BoxRec

Slightly off topic but is anyone else here planning on dropping Wilder even if he beats Helenius?

joshj909 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 05:30 Slightly off topic but is anyone else here planning on dropping Wilder even if he beats Helenius?

I'd have him remain. Helenius fought his way into our top 15 with 2 good wins back to back against Kownacki.

If he wins, i wont vote to drop him.. But I feel a few will.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 05:36

joshj909 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 05:30 Slightly off topic but is anyone else here planning on dropping Wilder even if he beats Helenius?

I'd have him remain. Helenius fought his way into our top 15 with 2 good wins back to back against Kownacki.

If he wins, i wont vote to drop him.. But I feel a few will.

For me he'd probably drop to 7. Helenius would be his second best win with Ortiz being his first. I don't think that's enough to put him above Joyce, Parker, Whyte or Ruiz. They all have better or more proven wins. A win over Ortiz is not even necessarily better than Chisora's wins over Pulev and Takam. In my view, it's only the fact that Chisora also holds losses to Pulev, Kabayel and Helenius (despite that one being disputed) that definitely stop him from being above Wilder at this stage.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 05:36

joshj909 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 05:30 Slightly off topic but is anyone else here planning on dropping Wilder even if he beats Helenius?

I'd have him remain. Helenius fought his way into our top 15 with 2 good wins back to back against Kownacki.

If he wins, i wont vote to drop him.. But I feel a few will.

It's hard to think about dropping Wilder. Regardless of his last two fights being very bad losses, he looked especially dangerous in the last one, and the drop off in the top ten after 5 or so has been such a sharp one that you still couldn't think about putting the likes of Parker, Ruiz, Whyte, Chisora or senile Grandad Ortiz over him. Joyce's win this weekend is the first actual proper legit impressive win by one 'non-big-four' top ten guy over another we've had for as long as I can remember, so yeah I can see why people would rank him very high. But I'm going to be patient. Let's see how the rest of the year pans out.

If Wilder looks vulnerable in the Helenius fight, like he gets dropped and it goes to points or something, then yeah I'll put him down maybe below Joyce. But otherwise, if he's still something approaching the Wilder of old, can see any of the other lower top ten guys beating him? I think he flattens them all. Helenius is a decent comeback opponent that he should look OK against.

Chisora has announced his retirement, so we should have an extra free spot.

CMCanavessi wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 16:16 Chisora has announced his retirement, so we should have an extra free spot.

When was this? I must have missed it

Someone has voted for

‘ ————’

On the poll..

Change it if you know who you are.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 16:42

CMCanavessi wrote: ↑26 Sep 2022, 16:16 Chisora has announced his retirement, so we should have an extra free spot.

When was this? I must have missed it

At the Parker Joyce fight.
There was a lot of bollocks talked between Del Boy and Tyson Fury.
I'm hoping he does retire, but we will have to wait and see. Maybe they were trying for the fight no one wants - Fury Chisora 3

This is TBRB's explaination.. They moved him just under Usyk..

Juggernaut Joe Joyce (#5) stops Joseph Parker (#4) with a left hook after a performance that had many observers wondering if Joyce’s jaw bone was surgically replaced with a steel beam. A clear majority voted that Joyce should advance from #5 to #1 at Heavyweight as a result of his big win over a never-before-stopped contender. Three of the four at the top have losing records over the past two years, after all. There was some strong dissent among members who believe that he would be better suited for #3 or #4 at this point; those losses at the top, they argued, were to top-level guys.

As it is, the Juggernaut has arrived. He is now a frightening prospect for every heavyweight this side of former champ Tyson Fury. Usyk’s crown is wobbling.

What a load of bollocks.

One good win and one medium good win and they think Joyce is that high up?

KiwiRider wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:42 What a load of bollocks.

One good win and one medium good win and they think Joyce is that high up?

They dropped Parker below Ortiz too.. Technically, many had Ortiz actually beating Ruiz.

Wilder, Joshua and Whyte are all on losing records the past few years..
A few members objected and said 3-4 would be more suited as the above guys losses were high profile matches.

TBF, Joyce has the best win from the above guys if you look at the last year. Wilder and AJ have both lost twice in a row.

KiwiRider wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:42 What a load of bollocks.

One good win and one medium good win and they think Joyce is that high up?

Remember when AJ facing Parker was called the "easy" option over Wilder...

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:33 This is TBRB's explaination.. They moved him just under Usyk..

Juggernaut Joe Joyce (#5) stops Joseph Parker (#4) with a left hook after a performance that had many observers wondering if Joyce’s jaw bone was surgically replaced with a steel beam. A clear majority voted that Joyce should advance from #5 to #1 at Heavyweight as a result of his big win over a never-before-stopped contender. Three of the four at the top have losing records over the past two years, after all. There was some strong dissent among members who believe that he would be better suited for #3 or #4 at this point; those losses at the top, they argued, were to top-level guys.

As it is, the Juggernaut has arrived. He is now a frightening prospect for every heavyweight this side of former champ Tyson Fury. Usyk’s crown is wobbling.

