BoxRec

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑26 Mar 2022, 02:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Mar 2022, 01:12 I hope whoever had the idea to start up the Bridgerweight division dies in a fire. That's my thoughts on it.

By smoke or by the flames ?

Interested to gauge the hatred

I’m cool with it

How can a 210lb guy, unable to make 200lbs, feasibly ever be at his best to make a weight to fight a prime Tyson fury.

RScarf1 wrote: ↑25 Mar 2022, 06:11If Evander Holyfield was young now and trying to move from cruiserwright to heavyweight, it would be more difficult to get above 224 pounds as opposed to 215.

Evander Holyfield’s first world heavyweight title fight took place 31½ years ago.

The last time Evander won a world heavyweight title fight was 23½ years ago.

Excluding anomalously large men from consideration (specifically Foreman, Douglas and Bowe), the average weight of an opponent that was defeated by Holyfield in world heavyweight title bouts was only 223¾lbs.

The average weight of all the winners of the world heavyweight title bouts for the decade immediately prior to Evander Holyfield’s first title victory over James ‘Buster’ Douglas, was only 219¼lbs.

RScarf1 wrote: ↑25 Mar 2022, 06:11It seems that the WBC did not look at boxing history too closely. They were just saying heavyweights are getting taller and heavier, so this is what we are doing. As I stated, this was not done well.

Deontay Wilder and Oleksandr Usyk are the only fighters within the last 11½ years to have won world title bouts weighing 224lbs or less.

The average weight of all the other heavyweights that won world title fights over precisely the same 11½ year timeframe is 245¾lbs.

You could probably propose a reasonable argument that most of the world heavyweight champions competing in the sport up to and including the early nineties, if they were in their respective physical primes today, would probably be campaigning as 175lb-ers or cruiserweights.

This is based purely on statistics, if we assume that most fighters are capable of losing 15lbs or so to make their official ring-weights.

Of course, there are exceptions to all rules, which some people prefer to dwell on, but in terms of the general statistical trend, it’s categorically impossible to deny that heavyweights have been getting progressively taller and heavier as time passes by.

Holyfield weighed 225 near the end of his career. Holyfield was also 225 against Vitor Belfort in an exhibition. Holyfield weighed 215 against Lennox Lewis and 217 in the rematch. Usyk weighed 221 (heaviest of his career) against Joshua.

If the current rules of the WBC applied to Holyfield and Usyk, then they would have both been categorized as bridgerweights. Holyfield and Usyk, arguably the two best ever cruiserweights, would have been prevented from becoming heavyweights or have been forced to weigh above 224 which would be more than what they wanted to weigh or capable of weighing to be at their best.

The WBC made two bad decisions: making the bridgerweight limit 224 pounds and changing the cruiserweight limit to 190. What are boxers going to do that are best fighting between 200-215? I guess the only answer is to not fight for WBC titles.

Bridgerweight will erode the Heavyweight division and that could be
the beginning of the end for boxing. Usyk and Wilder show that a
boxer under 224 can compete at Heavyweight. Leave it at that.
Otherwise you'll have naturally small guys trying to beef up to 225 or
more for the bigger money. That can lead to more injury and
possible death. Also, there will be a loss of fans. Bad business.

If they split cruiser into a Light cruiser 190 and a Super cruiser 205/210 id be ok with it. That would perfectly bridge the gap all the way through the weight classes.

There is boxing, And there is heavyweight boxing... once you take the limmits off weight, people can carry a little bit of fat, there in slightly different shape to if they are in weighted divisions, still fit, but different goals of body compisition. Throw into that how much water weight people can cut these days and you have to look at the divisions a bit different.

225lb bridger weight is a joke. AJ could easily make 225, and he is one of the examples used of "massive Heavyweights" that caused the demand for the division.... Of good heavyweights basicaly all of them except Fury and Joyce could make bridger fairly easily, Not a walk in the park but they could, they wont because there is no money there, but they could.

bridger division is just a division for people that arnt good enough for heavyweight or cruiser weight and can see a weak area to target.

By making the heavyweight division 225+ I think we're going to eventually see a division where the heavyweights are so big and immobile that anyone 195+ could decision them.

This used to be talked about constantly in RING and KO magazines about how the heavyweight division was turning into a fat guy division with heavyweights 240+ pounds who could easily make 210-220.

There are so many historical precedents of men in the 185-210 pound area who made 240+ pound men look silly. One that comes to mind is the first Jack Sharkey-Primo Carnera fight:



Sharkey was 5'11.5" with a 72" reach and was 202 pounds for the contest. Carnera was nearly 6'6" and 261 pounds with a 85" reach. On the unofficial scorecard Sharkey won 12 rounds, lost 1 round, and 2 rounds were even.

People might dismiss that saying Carnera sucked, or something lame like that, but the fact remains Sharkey was a world class heavyweight and had no problem with the big boys as he previously defeated 6'3"-6'4" 220 pound George Godfrey when Sharkey was only 187 pounds. Godfrey weighed as much as 275 pounds for fights.

The "issue" or "problem" is that good/great little men cannot beat good/great big men. When the big guys are not only athletically gifted but have skills, it's extremely rare to see much smaller man be able to beat those kind of guys unless the bigger man is on the downside of his career.

That being said, a good/great little man will almost always best a big lump who isn't really all that good. One that comes to mind was Michael Moorer against 6'10" 275+ Mike White, when four fights previously Moorer was 175 pounds and the fight before this Moorer was 214 pounds.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 00:59There are so many historical precedents of men in the 185-210 pound area who made 240+ pound men look silly.

