BoxRec

How can one earn the right to face Canelo?

One can't. Canelo is bigger than his belts so mandatory this or that has no meaning. As for proving yourself as a worthy opponent and someone who can beat Canelo... GGG has certainly done that but they already fought two times. Anyone enjoying a substantial weight advantage can't demand the fight so forget lhw's and cw's.

Canelo will fight who he wants but I think that fighting a cw who gets 100k per bout would be sort of pathetic.

H8Usernames wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 10:29How can one earn the right to face Canelo?

OK, let’s forget about Canelo and pretend he doesn’t even exist.

What does a fighter normally do to build their commercial worth and sporting legacy?

And can you honestly say that Benavidez is doing that?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 10:57

H8Usernames wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 10:29How can one earn the right to face Canelo?

OK, let’s forget about Canelo and pretend he doesn’t even exist.

What does a fighter normally do to build their commercial worth and sporting legacy?

And can you honestly say that Benavidez is doing that?

If Canelo was some abc paperchamp then I would have no problem with Benawhoever being made his mandatory challenger, it would be pretty normal.

But yes Bena is practically a nobody.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 19:21

Thomastearns wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 16:43

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 10:28 That's nonsense, Benavidez is the best opponent at SMW, whom Canelo hasn't faced. The thing is, there're bigger matchups outside of SMW or against those guys, who aren't currently at this weight, but can move there.

This is a sport, or supposed to be.

It should not be up to Canelo to decide who he is going to face next, or he's going to avoid next.

The fans should appreciate that before handing their money over to him.

If a 100m sprinter decides to make the switch to 400m running, should they be prevented from doing so?

If a boxer decides to compete in a different weight class, should they be prevented from doing so?

Are you saying that fight fans should determine the destiny of fighters?

The answer to all three questions must be the same two letter response.

The first two questions are facile. No one suggested anything of the sort.

As for the third, well it's fairly obvious that the fight fans do determine the fights, hence the interminable 'matchmaking' whereby all parties concerned attempt to get the most 'bang per buck'.

Or should that be, buck per bang?

However, if boxing is to remain a sport, and of the title champion is to retain any credibility, then the encumbents do need to demonstrate that they are prepared to take on their rivals.

Especially young and undefeated ones such as David Benavidez.

Imagine if Patterson had ducked Liston, or Frazier had ducked Foreman, or Spinks had ducked Tyson etc.

The entire history of boxing would look entirely different.

What other sport is there in which opponents are carefully selected in this manner?

Whatever they are, they are not sports.

Heck, I could be the middleweight champion of the world if I confine my opponents to my immediate neighbours and carefully selected seniors.

Give me enough time and I'll break all the records.

It's simply incredible that paying fans are condoning this kind of behaviour.

You might as well give them your money for just turning up. Of course such nonsense wouldn't have gone down well in the coliseum...

Thomastearns wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 11:41As for the third, well it's fairly obvious that the fight fans do determine the fights, hence the interminable 'matchmaking' whereby all parties concerned attempt to get the most 'bang per buck'.

Or should that be, buck per bang?

That’s a fairly reasonable stance, but if you say that fights are made to exploit demand from fans, would you agree that (from a commercial perspective) Canelo has bigger fish to fry than Benavidez?

Thomastearns wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 11:41However, if boxing is to remain a sport, and of the title champion is to retain any credibility, then the encumbents do need to demonstrate that they are prepared to take on their rivals.

Especially young and undefeated ones such as David Benavidez.

Is it reasonable to argue that fans clamouring for Canelo to face Benavidez is massively influenced by the process of elimination?

Take a look at the media articles and the threads contained within this forum from twelve months ago.

And is it reasonable to claim that it’s impossible for any fighter to truly “clean out” a division, because there’s always going to be at least one fighter that hasn’t been granted the opportunity to face the top-dog yet?

Thomastearns wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 11:41Imagine if Patterson had ducked Liston, or Frazier had ducked Foreman, or Spinks had ducked Tyson etc.

The entire history of boxing would look entirely different.

Technically-speaking, for whatever reason, fighters from yesteryear ducked others too.

Ali refused to rematch Foreman.

Hearns, Hagler, Eubank Sr., Watson and Benn all refused to face Herol 'Bomber' Graham.

