BoxRec

bwu wrote: ↑16 Jan 2022, 20:32 For years I'd heard that Ali was supposed to rematch Floyd Patterson in April 1967, but I think that turned out to be just the hope of the latter's promotional team. There's a Reuters report from March 24, 1967 where Ali's management said he was signed to fight Oscar Bonavena in Tokyo that May. The same article quoted Thad Spencer's trainer in claiming that his fighter was getting a shot in July.

Given Ali's activity at the time and it being due to him knowing the government was going to try and stop him fighting I wouldn't be surprised if these were all signed/in talks.

As I have stated on other threads I really do believe that the exile was only partly responsibly for what Ali lost in those years. Given how young he was diagnosed with Parkinsons I don't believe it's a stretch to say he started showing the first signs of Parkinsons being a loss of mobility as early as 1970.
I don't think a lot of people understand or know how quickly Ali's comeback fight and the Frazier fight was put together. From beating Quarry to fighting Frazier it was 4 months and 10 days. Nobody knew how long Ali was going to be able to fight for and what would happen in the future. They all wanted to make money and Ali was the biggest money fight in boxing and it could all go away in a second. In the space of 4 months and 10 days Ali beat the #2 contender, the WBA #1 ranked contender and then the champ.
In less than 12 month from 1966-1967 Ali defended his title 7x. IIRC he defended that much in that amount of time because he knew that the government would try to stop him fighting at some point. If after the Folley fight the government dropped its case, there is no way IMO he keeps up that kind of activity.