There are only 4 from 300+ world heavyweight title bouts listed in the BoxRec database, involving titles from the WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF, NYSAC and NBA, that involved a fighter (weighing 210lbs or less) defeating an opponent that weighed more than 240lbs, which was:

• Evander Holyfield vs. George Foreman
• Evander Holyfield vs. James ‘Buster’ Douglas
• Joe Frazier vs. Buster Mathis
• Max Baer vs. Primo Carnera

Therefore, from a statistical perspective, your claim is utter nonsense from the context of world heavyweight title bouts.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 00:59One that comes to mind is the first Jack Sharkey-Primo Carnera fight

In terms of the first Sharkey-Carnera contest, it wasn't a world title fight.

In the rematch, which was a world heavyweight title fight, taking place 20 months after their first bout, Primo Carnera avenged that loss by stopping Jack Sharkey in the sixth round.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 00:59That being said, a good/great little man will almost always best a big lump who isn't really all that good. One that comes to mind was Michael Moorer against 6'10" 275+ Mike White, when four fights previously Moorer was 175 pounds and the fight before this Moorer was 214 pounds.

Michael Moorer weighed 225lbs when he fought the 275lbs journeyman, Mike White, who entered the ring for that bout having failed to have won 11 bouts.

Are you seriously claiming that decent unbeaten in their physical prime small heavyweights (that had previously engaged in ten world title bouts) are capable of beating extraordinarily large journeymen with terrible resumes?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 03:14 Michael Moorer weighed 225lbs when he fought the 275lbs journeyman, Mike White, who entered the ring for that bout having failed to have won 11 bouts.

Are you seriously claiming that decent unbeaten in their physical prime small heavyweights (that had previously engaged in ten world title bouts) are capable of beating extraordinarily large journeymen with terrible resumes?

Mike White was 14-3 in his last 17 fights going into the Moorer fight. How does that translate into 'having failed to have won 11 bouts'?

The Gratest wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 09:48

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 03:14 Michael Moorer weighed 225lbs when he fought the 275lbs journeyman, Mike White, who entered the ring for that bout having failed to have won 11 bouts.

Are you seriously claiming that decent unbeaten in their physical prime small heavyweights (that had previously engaged in ten world title bouts) are capable of beating extraordinarily large journeymen with terrible resumes?

Mike White was 14-3 in his last 17 fights going into the Moorer fight. How does that translate into 'having failed to have won 11 bouts'?

You could also say 4-3 in his previous 7 bouts with 1 win coming over a debutant and another over a guy that was 1-2

tiny_acres wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 11:20

The Gratest wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 09:48

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 03:14 Michael Moorer weighed 225lbs when he fought the 275lbs journeyman, Mike White, who entered the ring for that bout having failed to have won 11 bouts.

Are you seriously claiming that decent unbeaten in their physical prime small heavyweights (that had previously engaged in ten world title bouts) are capable of beating extraordinarily large journeymen with terrible resumes?

Mike White was 14-3 in his last 17 fights going into the Moorer fight. How does that translate into 'having failed to have won 11 bouts'?

You could also say 4-3 in his previous 7 bouts with 1 win coming over a debutant and another over a guy that was 1-2

Still doesn't translate to 'having failed to have won 11 bouts' which is just an outright lie.

The Gratest wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 11:36

tiny_acres wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 11:20

The Gratest wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 09:48

Mike White was 14-3 in his last 17 fights going into the Moorer fight. How does that translate into 'having failed to have won 11 bouts'?

You could also say 4-3 in his previous 7 bouts with 1 win coming over a debutant and another over a guy that was 1-2

Still doesn't translate to 'having failed to have won 11 bouts' which is just an outright lie.

I think what he was referring to was that White had 10 losses and a draw at that point of fighting Moorer. As in failing to win 11 of his fights.

It don't matter to me just playing devil's advocate on this topic. I'm bored

There are only 4 from 300+ world heavyweight title bouts listed in the BoxRec database, involving titles from the WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF, NYSAC and NBA, that involved a fighter (weighing 210lbs or less) defeating an opponent that weighed more than 240lbs, which was:

• Evander Holyfield vs. George Foreman
• Evander Holyfield vs. James ‘Buster’ Douglas
• Joe Frazier vs. Buster Mathis
• Max Baer vs. Primo Carnera

Therefore, from a statistical perspective, your claim is utter nonsense from the context of world heavyweight title bouts.

I never said title bouts.

I was speaking about the heavyweight divisions history in general. There are countless matches in which physically smaller men defeated physically larger men. And it is still going on, probably one of the better examples in recent years is Michael Hunter Jr when he defeated 6'10" 280+ Ustinov.

You are insistent on title bouts because in your view those are the only matches that matter. Besides the fact that I pointed out that the higher up in class you go the harder it is to defeat opponents in general, especially if they are large opponents strictly because they are not only athletically gifted but possess great skills.

Championship bouts are also a smaller data set to work with therefore it doesn't give a complete picture therefore it's easy to make some agenda driven argument that there needs to be more weight classes when the truth is historically speaking being big has been a disadvantage or being big has its limitations.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 15:42

There are only 4 from 300+ world heavyweight title bouts listed in the BoxRec database, involving titles from the WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF, NYSAC and NBA, that involved a fighter (weighing 210lbs or less) defeating an opponent that weighed more than 240lbs, which was:

• Evander Holyfield vs. George Foreman
• Evander Holyfield vs. James ‘Buster’ Douglas
• Joe Frazier vs. Buster Mathis
• Max Baer vs. Primo Carnera

Therefore, from a statistical perspective, your claim is utter nonsense from the context of world heavyweight title bouts.