We can even go much further back in time and cite Charley Burley being avoided by Jake LaMotta, Tony Zale, Henry Armstrong and Sugar Ray Robinson.

Even Jack Dempsey admitted to ducking Sam Langford.

Thomastearns wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 11:41What other sport is there in which opponents are carefully selected in this manner?

Whatever they are, they are not sports.

I strongly-suspect that commercial worth, revenue generation and profitability are the main drivers identifying which are the biggest bouts that are made for all combat sports.

Thomastearns wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 11:41then the encumbents do need to demonstrate that they are prepared to take on their rivals.

Especially young and undefeated ones such as David Benavidez.

Imagine if Patterson had ducked Liston, or Frazier had ducked Foreman, or Spinks had ducked Tyson etc.

Wooow, dude. So David Benavidez is the SMW division's Liston / Foreman / Tyson? How did you determine that? Are you sure that Edgar Berlanga isn't Mike Tyson?

Here's how you know that David Benavidez isn't the same as Mike Tyson. Going into Spinks-Tyson, Tyson had already beaten Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick, and Marvis Frazier. And he did all of that by age 21. When Benavidez does that, then you can say Alvarez is equally obliged to fight Benavidez. If Benavidez hasn't notched those kind of wins, then you're basically saying Alvarez should be obliged to fight every young, undefeated jabroni like Edgar Berlanga and David Morrell.

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 12:21

Here's how you know that David Benavidez isn't the same as Mike Tyson. Going into Spinks-Tyson, Tyson had already beaten Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick, and Marvis Frazier. And he did all of that by age 19.

woooooah there dude.

unless I got my maths wrong- Tyson was born in June 1966- then none of those fights were by age 19.

1988-03-21 Tony Tubbs 24 1 0 Tokyo Dome

1988-01-22 Larry Holmes 48 2 0 Convention Center, Atlantic City

1987-10-16 Tyrell Biggs 15 0 0 Convention Hall, Atlantic City

1987-08-01 Tony Tucker 34 0 0 Las Vegas Hilton, Hilton Center, Las Vegas


1987-05-30 Pinklon Thomas 29 1 1 Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas

1987-03-07 James Smith 19 5 0 Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas

1986-11-22 Trevor Berbick 31 4 1 Hilton Hotel, Las Vegas

1986-09-06 Alfonzo Ratliff

1986-08-17 Jose Ribalta

wiki
1986-07-26 Marvis Frazier

he was exactly 22 when he fought Spinks and exactly 20 when he fought Frazier, just FYI/FWIW

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 12:32

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 12:21

Here's how you know that David Benavidez isn't the same as Mike Tyson. Going into Spinks-Tyson, Tyson had already beaten Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick, and Marvis Frazier. And he did all of that by age 19.

woooooah there dude.

unless I got my maths wrong- Tyson was born in June 1966- then none of those fights were by age 19.

1988-03-21 Tony Tubbs 24 1 0 Tokyo Dome

1988-01-22 Larry Holmes 48 2 0 Convention Center, Atlantic City

1987-10-16 Tyrell Biggs 15 0 0 Convention Hall, Atlantic City

1987-08-01 Tony Tucker 34 0 0 Las Vegas Hilton, Hilton Center, Las Vegas


1987-05-30 Pinklon Thomas 29 1 1 Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas

1987-03-07 James Smith 19 5 0 Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas

1986-11-22 Trevor Berbick 31 4 1 Hilton Hotel, Las Vegas

1986-09-06 Alfonzo Ratliff

1986-08-17 Jose Ribalta

wiki
1986-07-26 Marvis Frazier

he was exactly 22 when he fought Spinks and exactly 20 when he fought Frazier, just FYI/FWIW

I meant uh... 21

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 12:34

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 12:32

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 12:21

Here's how you know that David Benavidez isn't the same as Mike Tyson. Going into Spinks-Tyson, Tyson had already beaten Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick, and Marvis Frazier. And he did all of that by age 19.

woooooah there dude.

unless I got my maths wrong- Tyson was born in June 1966- then none of those fights were by age 19.

