BoxRec

Journeymen are suspended for 28 days if they get stopped, is that right? I’d change that to a 28 day suspension for losing via any outcome.

I've always thought the journeyman concept was a complete fabrication and just an excuse for poor matchmaking and padded records. Good quality amateurs; some with international experience, fighting someone like Lee Connelly or Chris Adaway. It serves no purpose whatsoever. All it provides is a platform for the home fighter to shift a few hundred tickets to their loyal followers. Money for old rope. They would have harder spars and learn nothing.

Black Sam Bellamy wrote: ↑07 Dec 2022, 04:07 I've always thought the journeyman concept was a complete fabrication and just an excuse for poor matchmaking and padded records. Good quality amateurs; some with international experience, fighting someone like Lee Connelly or Chris Adaway. It serves no purpose whatsoever. All it provides is a platform for the home fighter to shift a few hundred tickets to their loyal followers. Money for old rope. They would have harder spars and learn nothing.

The money for old rope line is correct. For the journeyman. For the ticketseller, its usually very hard work.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2022, 08:06

Black Sam Bellamy wrote: ↑07 Dec 2022, 04:07 I've always thought the journeyman concept was a complete fabrication and just an excuse for poor matchmaking and padded records. Good quality amateurs; some with international experience, fighting someone like Lee Connelly or Chris Adaway. It serves no purpose whatsoever. All it provides is a platform for the home fighter to shift a few hundred tickets to their loyal followers. Money for old rope. They would have harder spars and learn nothing.

The money for old rope line is correct. For the journeyman. For the ticketseller, its usually very hard work.

I take your point around selling tickets being harder than the fight itself for sure.

I really don't see what a fighter learns fighting a string of guys who are there to fall over other than maybe building their confidence up. You will learn more in sparring in most cases, Fabio Wardley was talking the other day about sparring guys like Usyk and Fury, he will learn more in those sessions than fighting 20 journeymen who aren't trying. I don't have a problem with a new pro being fed a few tough journeymen who won't fall over, will give them hard rounds and problems as they will learn from these bouts. Unfortunately boxing today is all about having the perfect record.

Lee Connelly: Sheffield boxer to hang up gloves after 99 professional fights

It’s the final bell for Westfield-based Lee Connelly on Sunday – and the 35-year-old hopes to spoil the party against Doncaster’s Jimmy Joe Flint at the Magna Centre in Rotherham.

Connelly, a well-respected journeyman, no longer has to worry about upsetting managers and promoters with retirement looming.

He said: “I’m going to try and go for the win.

"I can’t say I have put myself in the best position to do that because these days I don’t train as much.

"I’m not as dedicated as I used to be and I have been ill a few times in the last couple of months, which has set my progress back.

"But when I get in the ring and that bell rings I’m going to give it my all.”
--------------

Connelly had been on track to reach 100 fights as a professional before the British Boxing Board of Control, the sport’s governing body in the UK, suspended his license earlier this year.

He said: “I took an eight-round fight at a day’s notice and although I didn’t get stopped I took a lot of punches.

"These days I take more punches than I used to and it’s not the most sensible sport.

"To me 100 is just a number. I’m not going to be pushed into doing it and how many people do 99 and retire? It’s unique.”

Dad-of-one Connelly is also under strict orders from his partner and mother of their son Gabriel, Rosa, to retire this year.

“Unless we have a big fall out I’m just going to stick to 99,” he added.

"She will think we can live what might be more of a normal life but for myself it will be an adjustment and sense of disappointment in the missed opportunities and things not going the way I wanted at the start.

"But at the same time I can be proud of what I have achieved.”

On the prospect of bowing out with a rare win, Connelly said: “I wish it would mean more to me than it will.”

The above looked like he went straight into journeyman path.

His record was 8 (0 KO's), 83 (8 KO's) 7

Dioufy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 15:53 Journeymen are suspended for 28 days if they get stopped, is that right? I’d change that to a 28 day suspension for losing via any outcome.

