sad state of affairs mate.

[Wales]

Tom Doran made a comeback after 2 years away in June 2014. He was due to have his second comeback fight in early December 2014 but 2 days before the contest he was told he hadn’t sold enough tickets so his fight was cancelled.

Tom quit the sport at that point and told us it’s all down to ticket sales not ability.

He then got a last minute call to enter prize fighter in feb and went on to win it

[JamesPhilips]

A lot of fighters on the small hall circuit spend so much time trying to sell tickets, running around town, getting let down by people getting tickets on tick. It sucks their energy and time. Especially if they have a job on top.

Without TV, I understand the model, but There must be a better approach for the fighters..... Especially with YouTube streaming

[Wales]

There’s kind of not. Because very few people go to small hall shows for the day out. 95% are there to see their mate.

When you have the likes of AJ at Wembley 95% of people don’t know him from Adam and are there for the event.

Unfortunately, nature of the best is when starting off more tickets you sell more desirable you are.

I can guarantee you if I sold 200 tickets I’d never be on the B side or be at risk or losing until I’d got to a point where I had to step up

[Wales]

Classic example - John Fewkes a few years ago

Decent, but no more than some of the others. Maloney loved him. Brought decent crowd everytime

[KiwiRider]

If you want boxing experience, that's called sparring.
Battering a journeyman about the ring in front of paying public isn't good for boxing.

[magnus]

I'm glad the tide seems to be turning a bit amongst the hardcore - God forbid you wrote something negative about a journeyman 15 years or so ago on a forum.

Small hall boxing (and the undercards of some bigger shows) in this country has developed this weird situation where it's considered the norm to expect fans to pay out in order to watch "prospects" box their way to a 40-36 verdict against fighters who clearly aren't arsed about winning.

I've said before that both fighters should have both the ability and the desire to beat their opponent - or at worst just the latter. Too often on UK cards one boxer has neither.

I'm all for "journeymen" like Brett Fidoe - not the most naturally gifted fighter ever, but he comes in and actually tries to win, and has a few nice wins under his belt.

[margaret thatcher]

i think a lot of ppl see journeymen as the 'little guys' who are up against the system, and thus have an affection for them due to that

so when people attack the system of home fighters essentially being bought wins vs guys who dont try to win, it's seen as some sort of personal attack on the journeymen, when in fact it's a very legit crticism of a system that leads to tons of uninteresting uncompetitive fights

as mentioned, ppl like to hate on the likes of jake paul as being a phony, but if he were to buy 40-36s over dudes who werent trying he'd somehow be legit?

[Noxy]

I don’t see that. The journeymen don’t come to lie down either and they rarely get stopped. That’s what you want when you go to a show. I‘ve seen loads of what would be termed journeymen fights vs someone who is supposed to go places. They’re good fights, both guys have to work and it often goes the distance. It pads out the bill as well. If that’s what it takes to stage a show, go for it.
The last show I went to was in 2019. The main event ended early in the second round. The journeymen carried that bill and good on them.

[margaret thatcher]

the jiourneymen have records like 2-67 for a reason mate

its quite obvious they there almost entirely to lose and cover up as much as possible so they can fight again soon. them making money as pros is based on being able to box often and being counted on to lose (so that the ppl paying for guys to beat them have confidence that will actually happen). from a journeyman's perspective of maximizing earnings it would be stupid not to box in a way that ticks those boxes off. them losing is almost like an unstated agreement for being paid

and even if we assume they genuinely are trying to win , then it would suggest they are obviously overmatched by pretty much any winning record fighter in the country , to an extent that you'd have almost a perfect record picking against them vs anyone with more wins than losses . riveting to see cards stacked top to bottom with those types of fights

[Noxy]

Sure, I take the point. Look at this way, though. Would you not go to the boxing because there‘s someone like Delroy Spencer, Tony Booth or whoever on the bill? Maybe that would put you off. As for me, I like seeing those guys. They can fight as well.