1988-03-21 Tony Tubbs 24 1 0 Tokyo Dome

1988-01-22 Larry Holmes 48 2 0 Convention Center, Atlantic City

1987-10-16 Tyrell Biggs 15 0 0 Convention Hall, Atlantic City

1987-08-01 Tony Tucker 34 0 0 Las Vegas Hilton, Hilton Center, Las Vegas


1987-05-30 Pinklon Thomas 29 1 1 Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas

1987-03-07 James Smith 19 5 0 Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas

1986-11-22 Trevor Berbick 31 4 1 Hilton Hotel, Las Vegas

1986-09-06 Alfonzo Ratliff

1986-08-17 Jose Ribalta

wiki
1986-07-26 Marvis Frazier

he was exactly 22 when he fought Spinks and exactly 20 when he fought Frazier, just FYI/FWIW

I meant uh... 21

Don't you get it?
Your supposed to start each response with Whooah dude, and increase the amount of ooo's each time.
Example :
Whoooooooh dude, I ment uh... 21

ya, dave really forcing his shot beating up ky davis and ron ellis, outrageous that canelo isnt forced to fight him

and at 25 he's basically so young that he's a placenta

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 13:25 ya, dave really forcing his shot beating up ky davis and ron ellis, outrageous that canelo isnt forced to fight him

and at 25 he's basically so young that he's a placenta

Pretty experienced for 25. Maybe not with top level guys. But I remember the excuse when he was 21 with a belt, for not fighting the top guys was his inexperience.
I guess it's only 4 years, but it seems like we have been waiting forever for him to fight a top guy.

ya ppl used to go on about him being a baby etc, hes still young but 25 is no excuse, lots of fighters done far more at that age

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 14:19 ya ppl used to go on about him being a baby etc, hes still young but 25 is no excuse, lots of fighters done far more at that age

What about hughie fury?

Hughie Fury fights like a prime Muhammed Ali but without the obvious flaws, such as being too small.

hughie's just a babeh still, if he's this good at 27, he'll be double as good at 54

He's honestly not wrong, but Benavidez is still one of the most interesting possible opponents for Canelo.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 02:25 He's honestly not wrong, but Benavidez is still one of the most interesting possible opponents for Canelo.

I think there'd be more value in fighting Beterbiev, Bivol, or Joe Smith Jr. to begin unifying the 175 division. At least Gilberto Ramirez, the other world class guy at 175. After that, any cruiserweight beltholder would have novelty for the size difference and because it would make Alvarez a 5-weight world champ. The next best fight after that might be Charlo, Andrade, Munguia, or maybe... Benavidez. There's even Carlos Gongora, if Alvarez happened to want to unify all 5 SMW belts. In other words, I'm not sure if Benavidez is necessarily among the top 10 most meritorious / valuable opponents right now. Maybe he should be fighting someone better than Kyrone Davis if he wants to ensure that he's more deserving than his competition.

Dirrell, Bika, Jack, Rubio, Yldrim, Truax

Decent resume for just turning 25. 2X SMW World Champ. He has youth on his side. I think he may be better at 175 without weight draining.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 13:25 ya, dave really forcing his shot beating up ky davis and ron ellis, outrageous that canelo isnt forced to fight him

and at 25 he's basically so young that he's a placenta

That made me chuckle. Well done!

I had a look at Canelo's achievements when he reached 25 years of age:

Canelo had already engaged in 49 bouts, won world titles in two weight divisions, engaged in ten world title fights, with the Mexican having fought world champions during ten of his contests (three of them were Hall-of-Famers - two were members of the pound-for-pound elite at the time of those fights).

But apparently some people seriously believe Canelo is ducking David Benavidez!

You'd have to be a fool to think both Canelo and Benevidez hadn't accomplished impressive things at a young age. Speaking of padded resumes though, Canelo had fought his first 30+ fights in Mexico, against 99% no names. It took him about 35 fights before he got a world title.

I mentioned about 5 recognizable names of Benevidez opponents in his first 25 fights. I doubt if anyone could name 5 of Canelo's first 5 in his first 25 fights without looking them up. Benevidez got his first world title in about his first 20 fights. Very impressive if you ask me.

Regardless, he can wait Canelo out, like Canelo waited out GGG, Crusher, etc, until they are past their best. When the fight is finally forced or mandated, Canelo will retire is my guess.

Bandog wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 11:26 Speaking of padded resumes though, Canelo had fought his first 30+ fights in Mexico, against 99% no names. It took him about 35 fights before he got a world title.