I'm a bit bored and this is an interesting sliding doors moment IMO.
How I see it potentially going. I think Ali would still be a quite active champion but not as active as he was from 66-67.
1967
Ali returns in June against Patterson - The back injury + Floyd coming off a win against Bill McMurray who had recently beaten Thad Spencer. Patterson still being the biggest named contender would be the $$$ fight.
In September Ali takes on Spencer.
Ali wants a final fight in 1967 because he still has a lot of lawyer bills to pay. But he has fought 9x in the past 2 years, all fights against top contenders. He wants something a bit easier. Nearly all the other contenders at HW he has either fought or are coming off big fights late in the year. LHW champ Dick Tiger was just given the boxing writers association fighter of the year in 1966, Ring fighter of the year in 1965. Everyone in boxing circles knows Tiger has next to 0 chance but casuals and people that just want to see Ali embarrassed still will tune in. Ali massacres Tiger.
1968
Ali starts off the year after some well deserved time off in March against #4 rated Manual Ramos who is coming off a victory over Terrell in Mexico City. Ali also travels to Mexico City to take on Ramos.
Ali Travels Argentina to take on #6 rated Bonevena in May.
Ali and his management team are eyeing up the two big money fights of 1968 to close out the year. The great white hope Quarry and Olympic Gold Medalist Frazier.
Ali takes on Quarry August that year. Ali has an easy time against Quarry.
Ali and Frazier finally meet in November at MSQ the event is huge. Not as huge as the FOTC was but still big. Frazier has been the #1 contender for quite a while now and Yank Durham is confident now is the time for him to take on Ali. It's a gruelling fight and the toughest test of Ali's career but he prevails, still having his legs, movement and fight fitness.
1969
Ali doesn't rush into the new year taking some time off after a tough fight against Frazier, but his year will be a little like Louis bum of the month club. Most fights on the table for Ali are rematches or lower ranked contenders he hasn't fought yet. Ali is approaching Louis' record 25 defences so he and his team decide to have an active year after his time off at the beginning of 1969.
Ali starts the year beating Buster Mathis in April. Mathis having the title shot lined up doesn't fight Quarry in March that year and thus doesn't retire early.
Ali takes on Leotis Martin 2 months later in June winning easily.
Ali returns in August to face Al 'Blue' Lewis, taking another easy win.
He takes on Mac Foster in October, taking another easy win.
Liston is coming off some good wins and is once again top 10 ranked. Ali wants a final fight against Liston that doesn't end in some kind of controversy. His team isn't that positive about the fight because they don't believe it will make much money but Ali pushes for it. He fights Liston in December and gets a one sided victory against the slower, older Liston.
1969 closes with Ali having defended his title 21 times. Frazier is still a buzz saw at HW destroying everyone he faces much like in his reign. Fans are pushing for another Ali vs Frazier fight but both teams know that the longer they make the fans wait the bigger the event will be. Yank Durham also believes despite his dominating performances Ali is starting to slow slightly.
1970
By 1970 there isn't many viable fights for Ali that aren't rematches. The big rematch everyone wants to see is against Frazier but both teams are content to build even more buzz for the fight. There is talk of lining the fight up to be Ali's 25th or 26th defence of his title. Jimmy Ellis is highly ranked and travelling well, but being a team mate of Ali's neither is in a rush to fight the other and Ellis knows Ali is the far superior fighter.
Ali begins the year in March by once again travelling to Canada and taking on Chuvalo in a rematch.
2 months later Ali is back facing Dave Zyglewicz who never faces Frazier and gets his underserved shot given to him by Ali instead of Frazier.
Ali rematches Quarry taking another victory in August.
In November Ali takes on Bob Foster the LHW champion in his 25th defence. Ali equals Joe Louis record of 25 defences. It is now becoming a bit more obvious that Ali is slowing as he gets older and probably as a result of the onset of Parkinson's.
By the end of 1970 there is more buzz than ever for Ali vs Frazier. Due to some lackluster performances during the year its obvious that Ali is slowing down. His movement not as brilliant as it once was. The main difference though is Ali's process to adapt to his slight decline is much smoother than when he came back after exile and immediately had to adapt his style. There is no ring rust and his fitness hasn't waned. This version of Ali is still better than the Ali who came back from exile.
1971
Ali and Frazier finally face off in a rematch. Frazier's only loss is to Ali and he has been dominant in his other fights. People who still hate Ali pay to see Frazier make sure that Ali doesn't break Joe Louis' record. Yank Durham is confident his man can beat Ali. The rematch takes place on the 8th of March. The fight is tougher and closer than their first fight with Frazier having more success than he did in their first fight. The difference here between the FOTC and this fight is Ali is still at peak fitness and doesn't slow down, his legs are stronger. Frazier and Ali push each other to the brink, Ali prevails though but only just. Frazier is once again the toughest fight of Ali's career pushing him even more than he did in their first meeting.
Much like what happened after the FOTC Ali and Ellis realise that this is their best chance to make some good money together and Ali wants to give his friend a great pay day. Ali also doesn't want to jump straight into another tough fight after Frazier. The fight goes down like the actual fight they had did.
Instead of taking on Jeurgen Blin in November Ali takes him on in September in England in what is considered a tune up fight and help create more interest for an Ali v Bugner fight planned to take place as a big event later that year in the UK. Bugner fights Jack Bodell on as the co-main feature bout. Bugner as he would do in real events loses to Bodell while Ali breezes past Blin.
Ali successfully defends his title against Bodell in November at Wembley.
By the end of 1971 Frazier is still the #1 ranked contender. George Foreman is starting to rise through the ranks quickly and there isn't a whole lot of fights for Ali against top contenders that aren't rematches.
1972
Ali has no need to be as active as he was in reality in 1972. He has had 29 defences of his title. While he is still the best HW in the world there is only a whisker between himself and Frazier. Ali and his team opt to slow down defences. Ali is getting older and burnt out. He has been champion for 8 years and now he has had his 30th birthday, fighting every couple of months doesn't seem to be a necessity.
This timeline and reality line up with Ali defending his title against Patterson for the 30th time in September in Floyds farewell fight. Floyd is loved enough to get the 3rd Ali fight and another title shot without much complaining.
Ali vs Bugner goes down in late December of 1972 instead of February of 1973.
1973
Ali and Norton have their pair of fights. Norton wins the first to take the title in a huge upset. Ali wins the return to reclaim the title.
Ali then takes on a soft touch Rudi Lubbers in November instead of October.
Frazier of course gets destroyed by Foreman who by the end of 1973 is clearly the #1 contender. Foreman takes the NABF strap from Frazier. Ali's handlers aren't keen for Ali to fight Foreman and won't until they have to, hoping someone else can fluke a win over Foreman.
1974
Ali defends against Wepner in February.
Foreman destroys Norton and the stage is set for the Rumble in the Jungle. Despite being the champion everyone can see Ali isn't the fighter he was in his prime.