I swear the tbrb have a dislike for Joshua. They never made him champion when he beat Klitschko. They made Fury champion for beating Wilder. They recently elevated Usyk to champion after the fact (as they maintained that Fury was still champion when Usyk beat Joshua the second time). And now this.

Oh, and they have Wallin at #6...jokers

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 06:12

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:33 This is TBRB's explaination.. They moved him just under Usyk..

Juggernaut Joe Joyce (#5) stops Joseph Parker (#4) with a left hook after a performance that had many observers wondering if Joyce’s jaw bone was surgically replaced with a steel beam. A clear majority voted that Joyce should advance from #5 to #1 at Heavyweight as a result of his big win over a never-before-stopped contender. Three of the four at the top have losing records over the past two years, after all. There was some strong dissent among members who believe that he would be better suited for #3 or #4 at this point; those losses at the top, they argued, were to top-level guys.

As it is, the Juggernaut has arrived. He is now a frightening prospect for every heavyweight this side of former champ Tyson Fury. Usyk’s crown is wobbling.

I swear the tbrb have a dislike for Joshua. They never made him champion when he beat Klitschko. They made Fury champion for beating Wilder. They recently elevated Usyk to champion after the fact (as they maintained that Fury was still champion when Usyk beat Joshua the second time). And now this.

Oh, and they have Wallin at #6...jokers

Was Fury retired at the time? I know he vacated his belts, but he kept his Ring mag belt didn't he?

The most recent Fury retirement, TBRB removed him..

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 06:53

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 06:12

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:33 This is TBRB's explaination.. They moved him just under Usyk..

Juggernaut Joe Joyce (#5) stops Joseph Parker (#4) with a left hook after a performance that had many observers wondering if Joyce’s jaw bone was surgically replaced with a steel beam. A clear majority voted that Joyce should advance from #5 to #1 at Heavyweight as a result of his big win over a never-before-stopped contender. Three of the four at the top have losing records over the past two years, after all. There was some strong dissent among members who believe that he would be better suited for #3 or #4 at this point; those losses at the top, they argued, were to top-level guys.

As it is, the Juggernaut has arrived. He is now a frightening prospect for every heavyweight this side of former champ Tyson Fury. Usyk’s crown is wobbling.

I swear the tbrb have a dislike for Joshua. They never made him champion when he beat Klitschko. They made Fury champion for beating Wilder. They recently elevated Usyk to champion after the fact (as they maintained that Fury was still champion when Usyk beat Joshua the second time). And now this.

Oh, and they have Wallin at #6...jokers

Was Fury retired at the time? I know he vacated his belts, but he kept his Ring mag belt didn't he?

The most recent Fury retirement, TBRB removed him..

Fury was officially retired at the time of Klitschko v Joshua, yes.

On the recent retirement, maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Ring removed him when he gave up his belt, but TBRB didn't follow suit straight away, still having him listed as their Champion on the day of Usyk v Joshua 2. I recall some TBRB members' argument at the time for this was that, because Fury still held the WBC title, he wasn't actually retired. I guess they changed their mind on it.

I'm not actually against them recognizing Usyk as champion, btw. My point was more they almost went out of their way not to make Joshua champion when he beat Klitschko, which was a madness because they had Klitschko #2 and Joshua #1 in the aftermath of the fight. They seem quite flexible on their rules when it suits them

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 Sep 2022, 14:03

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑25 Sep 2022, 12:47 i think whyte has a slightly better record and he won their h2h, not really much in it btwn them tbh you could shuffle them around without it hardly making a difference. but i think it makes sense to just straight up swap joyce and parker

interesting point. I think Whyte is shot.

You got that one right.

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 07:35

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 06:53

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 06:12
I swear the tbrb have a dislike for Joshua. They never made him champion when he beat Klitschko. They made Fury champion for beating Wilder. They recently elevated Usyk to champion after the fact (as they maintained that Fury was still champion when Usyk beat Joshua the second time). And now this.

Oh, and they have Wallin at #6...jokers

Was Fury retired at the time? I know he vacated his belts, but he kept his Ring mag belt didn't he?

The most recent Fury retirement, TBRB removed him..

Fury was officially retired at the time of Klitschko v Joshua, yes.

On the recent retirement, maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Ring removed him when he gave up his belt, but TBRB didn't follow suit straight away, still having him listed as their Champion on the day of Usyk v Joshua 2. I recall some TBRB members' argument at the time for this was that, because Fury still held the WBC title, he wasn't actually retired. I guess they changed their mind on it.

By November 2016,. when the rematch fell apart, TBRB removed Fury, but they also removed Klit for some reason. Maybe due to not having fought for a year as per their consensus. But they didn't re-instate him (like they did Canelo) when he signed to fight AJ.

So by time they fought, their ranking was:

Champion: Open
1. Anthony Joshua
2. Luis Ortiz
3. Deontay Wilder
4. Joseph Parker
5. Kubrat Pulev

Klit was only re-instated and placed at #2 he lost to AJ. There was slight talks of a rematch that didn't matierlise.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 08:20

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 07:35

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 06:53

Was Fury retired at the time? I know he vacated his belts, but he kept his Ring mag belt didn't he?

The most recent Fury retirement, TBRB removed him..