28 days or 45 days or more, at the discretion of the doctor in charge at the show - see https://bbbofc.com/build/documents/Rule ... s_2022.pdf at rule 5.8(c). But doctors can also issue a medical suspension at the show if, for example, the fight went to points but it was a hard contest. I've seen a medical suspension issued to a fighter who had won the fight, for the same reason.

olij999 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 07:26

Dioufy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 15:53 Journeymen are suspended for 28 days if they get stopped, is that right? I’d change that to a 28 day suspension for losing via any outcome.

28 days or 45 days or more, at the discretion of the doctor in charge at the show - see https://bbbofc.com/build/documents/Rule ... s_2022.pdf at rule 5.8(c). But doctors can also issue a medical suspension at the show if, for example, the fight went to points but it was a hard contest. I've seen a medical suspension issued to a fighter who had won the fight, for the same reason.

Did not know that; thanks!

If you don’t get stopped but get suspended for being in a dust up that’s fine as it means it was probably competitive with both guys trying to win.

I’m very much against fights where only one fighter is going to win. I wouldn’t mind journeymen fighting other journeymen. Just want competitive fights regardless of ability.

When you have Olympic medalists fighting 3-40 Bulgarian warehouse workers who are a stone lighter then that’s just wrong. And it’s very dangerous.

The current issue/standard of journeymen is due to two main factors…
Lazy or poor matchmakers:- A good matchmaker could make 70/30 matches every week. Whether the ticket sellers and there managers would accept all the fights is debatable.
With the proliferation of videos uploaded on YouTube every week, why doesn’t one actually ask a matchmaker some probing questions?
The other issue is the Board could refuse to sanction more of these fights if they were of the opinion that they were not reasonable matches. This would take resources and someone with in-depth knowledge of the sport, not just in the Uk but around the world! I would be interested to know how strict other commissions are with matching undercards, particularly the US who seem to have far better undercards on the TV shows at least…

maninthemiddle wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 09:30 The current issue/standard of journeymen is due to two main factors…
Lazy or poor matchmakers:- A good matchmaker could make 70/30 matches every week. Whether the ticket sellers and there managers would accept all the fights is debatable.
With the proliferation of videos uploaded on YouTube every week, why doesn’t one actually ask a matchmaker some probing questions?
The other issue is the Board could refuse to sanction more of these fights if they were of the opinion that they were not reasonable matches. This would take resources and someone with in-depth knowledge of the sport, not just in the Uk but around the world! I would be interested to know how strict other commissions are with matching undercards, particularly the US who seem to have far better undercards on the TV shows at least…

As a pretty experienced matchmaker I can tell you with certainty thats its not the matchmakers. You do get bookers who just fill a spot as easy as possible but matchmaker if allowed would give entertaining decent fights most of the time. Trainers managers boxers next door neighbours postmen parents nutritionists S/C coaches are just a few of the people who will have input on matches and reasons why a fight with someone cant go ahead. Theres no debate most of them wont take them.

I'm actually doing a lot less matchmaking now as its just boring going thru the same shenanigans with the "teams"

Also and iv brought this up many times the lads in the away corner will give a harder fight if they beleive they will get rewarded for it, A lot of journeymen and away fighters in general dont give it there all because they beleive it makes no difference on the score cards, But the plus side of that is if they beleive they have a chance they will go at it really hard. (Examples of this that I know first hand Brett Fidoe, Ben fields, Terry carruthers all try or tried much harder in the central area than the southern area).

Sometimes last minute pull outs or injuries mean you make a fight your not genuinly happy with and I suppose the board have to go along these lines as well. In a perfect world they could go with a quality control that we would all like to see but what happens in a scenario where there is a last min pull out ? do they stick there guns so that fighter is off the bill? does that fighter being off the bill mean the show collapses?(can happen with a big seller)
So the matchmaker and the board sometimes have to make decisions nobody is happy with to get things done.

Also the fans who are not happy about this thing happening are partly to blame. A fighter wants to build up and get on tv so he trys his best to keep winning, Takes a step up because his fans are badgering him too takes a loss in a decent 50 50 next fight can only sell 20 tickets, Seen it happen. If fans supported a boxer who was game and took good fights regardless of a few losses you would see more fighters happy to take those risks. A lot of the time the fighter isnt scared of the loss or the opp they are scared what a six round pts loss will do to there career if there fans just move on to the next unbeaten prospect who is being touted.