I never said title bouts.

I was speaking about the heavyweight divisions history in general. There are countless matches in which physically smaller men defeated physically larger men. And it is still going on, probably one of the better examples in recent years is Michael Hunter Jr when he defeated 6'10" 280+ Ustinov.

You are insistent on title bouts because in your view those are the only matches that matter. Besides the fact that I pointed out that the higher up in class you go the harder it is to defeat opponents in general, especially if they are large opponents strictly because they are not only athletically gifted but possess great skills.

Championship bouts are also a smaller data set to work with therefore it doesn't give a complete picture therefore it's easy to make some agenda driven argument that there needs to be more weight classes when the truth is historically speaking being big has been a disadvantage or being big has its limitations.

The topic of this thread is about the new title for the bridgerweight division, which inevitably affects the legacy of the heavyweight title.

If you want to discuss ‘David vs. Goliath’ style non-world title bouts between a good small fighter beating a terrible large journeyman, then create a different thread.

Statistically-speaking, in terms of world heavyweight title bouts, it’s exceptionally rare for small heavyweights to defeat their much larger counterparts (i.e. where the weight difference is at least 30lbs).

For sure, there are exceptions, which I’ve already listed, but they don’t undermine the general rule.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 15:35

The Gratest wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 11:36

tiny_acres wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 11:20

You could also say 4-3 in his previous 7 bouts with 1 win coming over a debutant and another over a guy that was 1-2

Still doesn't translate to 'having failed to have won 11 bouts' which is just an outright lie.

I think what he was referring to was that White had 10 losses and a draw at that point of fighting Moorer. As in failing to win 11 of his fights.

It don't matter to me just playing devil's advocate on this topic. I'm bored

No worries
I'll sit back and let him and Henry have a wank off now.

If you want to discuss ‘David vs. Goliath’ style non-world title bouts between a good small fighter beating a terrible large journeyman, then create a different thread.

But it isn't just "terrible" large "journeyman" types. There has been plenty of decent big men, whether they be trialhorses or gatekeepers or fringe contenders, who were bested by good/great small heavyweights.

Jack O'Halloran (6'6" & career high of 259) was certainly a gatekeeper or fringe contender. Buddy Baer (6'7" & career high of 256) was a world title challenger. Abe Simon (6'4" & career high of 267) was a world title challenger. Etc etc etc --- they were all big men with decent/good skills who were defeated by physically inferior opponents.

You seem to act as though any smaller man defeating a bigger man simply had to be because the big man was horrible or limited. It's not always the case --- I would say historically you were more likely to see the more smaller, athletic, nimble and quick men dispatch of larger men than the reverse proposition.

Large heavyweights whose size is in proportion to their athleticism and abilities has been more of a modern (last thirty years) phenomenon, but one can also make the case that the boxers of today are not as "hard" or "tough" as their predecessors largely because their work ethic is nowhere close to men of earlier eras--- which is why one can make an argument that you don't see smaller heavyweights succeed as much as you did in the past.

As big a critic I am of Canelo, the man is living proof that hard work and a high ring IQ can overcome physical disparities--- the man has the ability to become an alphabet cruiserweight champion when he started off under 147 pounds.

Anyways, I'm still not convinced the need of another weight division. Back in the 1930s when Primo Carnera was around there was talk of creating a "dreadnaught" division for mammoth sized heavyweights such as himself--- but when he was annihilated by Max Baer, who was 60 pounds lighter than Carnera, that nonsense went out the window.

In the 1970s ridiculous talk once again resurfaced because of people like Buster Mathis, and for a brief time he held the "super heavyweight" title--- which nobody bought into because after all he had already been defeated by standard-sized heavyweights.

Now here we are arguing that divisions need to be recalibrated because 200-220 pound men supposedly can't defeat 240+ pound men, when I would argue that there are plenty of people as low as 190 pounds could defeat such individuals.

It's nothing more than a meaningless division created strictly so there can be more sanctioning fees for belts that are unnecessary. Nothing but a money racket. I have had many disagreements with this website over the years for different issues but I applaud BoxRec for not recognizing this division or not recognizing matches held at bridgerweight.

Usyk made all the bw argumemts worthless.

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 19:43 Usyk made all the bw argumemts worthless.

So did wilder... was a cruiserweight at his prime winning heavyweight titles and he cant box.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 17:07There has been plenty of decent big men, whether they be trialhorses or gatekeepers or fringe contenders, who were bested by good/great small heavyweights.

I don’t see the point of this comment because “trial horses” or “gatekeepers” usually don’t win world titles.

In fact, the vast majority lose regularly and also never receive an opportunity to challenge for the world title during their entire careers.

But the topic of this thread is essentially to ascertain our thoughts about the WBC bridgerweight world title, with most people evaluating it in the context of its impact over the legacy of the heavyweight title.

Like I said before, if you want to discuss ‘David vs. Goliath’ style non-world title bouts between a good or a great small fighter beating a terrible or substandard large journeyman, then create a different thread.

Because promoters usually match their decent small heavyweight fighters against much larger opponents that are considered “trial horses” or “gatekeepers”, in order to make them look good, with a view to scoring a spectacular highlight-reel KO over their much bigger foe.

I don’t think that anyone from this forum believes it’s categorically impossible for a small fighter to beat a much larger opponent, especially if the former has much more pugilistic talent and athleticism than the latter.

But remember what you originally claimed:

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑29 Mar 2022, 00:59There are so many historical precedents of men in the 185-210 pound area who made 240+ pound men look silly.

