BoxRec

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 16:58

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 16:34 I agree. He did better than expected against Hagler and worse against Hearns.

I think he had no English for either fight, so not a factor.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 16:20

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 16:58

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 16:34 I agree. He did better than expected against Hagler and worse against Hearns.

I think he had no English for either fight, so not a factor.

He didn't know English when he whupped Leonard when BOTH WERE AT THEIR VERY BEST. Right, my man?

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 16:17 Duran was better. More longevity. More fights. And held the crown longer than Sugar Ray.

Duran never lost to a guy in his prime that was smaller and coming from a smaller weight class like Duran whupped Leonard. That in itself was a big accomplishment.

Can you imagine a Super Bantamweight featherweight or jr Lightweight beating Duran toe to toe with Duran clutching and grabbing for survival? Think about that!

The Super Bantamweight champion (Wilfredo Gomez), didn't want nothing to do with Duran. Neither the Featherweight champion (Danny Lopez). And neither the great Alexis Arguello who was featherweight and jr Lightweight champion.

But, what makes me laugh is that Alp wants to put Leonard's wins although extraordinary, that Duran didn't do.

First, all of Leonard's best wins except with Marvelous were at Welterweight. Duran fought Wilfred Benitez and Thomas Hearns at 154lbs, not 147lbs. So that is out of the question. If Duran would have lost to those 2 at 147lbs, then, BINGO! End of story, Leonard is better. But, it didn't happen that way. They fought at 154.

Second, what happened when Leonard fought Hearns at 168lbs? Who won?

Third, so it seems to me that THE WEIGHT had a lot to do with Duran when he fought Benitez and Hearns. Duran was THE FIRST ONE to challenge Marvelous at Marvelous' PRIME. Sugar Ray didn't do it. But, like always, he had to manipulate the proceedings: bigger gloves, 12 rounds, larger ring, thumbless gloves, and Marvelous FADING.

Fourth, it was obvious of that so called No Mas fiasco that it was a NATIONALISTIC PLOT to get the crown back. Leonard and America and Howard Cossell were EMBARRASSED. A guy that was considered a bully, with NO ENGLISH, no education, a savage, a threat to America in boxing should not be #1. Our Golden Boy got yo get the title back. Quickly!, if they can. And they were SUCCESSFUL. They BAITED Duran's management team behind his back with $8 million dollars....A sum that they have never ever seen in their life. That was not SPORSTMANSHIP, but a brilliant strategy to put American boxing back on top.

Leonard fought Benitez and Hearns at 147. What make you think that Duran could not beat them at that weight class?

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 17:56 It was also in the Duran book that he was absolutely terrified of Hearns. He couldn’t make eye contact with him. A few Lbs in weight didn’t cause that. Neither did his lack of English.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 17:56

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 16:17 Duran was better. More longevity. More fights. And held the crown longer than Sugar Ray.

Duran never lost to a guy in his prime that was smaller and coming from a smaller weight class like Duran whupped Leonard. That in itself was a big accomplishment.

Can you imagine a Super Bantamweight featherweight or jr Lightweight beating Duran toe to toe with Duran clutching and grabbing for survival? Think about that!

The Super Bantamweight champion (Wilfredo Gomez), didn't want nothing to do with Duran. Neither the Featherweight champion (Danny Lopez). And neither the great Alexis Arguello who was featherweight and jr Lightweight champion.

But, what makes me laugh is that Alp wants to put Leonard's wins although extraordinary, that Duran didn't do.

First, all of Leonard's best wins except with Marvelous were at Welterweight. Duran fought Wilfred Benitez and Thomas Hearns at 154lbs, not 147lbs. So that is out of the question. If Duran would have lost to those 2 at 147lbs, then, BINGO! End of story, Leonard is better. But, it didn't happen that way. They fought at 154.

Second, what happened when Leonard fought Hearns at 168lbs? Who won?