Lengthy post and could go on about this all day spoke about it in lots of podcasts and interviews and its never as clear cut and as simple as it seems

jonp wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:26

maninthemiddle wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 09:30 The current issue/standard of journeymen is due to two main factors…
Lazy or poor matchmakers:- A good matchmaker could make 70/30 matches every week. Whether the ticket sellers and there managers would accept all the fights is debatable.
With the proliferation of videos uploaded on YouTube every week, why doesn’t one actually ask a matchmaker some probing questions?
The other issue is the Board could refuse to sanction more of these fights if they were of the opinion that they were not reasonable matches. This would take resources and someone with in-depth knowledge of the sport, not just in the Uk but around the world! I would be interested to know how strict other commissions are with matching undercards, particularly the US who seem to have far better undercards on the TV shows at least…

As a pretty experienced matchmaker I can tell you with certainty thats its not the matchmakers. You do get bookers who just fill a spot as easy as possible but matchmaker if allowed would give entertaining decent fights most of the time. Trainers managers boxers next door neighbours postmen parents nutritionists S/C coaches are just a few of the people who will have input on matches and reasons why a fight with someone cant go ahead. Theres no debate most of them wont take them.

I'm actually doing a lot less matchmaking now as its just boring going thru the same shenanigans with the "teams"

Also and iv brought this up many times the lads in the away corner will give a harder fight if they beleive they will get rewarded for it, A lot of journeymen and away fighters in general dont give it there all because they beleive it makes no difference on the score cards, But the plus side of that is if they beleive they have a chance they will go at it really hard. (Examples of this that I know first hand Brett Fidoe, Ben fields, Terry carruthers all try or tried much harder in the central area than the southern area).

Sometimes last minute pull outs or injuries mean you make a fight your not genuinly happy with and I suppose the board have to go along these lines as well. In a perfect world they could go with a quality control that we would all like to see but what happens in a scenario where there is a last min pull out ? do they stick there guns so that fighter is off the bill? does that fighter being off the bill mean the show collapses?(can happen with a big seller)
So the matchmaker and the board sometimes have to make decisions nobody is happy with to get things done.

Also the fans who are not happy about this thing happening are partly to blame. A fighter wants to build up and get on tv so he trys his best to keep winning, Takes a step up because his fans are badgering him too takes a loss in a decent 50 50 next fight can only sell 20 tickets, Seen it happen. If fans supported a boxer who was game and took good fights regardless of a few losses you would see more fighters happy to take those risks. A lot of the time the fighter isnt scared of the loss or the opp they are scared what a six round pts loss will do to there career if there fans just move on to the next unbeaten prospect who is being touted.

Lengthy post and could go on about this all day spoke about it in lots of podcasts and interviews and its never as clear cut and as simple as it seems

Good to hear from you, Jon, and your post is a good read. Your point about fans not buying tickets next time if their fighter loses is well made, but it also shows that promoters do not promote in the same way as they used to (as they put the onus on the home fighter with a ticket deal). In ye olden days (let's not discuss how far back as that is a debate in itself), with some small-hall promoters, fans knew they were going to get a good show, regardless of who was on it, so fans would come to see the fights, not a particular fighter. Do you think those days could ever come back? What I'm really asking is - do you think (i) promoters are right to push fighters down the ticket-deal line as it is harder to get the message out there to customers these days with so many things competing for people's attention; or (ii) some promoters should do a bit more actual promoting to get the fans in rather than put the onus on the fighters?