There are only 4 from 300+ world heavyweight title bouts listed in the BoxRec database, involving titles from the WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF, NYSAC and NBA, that involved a fighter (weighing 210lbs or less) defeating an opponent that weighed more than 240lbs, which was:

• Evander Holyfield vs. George Foreman
• Evander Holyfield vs. James ‘Buster’ Douglas
• Joe Frazier vs. Buster Mathis
• Max Baer vs. Primo Carnera

Therefore, from a statistical perspective, your claim is utter nonsense from the context of world heavyweight title bouts.

There are basically seven levels in boxing:

First Tiersman
Second Tiersman
Journeyman
Trialhorse
Gatekeeper
Contender
Champion

There are countless examples of smaller men beating larger men in levels 1 through 6, although it must be stated that the higher the skillset goes the less often you see it.

From my perspective when the likes of Fury, Joshua and Wilder are gone from the division you are going to see a lot of heavyweights 6'3" and 220 pounds start taking over the division.

No offense to the likes of Joyce, Helenius, etc but they are simply notches below in terms of quality and skills in comparison to the three previously named--- so we will start to see the smaller heavyweights start to take over little bit by little bit.

Height, more so than weight, has been a factor in the heavyweight division these days than weight (imho). Think about it. Would Fury and Wilder (6'9" & 6'7") have been anywhere near as dominant as they were if they were 6'3" with a much smaller reach? I doubt it.

Many of the championship level matches, the opponent that was taller and had a greater reach was the one that won--- and furthermore, just how many 240+ heavyweights even managed to become LINEAL champions? Very few. Alphabet title holders, no offense, are often seen as second bananas. Just contenders with ornaments.

Carnera
Foreman
Briggs
Bowe
Lewis
W. Klitschko
Fury

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

How many lineal champions have there been? 38 (44, but Ali was 3x lineal and Holyfield 2x lineal and Patterson 2x lineal). You do the percentage values, but clearly history is not really on your side in terms of the lineal title.

Throw in the alphabet titles, the number increases but not as much as you would think:

WBA

Tate
Valuev
Browne
Joshua
A. Ruiz

WBC

V. Klitschko
Peter
Stiverne

WBO

Joshua
A. Ruiz

IBF

Martin
Joshua
A. Ruiz

Andy Ruiz, Anthony Joshua, Charles Martin, Bermane Stiverne, Samuel Peter, Vitali Klitschko, Lucas Browne, John Tate and Nicolai Valuev. That basically is the whole of your argument that we need another weight class because of those individuals.

Not a very strong argument as far as I can see.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑30 Mar 2022, 13:08From my perspective when the likes of Fury, Joshua and Wilder are gone from the division you are going to see a lot of heavyweights 6'3" and 220 pounds start taking over the division.

No offense to the likes of Joyce, Helenius, etc but they are simply notches below in terms of quality and skills in comparison to the three previously named--- so we will start to see the smaller heavyweights start to take over little bit by little bit.

Height, more so than weight, has been a factor in the heavyweight division these days than weight (imho). Think about it. Would Fury and Wilder (6'9" & 6'7") have been anywhere near as dominant as they were if they were 6'3" with a much smaller reach? I doubt it.

Many of the championship level matches, the opponent that was taller and had a greater reach was the one that won--- and furthermore, just how many 240+ heavyweights even managed to become LINEAL champions? Very few.

Andy Ruiz, Anthony Joshua, Charles Martin, Bermane Stiverne, Samuel Peter, Vitali Klitschko, Lucas Browne, John Tate and Nicolai Valuev. That basically is the whole of your argument that we need another weight class because of those individuals.

Not a very strong argument as far as I can see.

I’m not going to argue with you; instead, I’m just going to give you the facts.

Here's a list of all the fighters that have participated in world heavyweight titles since 1993 weighing at least 237lbs:

• Tyson Fury
• Trevor Bryan
• Anthony Joshua
• Andy Ruiz
• Joseph Parker
• Lucas Browne
• Charles Martin
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Wladimir Klitschko
• Bermane Stiverne
• Vitali Klitschko
• Nikolai Valuev
• Samuel Peter
• Oleg Maskaev
• Shannon Briggs
• Siarhei Liakhovich
• Hasim Rahman
• John Ruiz
• Lennox Lewis
• Henry Akinwande
• Axel Schulz
• Frank Bruno
• Riddick Bowe
• George Foreman
• Deontay Wilder
• Kubrat Pulev
• Dominic Breazeale
• Luis Ortiz
• Aleksandr Ustinov
• Razvan Cojanu
• Gerald Washington
• Eric Molina
• Chris Arreola
• Francesco Pianeta
• Alex Leapai
• Mariusz Wach
• Mahmoud Charr
• Tony Thompson
• Dereck Chisora
• Odlanier Solis
• Audley Harrison
• Kevin Johnson
• Matt Skelton
• Ray Austin
• Jameel McCline
• Okello Peter
• Owen Beck
• James Toney
• Andrew Golota
• Danny Williams
• Kirk Johnson
• Frans Botha
• Derrick Jefferson
• David Tua
• Michael Grant
• Tony Tucker
• Oliver McCall
• Jorge Luis Gonzalez
• Michael Dokes

There have been 168 world heavyweight title bouts since 1993, with the average weight of the winner being 239¼lbs and the average for the loser being 237¼lbs.

More than 77% of all the 168 world heavyweight title bouts since 1993 involved at least one competitor weighing 237lbs or more.

For the record, June 1993 was when it became extremely rare for the victors of world heavyweight title bouts to weigh 220lbs or less.