Third, so it seems to me that THE WEIGHT had a lot to do with Duran when he fought Benitez and Hearns. Duran was THE FIRST ONE to challenge Marvelous at Marvelous' PRIME. Sugar Ray didn't do it. But, like always, he had to manipulate the proceedings: bigger gloves, 12 rounds, larger ring, thumbless gloves, and Marvelous FADING.

Fourth, it was obvious of that so called No Mas fiasco that it was a NATIONALISTIC PLOT to get the crown back. Leonard and America and Howard Cossell were EMBARRASSED. A guy that was considered a bully, with NO ENGLISH, no education, a savage, a threat to America in boxing should not be #1. Our Golden Boy got yo get the title back. Quickly!, if they can. And they were SUCCESSFUL. They BAITED Duran's management team behind his back with $8 million dollars....A sum that they have never ever seen in their life. That was not SPORSTMANSHIP, but a brilliant strategy to put American boxing back on top.

Leonard fought Benitez and Hearns at 147. What make you think that Duran could not beat them at that weight class?

Because every time Hearns landed he looked like he wanted to shit his pants. He got beaten so bad he was literally one of Tommys highlight reels.

It was also in the Duran book that he was absolutely terrified of Hearns. He couldn’t make eye contact with him. A few Lbs in weight didn’t cause that. Neither did his lack of English.

Giancarlo wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 18:25

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 17:56 It was also in the Duran book that he was absolutely terrified of Hearns. He couldn’t make eye contact with him. A few Lbs in weight didn’t cause that. Neither did his lack of English.

Yes, Duran looked very passive in the intros and when the fight started it was immediately obvious he didn't fancy the job

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 18:51

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 17:56

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 16:17 Duran was better. More longevity. More fights. And held the crown longer than Sugar Ray.

Duran never lost to a guy in his prime that was smaller and coming from a smaller weight class like Duran whupped Leonard. That in itself was a big accomplishment.

Can you imagine a Super Bantamweight featherweight or jr Lightweight beating Duran toe to toe with Duran clutching and grabbing for survival? Think about that!

The Super Bantamweight champion (Wilfredo Gomez), didn't want nothing to do with Duran. Neither the Featherweight champion (Danny Lopez). And neither the great Alexis Arguello who was featherweight and jr Lightweight champion.

But, what makes me laugh is that Alp wants to put Leonard's wins although extraordinary, that Duran didn't do.

First, all of Leonard's best wins except with Marvelous were at Welterweight. Duran fought Wilfred Benitez and Thomas Hearns at 154lbs, not 147lbs. So that is out of the question. If Duran would have lost to those 2 at 147lbs, then, BINGO! End of story, Leonard is better. But, it didn't happen that way. They fought at 154.

Second, what happened when Leonard fought Hearns at 168lbs? Who won?

Third, so it seems to me that THE WEIGHT had a lot to do with Duran when he fought Benitez and Hearns. Duran was THE FIRST ONE to challenge Marvelous at Marvelous' PRIME. Sugar Ray didn't do it. But, like always, he had to manipulate the proceedings: bigger gloves, 12 rounds, larger ring, thumbless gloves, and Marvelous FADING.

Fourth, it was obvious of that so called No Mas fiasco that it was a NATIONALISTIC PLOT to get the crown back. Leonard and America and Howard Cossell were EMBARRASSED. A guy that was considered a bully, with NO ENGLISH, no education, a savage, a threat to America in boxing should not be #1. Our Golden Boy got yo get the title back. Quickly!, if they can. And they were SUCCESSFUL. They BAITED Duran's management team behind his back with $8 million dollars....A sum that they have never ever seen in their life. That was not SPORSTMANSHIP, but a brilliant strategy to put American boxing back on top.

Leonard fought Benitez and Hearns at 147. What make you think that Duran could not beat them at that weight class?

Because every time Hearns landed he looked like he wanted to shit his pants. He got beaten so bad he was literally one of Tommys highlight reels.

It was also in the Duran book that he was absolutely terrified of Hearns. He couldn’t make eye contact with him. A few Lbs in weight didn’t cause that. Neither did his lack of English.