Fury was officially retired at the time of Klitschko v Joshua, yes.

On the recent retirement, maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Ring removed him when he gave up his belt, but TBRB didn't follow suit straight away, still having him listed as their Champion on the day of Usyk v Joshua 2. I recall some TBRB members' argument at the time for this was that, because Fury still held the WBC title, he wasn't actually retired. I guess they changed their mind on it.

By November 2016,. when the rematch fell apart, TBRB removed Fury, but they also removed Klit for some reason. Maybe due to not having fought for a year as per their consensus. But they didn't re-instate him (like they did Canelo) when he signed to fight AJ.

So by time they fought, their ranking was:

Champion: Open
1. Anthony Joshua
2. Luis Ortiz
3. Deontay Wilder
4. Joseph Parker
5. Kubrat Pulev

Klit was only re-instated and placed at #2 he lost to AJ. There was slight talks of a rematch that didn't matierlise.

Yes, I recall the ins and outs of it.

But the thing is, Fury retired, not Klitschko.

Klitschko was inactive because of Fury messing him about. They dropped Klitschko from the rankings (he was #1) whilst there were already articles on the rumoured Joshua fight published in October. They drop Klitschko from the rankings on December 13th (according to their archive). Less than two weeks later, still in December, Joshua v Klitschko was officially announced.

So, why not retrospectively correct their mistake and make Joshua champion. They just did it for Usyk.

As I said, they are willing to bend the rules when it suits them.

Edit: Just to add, you know who they didn't drop from their rankings for innactivity? Fury and Wilder for the third fight, they bent the rules on that one too.

At the end of the day they are just another ranking body dominated by an American voting block. I don't see how they are much different to The Ring to be honest

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 09:06

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 08:20

Finkel wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 07:35
Fury was officially retired at the time of Klitschko v Joshua, yes.

On the recent retirement, maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Ring removed him when he gave up his belt, but TBRB didn't follow suit straight away, still having him listed as their Champion on the day of Usyk v Joshua 2. I recall some TBRB members' argument at the time for this was that, because Fury still held the WBC title, he wasn't actually retired. I guess they changed their mind on it.

By November 2016,. when the rematch fell apart, TBRB removed Fury, but they also removed Klit for some reason. Maybe due to not having fought for a year as per their consensus. But they didn't re-instate him (like they did Canelo) when he signed to fight AJ.

So by time they fought, their ranking was:

Champion: Open
1. Anthony Joshua
2. Luis Ortiz
3. Deontay Wilder
4. Joseph Parker
5. Kubrat Pulev

Klit was only re-instated and placed at #2 he lost to AJ. There was slight talks of a rematch that didn't matierlise.

Yes, I recall the ins and outs of it.

But the thing is, Fury retired, not Klitschko.

Klitschko was inactive because of Fury messing him about. They dropped Klitschko from the rankings (he was #1) whilst there were already articles on the rumoured Joshua fight published in October. They drop Klitschko from the rankings on December 13th (according to their archive). Less than two weeks later, still in December, Joshua v Klitschko was officially announced.

So, why not retrospectively correct their mistake and make Joshua champion. They just did it for Usyk.

As I said, they are willing to bend the rules when it suits them.

Edit: Just to add, you know who they didn't drop from their rankings for inactivity? Fury and Wilder for the third fight, they bent the rules on that one too.

At the end of the day they are just another ranking body dominated by an American voting block. I don't see how they are much different to The Ring to be honest

I agree they shouldn't have dropped Klit tbh.. He still had a fight scheduled until Fury pulled out.

The Fury/Wilder situation they used COVID as an excuse as many boxers were hardly even fighting. They would have had to remove a lot of boxers..

joshj909 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:52

KiwiRider wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:42 What a load of bollocks.

One good win and one medium good win and they think Joyce is that high up?

Remember when AJ facing Parker was called the "easy" option over Wilder...

I do, and I still agree even if it happened next week. AJ made pretty easy work of Parker. Wilder back then would have lost every round to AJ until he knocked him out cold.

KiwiRider wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 14:06

joshj909 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:52

KiwiRider wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 05:42 What a load of bollocks.

One good win and one medium good win and they think Joyce is that high up?

Remember when AJ facing Parker was called the "easy" option over Wilder...

I do, and I still agree even if it happened next week. AJ made pretty easy work of Parker. Wilder back then would have lost every round to AJ until he knocked him out cold.

And here we are 4 years later and a win over Parker makes you second best in the division, even over other people who have beaten him.

You can’t live in the past.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022, 14:52 You can’t live in the past.

Screw you!

Will wrap this on the weekend..

It's rarely a good idea to put too much emphasis on one fight but there are exceptions.

Joe Joyce has faced years of criticism from many boxing fans and been routinely dismissed as a second rate fighter.

However, no fans are not immune to making mistakes and misjudgements.

With wins over Daniel Dubois and Joseph Parker it's pretty obvious that Joe Joyce has been the victim of misrepresentation.

Just how good he actually isn't clear and won't be until he flattens the likes of Tyson Fury.

Fury v Wallin would be an absolute disgrace and a slap in the face to all boxing fans worldwide.