Some interesting points there Jon but let's face it, the sport outside the elite PPV level is absolutely dead on its feat at the moment. You only have to look at the gates for Whyte v Franklin and Parker v Ryder. And it will be the same for Yarde v Beterbiev. The overall package has to improve.

olij999 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:09

jonp wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:26

maninthemiddle wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 09:30 The current issue/standard of journeymen is due to two main factors…
Lazy or poor matchmakers:- A good matchmaker could make 70/30 matches every week. Whether the ticket sellers and there managers would accept all the fights is debatable.
With the proliferation of videos uploaded on YouTube every week, why doesn’t one actually ask a matchmaker some probing questions?
The other issue is the Board could refuse to sanction more of these fights if they were of the opinion that they were not reasonable matches. This would take resources and someone with in-depth knowledge of the sport, not just in the Uk but around the world! I would be interested to know how strict other commissions are with matching undercards, particularly the US who seem to have far better undercards on the TV shows at least…

As a pretty experienced matchmaker I can tell you with certainty thats its not the matchmakers. You do get bookers who just fill a spot as easy as possible but matchmaker if allowed would give entertaining decent fights most of the time. Trainers managers boxers next door neighbours postmen parents nutritionists S/C coaches are just a few of the people who will have input on matches and reasons why a fight with someone cant go ahead. Theres no debate most of them wont take them.

I'm actually doing a lot less matchmaking now as its just boring going thru the same shenanigans with the "teams"

Also and iv brought this up many times the lads in the away corner will give a harder fight if they beleive they will get rewarded for it, A lot of journeymen and away fighters in general dont give it there all because they beleive it makes no difference on the score cards, But the plus side of that is if they beleive they have a chance they will go at it really hard. (Examples of this that I know first hand Brett Fidoe, Ben fields, Terry carruthers all try or tried much harder in the central area than the southern area).

Sometimes last minute pull outs or injuries mean you make a fight your not genuinly happy with and I suppose the board have to go along these lines as well. In a perfect world they could go with a quality control that we would all like to see but what happens in a scenario where there is a last min pull out ? do they stick there guns so that fighter is off the bill? does that fighter being off the bill mean the show collapses?(can happen with a big seller)
So the matchmaker and the board sometimes have to make decisions nobody is happy with to get things done.

Also the fans who are not happy about this thing happening are partly to blame. A fighter wants to build up and get on tv so he trys his best to keep winning, Takes a step up because his fans are badgering him too takes a loss in a decent 50 50 next fight can only sell 20 tickets, Seen it happen. If fans supported a boxer who was game and took good fights regardless of a few losses you would see more fighters happy to take those risks. A lot of the time the fighter isnt scared of the loss or the opp they are scared what a six round pts loss will do to there career if there fans just move on to the next unbeaten prospect who is being touted.

Lengthy post and could go on about this all day spoke about it in lots of podcasts and interviews and its never as clear cut and as simple as it seems

Good to hear from you, Jon, and your post is a good read. Your point about fans not buying tickets next time if their fighter loses is well made, but it also shows that promoters do not promote in the same way as they used to (as they put the onus on the home fighter with a ticket deal). In ye olden days (let's not discuss how far back as that is a debate in itself), with some small-hall promoters, fans knew they were going to get a good show, regardless of who was on it, so fans would come to see the fights, not a particular fighter. Do you think those days could ever come back? What I'm really asking is - do you think (i) promoters are right to push fighters down the ticket-deal line as it is harder to get the message out there to customers these days with so many things competing for people's attention; or (ii) some promoters should do a bit more actual promoting to get the fans in rather than put the onus on the fighters?

I think promoters kind of have to because fans want to follow there mates not much else or an unbeaten superstar, I think a lot of promoters are not actually promoters but are doing shows so there lads dont have to box away and this shows. I honestly think boxers taking fights where they might lose will improve them as fighters and there fan base if they come through if they dont maybe not. Is it a risk worth taking for a good ticket seller no for an average seller yes. How do fighters see themself? Not many or there teams see themselves as people who need to be taking risks and for me thatsa lot of the problem.
Even small hall promoters struggle to entertain the fans and keep it going tho because if you put on good fights theres a chance and a certainty over time the home guys will lose, Now this makes great fights and keeps the fans coming but what can and has happened is
Other local managers or promoters then get in the ear of fighter who lost by a point for the midlands and tell them you wouldnt have done that with me or that was a dumb match to make you should be on our shows theres no tough stupid risky fights on our shows ( small print you got to sell 100 tickets or no wages but that comes later lol)
The fighter moves overcouple of easy wins new start the fans give it a go, get bored again suddenly the boxer is told well the only fight i can get you is this tv for good money or go on the road for average money on a regular basis.
Fighter has burnt bridges with first guy hasnt had the big contract appear that was spoke about so either retires or takes a few jobs on the road.