Anyway, in case you don’t believe these aggregated numbers I’ve just supplied, I’ll also provide a detailed breakdown of all the world heavyweight title bouts that have taken place since 1993:

• 09/10/2021: Tyson Fury (277lbs) vs. Deontay Wilder (238lbs)
• 25/09/2021: Oleksandr Usyk (221.25lbs) vs. Anthony Joshua (240lbs)
• 29/01/2021: Trevor Bryan (267.5lbs) vs. Bermane Stiverne (267.25lbs)
• 12/12/2020: Anthony Joshua (240.75lbs) vs. Kubrat Pulev (239.75lbs)
• 22/02/2020: Tyson Fury (273lbs) vs. Deontay Wilder (231lbs)
• 07/12/2019: Anthony Joshua (237lbs) vs. Andy Ruiz (283.5lbs)
• 23/11/2019: Deontay Wilder (219.5lbs) vs. Luis Ortiz (236.5lbs)
• 01/06/2019: Andy Ruiz (268lbs) vs. Anthony Joshua (247.75lbs)
• 18/05/2019: Deontay Wilder (223.25lbs) vs. Dominic Breazeale (255.25lbs)
• 01/12/2018: Deontay Wilder (212.5lbs) vs. Tyson Fury (256.5lbs)
• 22/09/2018: Anthony Joshua (245.25lbs) vs. Alexander Povetkin (222lbs)
• 31/03/2018: Anthony Joshua (242lbs) vs. Joseph Parker (236.5lbs)
• 03/03/2018: Deontay Wilder (214.75lbs) vs. Luis Ortiz (241.25lbs)
• 25/11/2017: Mahmoud Charr (230lbs) vs. Aleksandr Ustinov (279lbs)
• 04/11/2017: Deontay Wilder (220.75lbs) vs. Bermane Stiverne (254.75lbs)
• 28/10/2017: Anthony Joshua (254lbs) vs. Carlos Takam (235.5lbs)
• 23/09/2017: Joseph Parker (245lbs) vs. Hughie Fury (234lbs)
• 06/05/2017: Joseph Parker (245.75lbs) vs. Razvan Cojanu (274.75lbs)
• 29/04/2017: Anthony Joshua (250lbs) vs. Wladimir Klitschko (240.25lbs)
• 25/02/2017: Deontay Wilder (222lbs) vs. Gerald Washington (239lbs)
• 10/12/2016: Anthony Joshua (249lbs) vs. Eric Molina (237.5lbs)
• 10/12/2016: Joseph Parker (246.75lbs) vs. Andy Ruiz (255.75lbs)
• 16/07/2016: Deontay Wilder (226.25lbs) vs. Chris Arreola (246.25lbs)
• 25/06/2016: Anthony Joshua (243lbs) vs. Dominic Breazeale (255lbs)
• 09/04/2016: Anthony Joshua (244lbs) vs. Charles Martin (245lbs)
• 05/03/2016: Lucas Browne (250.75lbs) vs. Ruslan Chagaev (248.5lbs)
• 16/01/2016: Charles Martin (249.5lbs) vs. Vyacheslav Glazkov (218lbs)
• 16/01/2016: Deontay Wilder (228.75lbs) vs. Artur Szpilka (233.25lbs)
• 28/11/2015: Tyson Fury (247lbs) vs. Wladimir Klitschko (245.75lbs)
• 26/09/2015: Deontay Wilder (228.75lbs) vs. Johann Duhaupas (236lbs)
• 11/07/2015: Ruslan Chagaev (246lbs) vs. Francesco Pianeta (242.5lbs)
• 13/06/2015: Deontay Wilder (229lbs) vs. Eric Molina (239.25lbs)
• 25/04/2015: Wladimir Klitschko (241.5lbs) vs. Bryant Jennings (226.75lbs)
• 17/01/2015: Deontay Wilder (219lbs) vs. Bermane Stiverne (239lbs)
• 15/11/2014: Wladimir Klitschko (245.75lbs) vs. Kubrat Pulev (247lbs)
• 06/07/2014: Ruslan Chagaev (246.25lbs) vs. Fres Oquendo (224.75lbs)
• 10/05/2014: Bermane Stiverne (239.5lbs) vs. Chris Arreola (239lbs)
• 26/04/2014: Wladimir Klitschko (247.25lbs) vs. Alex Leapai (248lbs)
• 05/10/2013: Wladimir Klitschko (241.75lbs) vs. Alexander Povetkin (225.75lbs)
• 17/05/2013: Alexander Povetkin (228.5lbs) vs. Andrzej Wawrzyk (232.5lbs)
• 04/05/2013: Wladimir Klitschko (249lbs) vs. Francesco Pianeta (240.25lbs)
• 10/11/2012: Wladimir Klitschko (247lbs) vs. Mariusz Wach (251lbs)
• 29/09/2012: Alexander Povetkin (229lbs) vs. Hasim Rahman (256.5lbs)
• 08/09/2012: Vitali Klitschko (248lbs) vs. Mahmoud Charr (241.5lbs)
• 07/07/2012: Wladimir Klitschko (249lbs) vs. Tony Thompson (244.75lbs)
• 03/03/2012: Wladimir Klitschko (244.75lbs) vs. Jean Marc Mormeck (216lbs)
• 25/02/2012: Alexander Povetkin (229.25lbs) vs. Marco Huck (209.5lbs)
• 18/02/2012: Vitali Klitschko (243.5lbs) vs. Dereck Chisora (241.25lbs)
• 03/12/2011: Alexander Povetkin (227.75lbs) vs. Cedric Boswell (228.75lbs)
• 10/09/2011: Vitali Klitschko (243lbs) vs. Tomasz Adamek (216lbs)
• 27/08/2011: Alexander Povetkin (231.5lbs) vs. Ruslan Chagaev (231.5lbs)
• 02/07/2011: Wladimir Klitschko (242.5lbs) vs. David Haye (210.5lbs)
• 19/03/2011: Vitali Klitschko (247.25lbs) vs. Odlanier Solis (246.75lbs)