Canelo was 15½ years of age when gained a split decision victory over a future IBF lightweight world champion, Miguel Vazquez, in only his third outing.

Both men were competing at 140lbs at the time of this bout, which is 28lbs lighter than the super-middleweight limit or at least 50lbs lighter than the WBC's cruiserweight limit.

Anyway, four years later, Miguel Vazquez subsequently engaged in eight IBF world lightweight title fights (only losing one of them by split decision), enjoyed a world title reign spanning more than four years, with seven of his career bouts to-date against world champions.

Therefore, Canelo defeated his first world champion in the paid ranks more than a year prior to the age David Benavidez made his pro debut.

Canelo was 20½ years of age when he captured his first world title.

A gentle reminder of Canelo's achievements when he reached 25 years of age:

Canelo had already engaged in 49 bouts, won world titles in two weight divisions, competed in ten world title fights, with the Mexican having fought world champions during ten of his contests (three of them were Hall-of-Famers - two were members of the pound-for-pound elite at the time of those fights).

The thing is Canelo took his time and perfected himself as a fighter and then he stepped up and fought Mosley at sww, Lopez and then his first real test in Trout.

As I said Benavidez is a big smw and he should move up at 175 and try to get Zurdo Ramirez.

Charlo ain't gonna fight Benavidez @168.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 11:55

Bandog wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 11:26 Speaking of padded resumes though, Canelo had fought his first 30+ fights in Mexico, against 99% no names. It took him about 35 fights before he got a world title.

Canelo was 15½ years of age when gained a split decision victory over a future IBF lightweight world champion, Miguel Vazquez, in only his third outing.

Both men were competing at 140lbs at the time of this bout, which is 28lbs lighter than the super-middleweight limit or at least 50lbs lighter than the WBC's cruiserweight limit.

Anyway, four years later, Miguel Vazquez subsequently engaged in eight IBF world lightweight title fights (only losing one of them by split decision), enjoyed a world title reign spanning more than four years, with seven of his career bouts to-date against world champions.

Therefore, Canelo defeated his first world champion in the paid ranks more than a year prior to the age David Benavidez made his pro debut.

Canelo was 20½ years of age when he captured his first world title.

A gentle reminder of Canelo's achievements when he reached 25 years of age:

Canelo had already engaged in 49 bouts, won world titles in two weight divisions, competed in ten world title fights, with the Mexican having fought world champions during ten of his contests (three of them were Hall-of-Famers - two were members of the pound-for-pound elite at the time of those fights).

Bandog wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 12:27

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 11:55

Bandog wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 11:26 Speaking of padded resumes though, Canelo had fought his first 30+ fights in Mexico, against 99% no names. It took him about 35 fights before he got a world title.

Canelo was 15½ years of age when gained a split decision victory over a future IBF lightweight world champion, Miguel Vazquez, in only his third outing.

Both men were competing at 140lbs at the time of this bout, which is 28lbs lighter than the super-middleweight limit or at least 50lbs lighter than the WBC's cruiserweight limit.

Anyway, four years later, Miguel Vazquez subsequently engaged in eight IBF world lightweight title fights (only losing one of them by split decision), enjoyed a world title reign spanning more than four years, with seven of his career bouts to-date against world champions.

Therefore, Canelo defeated his first world champion in the paid ranks more than a year prior to the age David Benavidez made his pro debut.

Canelo was 20½ years of age when he captured his first world title.

A gentle reminder of Canelo's achievements when he reached 25 years of age:

Canelo had already engaged in 49 bouts, won world titles in two weight divisions, competed in ten world title fights, with the Mexican having fought world champions during ten of his contests (three of them were Hall-of-Famers - two were members of the pound-for-pound elite at the time of those fights).

I guess in your world insincerely theatrical emojis is an effective debating ploy used to undermine real-world facts?

Good for you kid!

apollo creed wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 12:09 The thing is Canelo took his time and perfected himself as a fighter and then he stepped up and fought Mosley at sww, Lopez and then his first real test in Trout.

As I said Benavidez is a big smw and he should move up at 175 and try to get Zurdo Ramirez.

Charlo ain't gonna fight Benavidez @168.

True. Canelo made his living fighting welters and jr welters at 154 for a while.

Mall effectivley ducked Benevidez by challenging him at 160, knowing he can barely make 168.