And the rest goes like it did.

p4p1 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 02:11 Given how young he was diagnosed with Parkinsons I don't believe it's a stretch to say he started showing the first signs of Parkinsons being a loss of mobility as early as 1970.

I'm not sure it was that early. There was a study conducted by speech scientists and they reported slurring and slowed down speech in 1978 which was six years before his Parkinson’s diagnosis in 1984.

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 02:35

p4p1 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 02:11 Given how young he was diagnosed with Parkinsons I don't believe it's a stretch to say he started showing the first signs of Parkinsons being a loss of mobility as early as 1970.

I'm not sure it was that early. There was a study conducted by speech scientists and they reported slurring and slowed down speech in 1978 which was six years before his Parkinson’s diagnosis in 1984.

You might very well be right. I’m not an expert or a doctor. I just wonder why he was never able to regain what he lost during his exile. He wasn’t an old man, he did do some training and sparring while he was banned. I can understand why his movement wasn’t what it used to be when he first came back. Regardless of how fit he did or didn’t keep himself while he wasn’t fighting it would take some time to be able to ‘dance’ for 15 rounds again but he was never really able to. He never regained his reaction/reflexes, again you would expect him to be a bit rusty after his layoff but he never regained what he once had. That could be due to him having to change his style with the loss of his movement which is what a lot of his head movement was based around.
Of course the sample size of athletes who stopped for 3 1/2 years in their mid 20s and going back to elite sport is incredibly small if not just 1.
I believe an earlier sign than speech slurring is a softening of someone’s voice or it sounding hoarse.





I don’t know if it’s because of the different setting but his voice had definitely sounds like it changed over that time period. Definitely softer IMO. I’m not saying it’s undeniable proof that Parkinson’s may have been impacting Ali before most people realised.
Some of the other signs such as aches and pains would be considered normal for a professional athlete to have. These guys pushed themselves to breaking point most days of the week. Complaining that your sore or stiff would hardly raise anybody eyebrows. Especially after you’ve had a long lay off. Apparently it’s common for these things to be misdiagnosed as tendinitis etc.

Parkinson’s diagnosis can take a long time. It’s not something most doctors look for in someone who is relatively young. According to Michael J Fox it can take years before the right diagnosis is done. I also have read that the progression of symptoms can be much slower the younger someone is. I think it’s easy just to blame the lay off for why he had deteriorated so much and to some extent I’m sure it was a major cause of it, at the very least in his first year or so back. I just wonder if it was a combination of things that included Parkinson’s and due to circumstances many earlier symptoms may have or could have been put down to his job, his lay off, better competition, general wear and tear as well as doctors not looking for that kind of diagnosis in a sub 30 year old fighter.

p4p1 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 06:47

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 02:35

p4p1 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 02:11 Given how young he was diagnosed with Parkinsons I don't believe it's a stretch to say he started showing the first signs of Parkinsons being a loss of mobility as early as 1970.

I'm not sure it was that early. There was a study conducted by speech scientists and they reported slurring and slowed down speech in 1978 which was six years before his Parkinson’s diagnosis in 1984.

You might very well be right. I’m not an expert or a doctor. I just wonder why he was never able to regain what he lost during his exile. He wasn’t an old man, he did do some training and sparring while he was banned. I can understand why his movement wasn’t what it used to be when he first came back.

Parkinson’s diagnosis can take a long time. It’s not something most doctors look for in someone who is relatively young. According to Michael J Fox it can take years before the right diagnosis is done. I also have read that the progression of symptoms can be much slower the younger someone is.

I guess no one really knows but I doubt his change of style was a result of Parkinson's in 1970, thats quite a specific and big alteration to make and link that to a neurological issue alone. Plus the fact Ali's change of style coincided with his layoff makes me think its unrelated. Unless in those three years he was out the ring Parkinsons affected him so much he couldn't move as well which doesn't really add up as that's quite a major symptom to go unnoticed.. Maybe as simple as his knees couldn't take it anymore.

I think he would have retired from Boxing by 1974.

Caractacus wrote: ↑22 Jan 2022, 15:21 I think he would have retired from Boxing by 1974.

I agree around 1974 he probably would of called it a career. He may have gone undefeated but we will never know