Well, if you think that Thomas Hearns beats Duran at every weight under 154lbs, then that is your opinion.

My opinion is that Duran, nor Benitez nor Leonard beat Hearns at 154lbs and above. Because is always about THE WEIGHT. THE WEIGHT. Hearns frame suits better than those fellas at 154lbs and above. If it's not true, then why Leonard didn't beat him at 168lbs?

Hearns doesn't beat Duran at 147lbs in my view. Wrong matchup my ass!

And Why I say this? Hearns' legs were feeble at 147lbs. Not sturdy enough for a full 15-round fight. Once Duran gets inside, it would have been all over because Hearns doesn't had the knowledge of fighting inside which is an art in boxing.

Hearns lost against guys that put pressure on him.

Aaron Pryor did it at 135lbs. Leonard did it once he put pressure at 147lbs. And Marvelous did it. So all those 3 could beat Hearns but not Duran which was one of the best pressure fighters and inside-fighting technicians that the sport of boxing ever saw? GTFOH!

Duran would have killed him at 147. If Randy Shields lasted 11 rounds with Hearns at 147, I imagine what Duran would have done.

So, Randy Shields had better chin and was a better fighter than Duran at 147?

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 20:37

Giancarlo wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 18:25

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 17:56 It was also in the Duran book that he was absolutely terrified of Hearns. He couldn’t make eye contact with him. A few Lbs in weight didn’t cause that. Neither did his lack of English.

Yes, Duran looked very passive in the intros and when the fight started it was immediately obvious he didn't fancy the job

I’m sure it was his manager quoted in the book saying Duran was petrified of Hearns, in an almost superstitious manner.

I feel Duran was Hearns best KO. He absolutely dominated and destroyed him. I see Hearns winning anytime at any weight.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 20:39

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 18:51

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 17:56


Because every time Hearns landed he looked like he wanted to shit his pants. He got beaten so bad he was literally one of Tommys highlight reels.

It was also in the Duran book that he was absolutely terrified of Hearns. He couldn’t make eye contact with him. A few Lbs in weight didn’t cause that. Neither did his lack of English.

Well, if you think that Thomas Hearns beats Duran at every weight under 154lbs, then that is your opinion.

My opinion is that Duran, nor Benitez nor Leonard beat Hearns at 154lbs and above. Because is always about THE WEIGHT. THE WEIGHT. Hearns frame suits better than those fellas at 154lbs and above. If it's not true, then why Leonard didn't beat him at 168lbs?

Hearns doesn't beat Duran at 147lbs in my view. Wrong matchup my ass!

And Why I say this? Hearns' legs were feeble at 147lbs. Not sturdy enough for a full 15-round fight. Once Duran gets inside, it would have been all over because Hearns doesn't had the knowledge of fighting inside which is an art in boxing.

Hearns lost against guys that put pressure on him.

Aaron Pryor did it at 135lbs. Leonard did it once he put pressure at 147lbs. And Marvelous did it. So all those 3 could beat Hearns but not Duran which was one of the best pressure fighters and inside-fighting technicians that the sport of boxing ever saw? GTFOH!

Duran would have killed him at 147. If Randy Shields lasted 11 rounds with Hearns at 147, I imagine what Duran would have done.

So, Randy Shields had better chin and was a better fighter than Duran at 147?

Did Duran have any English against Hearns? No. Did he land a decent punch? No
Did he get absolutely obliterated, like It was man against boy? Yes.

I rest my case.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Guess I disagree with that analysis for multiple reasons.

First, we need to get away from the Duran was always a lightweight way of thinking. Most fighters move up. It's the rule, not the exception. Countless guys have done.
If done gradually (as Duran did) there is no reason why a guy can do just well. A guy weighing 135 at the ager of 20, can naturally grow to 147 or 154 by his late 20s. He loses a little speed, gains a little strength, just like the bigger opponents he is now facing. He is also more experienced.
(I would also argue that Duran was no better at 135 than 147. Don't see any evidence that is contrary to that.)