[margaret thatcher]

if the card is entirely made up of house fighters vs journeymen i wouldnt be bothered


tony booth is an anomaly as well, surely he's the most winning journeyman of all time. he averaged a win or draw in 1 out of every 3 fights (actually it was slightly better than that - 37 percent of his fights)

[margaret thatcher]

and i should add that having a losing record itself doesnt make a guy the type of journeyman we are talking about

soko has a losing record but he clearly goes for it preetty much every time and obviously isnt there merely to survive so he can fight 20 times a year. to me a guy like soko is outside the standard uk journeyman circuit

[dookus]

the jiourneymen have records like 2-67 for a reason mate

its quite obvious they there almost entirely to lose and cover up as much as possible so they can fight again soon. them making money as pros is based on being able to box often and being counted on to lose (so that the ppl paying for guys to beat them have confidence that will actually happen). from a journeyman's perspective of maximizing earnings it would be stupid not to box in a way that ticks those boxes off. them losing is almost like an unstated agreement for being paid

and even if we assume they genuinely are trying to win , then it would suggest they are obviously overmatched by pretty much any winning record fighter in the country , to an extent that you'd have almost a perfect record picking against them vs anyone with more wins than losses . riveting to see cards stacked top to bottom with those types of fights

What's needed is a system where a) the sport stops believing that every new prospect needs at least 10-15 uncompetitive fights before they're ready, and b) stops treating unbeaten records as the holy grail of a prospect's worth and ditching prospects after one or two losses. If it does, then no reason remains why prospects can't fight each other instead of journeymen on the way up. Bonus: then you get two ticket sellers not one.

The whole purpose of journeymen seems to be to pad the number of fights out, and whilst I see the sense in that for the first 5 or so fights (especially for those with less amateur/unlicensed experience) it's just toxic having these cards filled with 40-36 matches and maybe one competitive headliner

[dookus]

I suspect another reason for the journeyman phenomena is that small hall tickets are costly (£40 and up) to cover expenses, so you need a lot of fights to make it appear worthwhile to the punters...but we now have a fraction of the fighters we used to, so instead of loads of prospects being available to fight it out, you end up with a few prospects fighting a rotating cast of journeymen until they get experienced enough.

It's striking to me on the Boxrec listings how shows elsewhere often have shorter undercards than the UK. Maybe instead of long cards of mostly dross, featuring prospects just trying to break even against journeymen just trying to survive, have a few competitive fights where the prospects take home a proper chunk of their sales?

[Wales]

the jiourneymen have records like 2-67 for a reason mate

its quite obvious they there almost entirely to lose and cover up as much as possible so they can fight again soon. them making money as pros is based on being able to box often and being counted on to lose (so that the ppl paying for guys to beat them have confidence that will actually happen). from a journeyman's perspective of maximizing earnings it would be stupid not to box in a way that ticks those boxes off. them losing is almost like an unstated agreement for being paid

and even if we assume they genuinely are trying to win , then it would suggest they are obviously overmatched by pretty much any winning record fighter in the country , to an extent that you'd have almost a perfect record picking against them vs anyone with more wins than losses . riveting to see cards stacked top to bottom with those types of fights

What's needed is a system where a) the sport stops believing that every new prospect needs at least 10-15 uncompetitive fights before they're ready, and b) stops treating unbeaten records as the holy grail of a prospect's worth and ditching prospects after one or two losses. If it does, then no reason remains why prospects can't fight each other instead of journeymen on the way up. Bonus: then you get two ticket sellers not one.

The whole purpose of journeymen seems to be to pad the number of fights out, and whilst I see the sense in that for the first 5 or so fights (especially for those with less amateur/unlicensed experience) it's just toxic having these cards filled with 40-36 matches and maybe one competitive headliner

I agree mate - I’ve said it for years and it’s so unfortunate that it won’t change .
There is almost an ingrained cultural behaviour with boxing fans to pan fighters when they suffer a loss and continually analysing that defeat.
UFC guys have multiple defeats on their record and it’s accepted as the culture is “anything can happen” so what move on.

Problem in boxing is not only that hard wired view point on loses, but also multiple promoters not wanting to lose or risk their cash cow - why because one loss and their the investment is gone .


Someone said further up they’d been to shows where journeymen are game yadda yadda yadda .

Journeyman can fight every week as long as they don’t get knocked out, so 95% of them are there for the sole purposes of losing but nothing getting KOd the. They can fight the week after