• 13/11/2010: David Haye (210.5lbs) vs. Audley Harrison (253.5lbs)
• 16/10/2010: Vitali Klitschko (251.25lbs) vs. Shannon Briggs (262.25lbs)
• 11/09/2010: Wladimir Klitschko (247lbs) vs. Samuel Peter (241.5lbs)
• 29/05/2010: Vitali Klitschko (247lbs) vs. Albert Sosnowski (224.5lbs)
• 03/04/2010: David Haye (222lbs) vs. John Ruiz (231lbs)
• 20/03/2010: Wladimir Klitschko (244.75lbs) vs. Eddie Chambers (209.5lbs)
• 12/12/2009: Vitali Klitschko (247lbs) vs. Kevin Johnson (242.5lbs)
• 07/11/2009: David Haye (217lbs) vs. Nikolai Valuev (316lbs)
• 26/09/2009: Vitali Klitschko (252lbs) vs. Chris Arreola (251lbs)
• 20/06/2009: Wladimir Klitschko (240.25lbs) vs. Ruslan Chagaev (224.75lbs)
• 21/03/2009: Vitali Klitschko (249lbs) vs. Juan Carlos Gomez (230.5lbs)
• 07/02/2009: Ruslan Chagaev (227lbs) vs. Carl Davis Drumond (229lbs)
• 20/12/2008: Nikolai Valuev (310.75lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (214.25lbs)
• 13/12/2008: Wladimir Klitschko (244.75lbs) vs. Hasim Rahman (253.5lbs)
• 11/10/2008: Vitali Klitschko (247lbs) vs. Samuel Peter (253.5lbs)
• 30/08/2008: Nikolai Valuev (317.75lbs) vs. John Ruiz (239lbs)
• 12/07/2008: Wladimir Klitschko (241lbs) vs. Tony Thompson (247.5lbs)
• 08/03/2008: Samuel Peter (250.75lbs) vs. Oleg Maskaev (243lbs)
• 23/02/2008: Wladimir Klitschko (238lbs) vs. Sultan Ibragimov (219lbs)
• 19/01/2008: Ruslan Chagaev (229.25lbs) vs. Matt Skelton (254.75lbs)
• 13/10/2007: Sultan Ibragimov (219lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (211.5lbs)
• 07/07/2007: Wladimir Klitschko (243.5lbs) vs. Lamon Brewster (228.25lbs)
• 02/06/2007: Sultan Ibragimov (221lbs) vs. Shannon Briggs (273lbs)
• 14/04/2007: Ruslan Chagaev (228.25lbs) vs. Nikolai Valuev (319lbs)
• 10/03/2007: Wladimir Klitschko (246.5lbs) vs. Ray Austin (247lbs)
• 20/01/2007: Nikolai Valuev (322.25lbs) vs. Jameel McCline (268.25lbs)
• 10/12/2006: Oleg Maskaev (240lbs) vs. Okello Peter (254.5lbs)
• 11/11/2006: Wladimir Klitschko (241lbs) vs. Calvin Brock (224.5lbs)
• 04/11/2006: Shannon Briggs (268lbs) vs. Siarhei Liakhovich (238lbs)
• 07/10/2006: Nikolai Valuev (328lbs) vs. Monte Barrett (222.5lbs)
• 12/08/2006: Oleg Maskaev (238lbs) vs. Hasim Rahman (235lbs)
• 03/06/2006: Nikolai Valuev (320.75lbs) vs. Owen Beck (242.5lbs)
• 22/04/2006: Wladimir Klitschko (241lbs) vs. Chris Byrd (213.5lbs)
• 01/04/2006: Siarhei Liakhovich (238.5lbs) vs. Lamon Brewster (232lbs)
• 18/03/2006: Hasim Rahman (238lbs) vs. James Toney (237lbs)
• 17/12/2005: Nikolai Valuev (324lbs) vs. John Ruiz (237.75lbs)
• 01/10/2005: Chris Byrd (213lbs) vs. DaVarryl Williamson (225lbs)
• 28/09/2005: Lamon Brewster (228.25lbs) vs. Luan Krasniqi (224.75lbs)
• 21/05/2005: Lamon Brewster (224lbs) vs. Andrew Golota (248lbs)
• 11/12/2004: Vitali Klitschko (250lbs) vs. Danny Williams (270lbs)
• 13/11/2004: John Ruiz (239lbs) vs. Andrew Golota (238lbs)
• 13/11/2004: Chris Byrd (214lbs) vs. Jameel McCline (270lbs)
• 04/09/2004: Lamon Brewster (227lbs) vs. Kali Meehan (236lbs)
• 24/04/2004: Vitali Klitschko (245lbs) vs. Corrie Sanders (235lbs)
• 17/04/2004: John Ruiz (240lbs) vs. Fres Oquendo (225.5lbs)
• 17/04/2004: Chris Byrd (210.5lbs) vs. Andrew Golota (237.5lbs)
• 10/04/2004: Lamon Brewster (226lbs) vs. Wladimir Klitschko (243lbs)
• 20/09/2003: Chris Byrd (211.5lbs) vs. Fres Oquendo (224lbs)
• 21/06/2003: Lennox Lewis (256.5lbs) vs. Vitali Klitschko (248lbs)
• 08/03/2003: Corrie Sanders (225lbs) vs. Wladimir Klitschko (242.5lbs)
• 01/03/2003: Roy Jones Jr (193lbs) vs. John Ruiz (226lbs)
• 14/12/2002: Chris Byrd (214lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (220lbs)
• 07/12/2002: Wladimir Klitschko (241lbs) vs. Jameel McCline (263lbs)
• 27/07/2002: John Ruiz (233lbs) vs. Kirk Johnson (238lbs)
• 29/06/2002: Wladimir Klitschko (243lbs) vs. Ray Mercer (228lbs)
• 08/06/2002: Lennox Lewis (249.25lbs) vs. Mike Tyson (234lbs)
• 16/03/2002: Wladimir Klitschko (241.75lbs) vs. Frans Botha (241.5lbs)