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Duran was routinely fighting over 140 for several years before he even fought Leonard, an many other between 135-140. He actually had more fights over 135 than Leonard had fights. He was a natural 147 when he fought Leonard. It wasn't like he had very little exposure to 147 like Leonard had at 160 when he beat Hagler. Or a long layoff for that matter.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02
Even if you disagree with all this, think of it this way- Don't count the 3rd fight. In fact throw out all of Duran's losses after the 2nd fight. Leonard. Count winning a tough 15 round decision as equal to winning by TKO8.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Who, overall, beat better opponents?
Fighter A and fighter B fought each other twice, and each won once. Without anything else to go on, they are even.
Fighter A never fought anyone else in the Top 50 of all time. Fight B beat 3 guys (lets call them Wilfred, Tommy and Marvin) that are in the top 50 of all time.
You would have rate Fighter B higher. And we normally do. Even by bending over backwards for Duran, Leonard still rates higher than Duran by how fighters are generally rated.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 21:57

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 20:39

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 18:51
Well, if you think that Thomas Hearns beats Duran at every weight under 154lbs, then that is your opinion.

My opinion is that Duran, nor Benitez nor Leonard beat Hearns at 154lbs and above. Because is always about THE WEIGHT. THE WEIGHT. Hearns frame suits better than those fellas at 154lbs and above. If it's not true, then why Leonard didn't beat him at 168lbs?

Hearns doesn't beat Duran at 147lbs in my view. Wrong matchup my ass!

And Why I say this? Hearns' legs were feeble at 147lbs. Not sturdy enough for a full 15-round fight. Once Duran gets inside, it would have been all over because Hearns doesn't had the knowledge of fighting inside which is an art in boxing.

Hearns lost against guys that put pressure on him.

Aaron Pryor did it at 135lbs. Leonard did it once he put pressure at 147lbs. And Marvelous did it. So all those 3 could beat Hearns but not Duran which was one of the best pressure fighters and inside-fighting technicians that the sport of boxing ever saw? GTFOH!

Duran would have killed him at 147. If Randy Shields lasted 11 rounds with Hearns at 147, I imagine what Duran would have done.

So, Randy Shields had better chin and was a better fighter than Duran at 147?

Did Duran have any English against Hearns? No. Did he land a decent punch? No
Did he get absolutely obliterated, like It was man against boy? Yes.

I rest my case.

Randy Shields is better than Roberto Duran at 147lbs. It seems to me that you don't know shiit about boxing.

p4p1 wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 00:28

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Guess I disagree with that analysis for multiple reasons.

First, we need to get away from the Duran was always a lightweight way of thinking. Most fighters move up. It's the rule, not the exception. Countless guys have done.
If done gradually (as Duran did) there is no reason why a guy can do just well. A guy weighing 135 at the ager of 20, can naturally grow to 147 or 154 by his late 20s. He loses a little speed, gains a little strength, just like the bigger opponents he is now facing. He is also more experienced.
(I would also argue that Duran was no better at 135 than 147. Don't see any evidence that is contrary to that.)

Duran's best weight was clearly at 135. It is where he more or less spent most of his prime. His punching power was much better at the weight. At 5'7 his frame was much more suited to the weight. Other than that he was on the wrong side of 30 for most of his post 135lb reign career and had already been a pro for 14+ years.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Duran was routinely fighting over 140 for several years before he even fought Leonard, an many other between 135-140. He actually had more fights over 135 than Leonard had fights. He was a natural 147 when he fought Leonard. It wasn't like he had very little exposure to 147 like Leonard had at 160 when he beat Hagler. Or a long layoff for that matter.

Poor argument. That doesn't mean he wasn't better at the 135lb limit. Plenty of champions through history have taken non-title fights over the weight limit in which they are champion. Plenty of fighters took part in similar practices between title fights. Again, just because your body naturally puts on weight as you get older doesn't mean that weight is your best fighting weight.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02
Even if you disagree with all this, think of it this way- Don't count the 3rd fight. In fact throw out all of Duran's losses after the 2nd fight. Leonard. Count winning a tough 15 round decision as equal to winning by TKO8.

They're not, however one guy was at his best weight, in the middle of his prime while the other one was above his best weight and coming to the end of his. That doesn't excuse Duran's behaviour but if Danny Lopez, Arguello, Pedroza, Serrano etc at 29 had jumped up in weight to challenge a 24 year old Duran and beat him, you would hold that against Duran in a way you don't hold against Leonard.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Who, overall, beat better opponents?
Fighter A and fighter B fought each other twice, and each won once. Without anything else to go on, they are even.
Fighter A never fought anyone else in the Top 50 of all time. Fight B beat 3 guys (lets call them Wilfred, Tommy and Marvin) that are in the top 50 of all time.
You would have rate Fighter B higher. And we normally do. Even by bending over backwards for Duran, Leonard still rates higher than Duran by how fighters are generally rated.

Does a scaled down Tommy Hearns last 15 rounds against a prime Duran at 135? Doubtful.
Does a 135lb version of Benitez have the same outcome as the 154lb version. Probably not, though Benitez's style would likely always give Duran problems. However at 135lbs Duran was a totally different animal.
Disregarding that Duran had his prime years at or around 135lbs is absurd. Of the 4 kings, I he is the only one who fought the other 3 (and throw in Benítez if you want to) at their best weight while he wasn't at his.

Like I said above, personally, I don't think there is a lot in it. I give the edge to Duran, His win against a prime Leonard being one of those reasons. That he was able to still have so much success in his 30's above his best weight while not having a frame that was all that great for those weights at the time is a testament to how great he really was. If Leonard didn't have his eye issues etc the argument could be null and void, but after Leonard beat Duran for the first time he only had 8 more wins. Longevity in a sport like boxing is an important aspect when rating a career.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 03:52

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 21:57

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 20:39

Did Duran have any English against Hearns? No. Did he land a decent punch? No
Did he get absolutely obliterated, like It was man against boy? Yes.

I rest my case.

Randy Shields is better than Roberto Duran at 147lbs. It seems to me that you don't know shiit about boxing.

Depends if Duran has no English. If not, he’s in trouble.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:35

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 03:52

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 21:57

Randy Shields is better than Roberto Duran at 147lbs. It seems to me that you don't know shiit about boxing.

Depends if Duran has no English. If not, he’s in trouble.

I know, Shields spoke better English than Duran. It is his natural language, right?

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:37

elmersalsa wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:35

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 03:52

Depends if Duran has no English. If not, he’s in trouble.

I know, Shields spoke better English than Duran. It is his natural language, right?

You brought English into it my man.

Why are you so obsessed with Randy Shields?

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:37

elmersalsa wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:35

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 03:52

Depends if Duran has no English. If not, he’s in trouble.

I know, Shields spoke better English than Duran. It is his natural language, right?

You brought English into it my man.

Why are you so obsessed with Randy Shields?

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Mar 2022, 12:19

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:37

elmersalsa wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:35

I know, Shields spoke better English than Duran. It is his natural language, right?

You brought English into it my man.

Why are you so obsessed with Randy Shields?

I brought up that Duran didn't know English because American boxing and the press couldn't accept that a Latino guy, with no English, considered a bully, with no class nor education couldn't be #1 after whupping their #1 Golden boy. It was UNACCEPTABLE!

Maybe you are not American and didn't understand the ideology of the times. Panama took the Panama Canal back from the US in a treaty in 1977. The canal was supposed to be given back to Panama by the year 2000. Duran, a Panamanian, was considered a bully, a no class bum, with no English and a dirty fighter at that. No American fighter at his weight at 135lbs, could not beat him.