• 15/12/2001: John Ruiz (232lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (219lbs)
• 17/11/2001: Lennox Lewis (246.5lbs) vs. Hasim Rahman (236lbs)
• 04/08/2001: Wladimir Klitschko (241lbs) vs. Charles Shufford (234lbs)
• 22/04/2001: Hasim Rahman (238lbs) vs. Lennox Lewis (253.5lbs)
• 24/03/2001: Wladimir Klitschko (246lbs) vs. Derrick Jefferson (260.25lbs)
• 03/03/2001: John Ruiz (227lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (217lbs)
• 11/11/2000: Lennox Lewis (249lbs) vs. David Tua (245lbs)
• 14/10/2000: Wladimir Klitschko (238lbs) vs. Chris Byrd (213.5lbs)
• 12/08/2000: Evander Holyfield (221lbs) vs. John Ruiz (224lbs)
• 15/07/2000: Lennox Lewis (250lbs) vs. Frans Botha (237lbs)
• 29/04/2000: Lennox Lewis (247lbs) vs. Michael Grant (250lbs)
• 01/04/2000: Chris Byrd (210.75lbs) vs. Vitali Klitschko (244.25lbs)
• 11/12/1999: Vitali Klitschko (244.75lbs) vs. Obed Sullivan (227.75lbs)
• 13/11/1999: Lennox Lewis (242lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (217lbs)
• 09/10/1999: Vitali Klitschko (246lbs) vs. Ed Mahone (229.25lbs)
• 26/06/1999: Vitali Klitschko (245.75lbs) vs. Herbie Hide (221lbs)
• 13/03/1999: Lennox Lewis (245lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (215lbs)
• 26/09/1998: Herbie Hide (220lbs) vs. Willi Fischer (231lbs)
• 26/09/1998: Lennox Lewis (243lbs) vs. Zeljko Mavrovic (214.25lbs)
• 19/09/1998: Evander Holyfield (217lbs) vs. Vaughn Bean (231lbs)
• 18/04/1998: Herbie Hide (219lbs) vs. Damon Reed (206lbs)
• 28/03/1998: Lennox Lewis (243lbs) vs. Shannon Briggs (228lbs)
• 08/11/1997: Evander Holyfield (214lbs) vs. Michael Moorer (223lbs)
• 04/10/1997: Lennox Lewis (244lbs) vs. Andrew Golota (244lbs)
• 12/07/1997: Lennox Lewis (242lbs) vs. Henry Akinwande (237.5lbs)
• 28/06/1997: Evander Holyfield (218lbs) vs. Mike Tyson (218lbs)
• 28/06/1997: Herbie Hide (214.75lbs) vs. Tony Tucker (243.25lbs)
• 29/03/1997: Michael Moorer (212lbs) vs. Vaughn Bean (212lbs)
• 07/02/1997: Lennox Lewis (251lbs) vs. Oliver McCall (237lbs)
• 11/01/1997: Henry Akinwande (232.5lbs) vs. Scott Welch (229lbs)
• 09/11/1996: Evander Holyfield (215lbs) vs. Mike Tyson (222lbs)
• 09/11/1996: Henry Akinwande (238lbs) vs. Alexander Zolkin (235lbs)
• 09/11/1996: Michael Moorer (219lbs) vs. Frans Botha (224lbs)
• 07/09/1996: Mike Tyson (219lbs) vs. Bruce Seldon (229lbs)
• 29/06/1996: Henry Akinwande (232lbs) vs. Jeremy Williams (216.5lbs)
• 22/06/1996: Michael Moorer (222.25lbs) vs. Axel Schulz (222.75lbs)
• 16/03/1996: Mike Tyson (220lbs) vs. Frank Bruno (247lbs)
• 09/12/1995: Axel Schulz (237lbs) vs. Frans Botha (222lbs)
• 02/09/1995: Frank Bruno (247.75lbs) vs. Oliver McCall (234.75lbs)
• 19/08/1995: Bruce Seldon (234lbs) vs. Joe Hipp (233lbs)
• 17/06/1995: Riddick Bowe (243lbs) vs. Jorge Luis Gonzalez (237lbs)
• 22/04/1995: George Foreman (256lbs) vs. Axel Schulz (221lbs)
• 08/04/1995: Bruce Seldon (236lbs) vs. Tony Tucker (243lbs)
• 08/04/1995: Oliver McCall (231lbs) vs. Larry Holmes (236lbs)
• 11/03/1995: Riddick Bowe (241lbs) vs. Herbie Hide (214lbs)
• 05/11/1994: George Foreman (250lbs) vs. Michael Moorer (222lbs)
• 24/09/1994: Oliver McCall (231.25lbs) vs. Lennox Lewis (238lbs)
• 06/05/1994: Lennox Lewis (235lbs) vs. Phil Jackson (218lbs)
• 22/04/1994: Michael Moorer (214lbs) vs. Evander Holyfield (214lbs)
• 19/03/1994: Herbie Hide (216lbs) vs. Michael Bentt (230lbs)
• 06/11/1993: Evander Holyfield (217lbs) vs. Riddick Bowe (246lbs)
• 29/10/1993: Michael Bentt (226lbs) vs. Tommy Morrison (226.75lbs)
• 01/10/1993: Lennox Lewis (229lbs) vs. Frank Bruno (238lbs)
• 30/08/1993: Tommy Morrison (226lbs) vs. Tim Tomashek (205lbs)
• 07/06/1993: Tommy Morrison (226lbs) vs. George Foreman (256lbs)
• 22/05/1993: Riddick Bowe (244lbs) vs. Jesse Ferguson (224lbs)
• 08/05/1993: Lennox Lewis (235lbs) vs. Tony Tucker (235lbs)
• 06/02/1993: Riddick Bowe (243lbs) vs. Michael Dokes (244lbs)

240 and up was the argument. Now you're including people under 240 to strengthen your argument. Tisk, tisk, tisk.

Furthermore, I think most people can agree that even those 240 types can make 220 if they actually worked their butts off to be in peak shape. They choose not to for whatever reason.

I think most people would point out that Wilder, for example, performed better under 220 than he ever did above 220. I still consider him to be a large heavyweight on the basis of his height, but weight wise it's quite clear that he was better when he was lighter.

Matter of fact most of the people you listed performed better when they were lighter than when they were heavier. As big a fan as I am of Tyson Fury it's without question or doubt that he was a better all around athletic boxer when he was in the 245-255 range and that version was far more harder to beat than the current version who is more immobile.

Even your own data set, if we do include people in the 230's, is only a 2 lb difference on average between winners and losers. So marginal in fact that I think it undermines your entire argument. Now had the disparity been 5 lb or even 10 lb it might have given pause, but 2 lbs?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑30 Mar 2022, 15:40 240 and up was the argument. Now you're including people under 240 to strengthen your argument. Tisk, tisk, tisk.

Are you seriously claiming that 3lbs renders my argument as being invalid?

I introduced a 3lbs tolerance (as in, fighters roughly weighing 240lbs), which only represents 1.25% of the 240lbs weight.

What about the average weights I cited for the victors and losers of all the world heavyweight title bouts since 1993?

You claimed that the heavyweight division in the near future will be dominated by fighters weighing 220lbs or less.

That seems incredibly unrealistic.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑30 Mar 2022, 15:40Even your own data set, if we do include people in the 230's, is only a 2 lb difference on average between winners and losers. So marginal in fact that I think it undermines your entire argument. Now had the disparity been 5 lb or even 10 lb it might have given pause, but 2 lbs?

I’ve never expressed an opinion on bouts between fighters about the same weight (i.e. roughly weighing 240lbs).

You’re welcome to quote my precise words if you seriously believe otherwise.

Anyway, those bouts are well outside the scope of your ‘David vs. Goliath’ argument.

I would argue that there are more factors in play since 1993 as to why it seems people cannot get over physical disparities than just some blanket statement that it's getting harder for people to beat the big men because the big men are simply too big.

One would be the fact that for a long time the amateur system was a disaster--- for many years people begged and pleaded that the scoring system would return back to the way it was in the sixties and seventies. A shoddy amateur system produced quite a number of heavyweights (as well as lower weight) boxers who simply were inadequate pro's. That's slowly but surely beginning to change since the amateur system has went back to the scoring system of earlier times.

Second, a great deal of legislative changes and regulations (imho) weakened the sport as a whole where (in part) "mom and pop" promotions shut down, therefore less competitive and developmental matches were being made to further strengthen the abilities of boxers. The "Ali Act" (federal ID's) was also something of a detriment to the business by having less matches than previously.

Third, the age old problem of managers and promoter's cherry picking opponents further damaging the development of boxers. That'll never go away unfortunately but it does play in why some people cannot get over the hump.

Fourth, inadequate training and preparation. This is probably the biggest factor of them all. At the end of the day it does fall on the shoulders of the boxer who loses. If you are 6'0" and 200 pounds facing someone 6'5"+ and 240+ and you lose, it can be argued that you simply did not train and prepare to the best of your ability.

Mind you, I've already stated I am a huge fan of Tyson Fury but even I can say that the toughest opponent he would ever face would be Usyk on the basis of the man's high skill level and capabilities (hand and foot speed) combined with old school conditioning. Usyk has already demonstrated that you can be in the 220's or lower and beat rather sizeable world class big men.

Most of the men who lost those fights that you mentioned, retrospectively, were all pretty average or slightly above average tactically. You seem to ignore the skillset factor, and focus completely on weight differentials--- which even with your own data was only a difference of 2 lb between winners and losers.

So we agree to disagree I find the whole thing to be completely unnecessary to have a new weight class. Just another money making scheme by forcing people into pay sanctioning fees for trinkets that nobody really cares about.

And I stand firm I do think it will be smaller more agile heavyweights in the years to come. A lot of the newcomers on the amateur and novice professional scene are 6'0"-6'3" and 200-230 pounds. That's more than plenty size to beat anybody with.

I've got Henry ahead on points here due to his vastly superior all round knowledge on the subject. He's cutting a swathe through EO's habitual cherry picking tactic.