Now appears the Golden Boy, Sugar Ray Leonard. The MAN that got to save American boxing. The media darling. He was Something that nobody has seen before with lightning speed of hands and feet. He was the ONE that the American media wanted. He was the one, because of being a Welterweight, should destroy Manos de Piedra.

What happened? DURAN KICKED HIS ASS FROM POST TO POST in Montreal. Leonard got paid $10 million dollars for an ass whupping. Duran collected $1 million? What the fuuck was that?

And then, the American media wanted the people to believe that the fight was close. Ain't that a bitch! The TRUTH OF THE MATTER was that Duran kicked his ass so bad that Sugar Ray's face looked like someone hit him with a pipe in his face. American boxing and media were EMBARRASSED. Sugar Ray got EMBARRASSED. How a man dissed his wife, that was smaller than he and coming from 12 pounds under kicked his ass? Was it "I didn't fight my fight"? My ass! You got whupped!

That is why that second fight was as fishy as it came. The American media, American boxing and the Golden Boy had to be REDEEMED. Quickly! If they can.

And they got their revenge. It was a total NATIONALISTIC PLOT to destroy Duran. They knew that he was not ready.

Duran's management although that got baited for the $8 million dollars, asked for more time for Duran to train. Guess what, homeboy? They didn't get it. They fell right into the American agenda trap.

Plus, if they win. No rematch. No matter what. No rematch for that Panamanian bully.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑13 Mar 2022, 17:49

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Mar 2022, 12:19

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 11:37

You brought English into it my man.

Why are you so obsessed with Randy Shields?

I brought up that Duran didn't know English because American boxing and the press couldn't accept that a Latino guy, with no English, considered a bully, with no class nor education couldn't be #1 after whupping their #1 Golden boy. It was UNACCEPTABLE!

Maybe you are not American and didn't understand the ideology of the times. Panama took the Panama Canal back from the US in a treaty in 1977. The canal was supposed to be given back to Panama by the year 2000. Duran, a Panamanian, was considered a bully, a no class bum, with no English and a dirty fighter at that. No American fighter at his weight at 135lbs, could not beat him.

Now appears the Golden Boy, Sugar Ray Leonard. The MAN that got to save American boxing. The media darling. He was Something that nobody has seen before with lightning speed of hands and feet. He was the ONE that the American media wanted. He was the one, because of being a Welterweight, should destroy Manos de Piedra.

What happened? DURAN KICKED HIS ASS FROM POST TO POST in Montreal. Leonard got paid $10 million dollars for an ass whupping. Duran collected $1 million? What the fuuck was that?

And then, the American media wanted the people to believe that the fight was close. Ain't that a bitch! The TRUTH OF THE MATTER was that Duran kicked his ass so bad that Sugar Ray's face looked like someone hit him with a pipe in his face. American boxing and media were EMBARRASSED. Sugar Ray got EMBARRASSED. How a man dissed his wife, that was smaller than he and coming from 12 pounds under kicked his ass? Was it "I didn't fight my fight"? My ass! You got whupped!

That is why that second fight was as fishy as it came. The American media, American boxing and the Golden Boy had to be REDEEMED. Quickly! If they can.

And they got their revenge. It was a total NATIONALISTIC PLOT to destroy Duran. They knew that he was not ready.

Duran's management although that got baited for the $8 million dollars, asked for more time for Duran to train. Guess what, homeboy? They didn't get it. They fell right into the American agenda trap.

Plus, if they win. No rematch. No matter what. No rematch for that Panamanian bully.

The only thing fishy about the second fight was Durans quitting. 6 months is enough time to get in shape. Duran should not have partied he should have been ready for his best ever payday.

I also disagree that Duran kicked Rays ass. He did win the fight but it was very close. Both men fought great. Duran drew Ray into his type of fight and it paid off. Ray made Duran fight his fight in the rematch and he was successful. I wanted Duran to win both. He didn’t.

Duran had many fights at welterweight to prepare. He was superb at 147 that night, just as he was superb at 154 vs Moore and 157 Vs Hagler.