An example i got a lad to 10.0 who wasnt in mids he kept asking me for bigger fights he wasnt quite ready for or a show at home (he was the only pro where he was from) Being hinest i said it doesnt really work.
He came to me and said a promoter wants to manage him and has promised him to box at home its his dream would i release him. I had a discussion saying it wasnt likely and we are slowly getting somewhere, he insisted the manager promoter would put him on in his home town. So rather than stand in his way and hold him back i released him.

Never boxed in his home town and has boxed twice in two years in the away corner at the york hall lost both fights.

So even the promoters are scared to put on decent fights as there are people waiting to take advantage of anything that comes from a 50 50 fight.

Its a shit situation and stops fighters and shows being better than they could be. We are all guilty of it to a degree but luckily our shows and fighters attitudes are towards the improvement side rather than the ego side and it shows with our attendances and the results our fighters when they do step. They might not have perfect records but they are ready to fight.

Black Sam Bellamy wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:40 Some interesting points there Jon but let's face it, the sport outside the elite PPV level is absolutely dead on its feat at the moment. You only have to look at the gates for Whyte v Franklin and Parker v Ryder. And it will be the same for Yarde v Beterbiev. The overall package has to improve.

Almost totally agree apart from the ppv being any better to be honest. Because of how ppv works a lot of the time the undercard is awful and the whole show hinges on the main event being great, which if it isnt leaves everyone feeling crap which isnt good.

jonp wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:26

Also and iv brought this up many times the lads in the away corner will give a harder fight if they beleive they will get rewarded for it, A lot of journeymen and away fighters in general dont give it there all because they beleive it makes no difference on the score cards, But the plus side of that is if they beleive they have a chance they will go at it really hard. (Examples of this that I know first hand Brett Fidoe, Ben fields, Terry carruthers all try or tried much harder in the central area than the southern area).

i'd love to know what the reason is behind this, if you could say it mate, different refs or promoters or what?

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 09:13

jonp wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:26

Also and iv brought this up many times the lads in the away corner will give a harder fight if they beleive they will get rewarded for it, A lot of journeymen and away fighters in general dont give it there all because they beleive it makes no difference on the score cards, But the plus side of that is if they beleive they have a chance they will go at it really hard. (Examples of this that I know first hand Brett Fidoe, Ben fields, Terry carruthers all try or tried much harder in the central area than the southern area).

i'd love to know what the reason is behind this, if you could say it mate, different refs or promoters or what?

Tony Booth openly said he tried harder in Hull. Turned over two pals of mine....

I can see why someone tries harder on home turf but I’ve no idea why southern and central areas would be different

I think sometimes the UK journeymen turn up in a different mood and turn the tables on the prospect, it happens from time to time and probably more often than people realise. Harley Benn got beat by someone with no previous wins and a shed load of losses.

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:59 I can see why someone tries harder on home turf but I’ve no idea why southern and central areas would be different

I guess it's the same thing, the three fighters mentioned as trying harder in the central area are all from the West Midlands so that means more to them.

Controversial wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 15:43

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:59 I can see why someone tries harder on home turf but I’ve no idea why southern and central areas would be different

I guess it's the same thing, the three fighters mentioned as trying harder for the central area titles are all from the West Midlands so that means more to them.

Midlands fighters fight for the Midland Area title, you need to be from the likes of Liverpool and Manchester to fight for the Central Area belt

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:59 I can see why someone tries harder on home turf but I’ve no idea why southern and central areas would be different

Because fighters know where they will get a fairer deal from the local refs tbh So they try harder because its worth going for it because if you do the job theres a good chance youl get the nod

Coco wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 15:54

Controversial wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 15:43

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:59 I can see why someone tries harder on home turf but I’ve no idea why southern and central areas would be different

I guess it's the same thing, the three fighters mentioned as trying harder for the central area titles are all from the West Midlands so that means more to them.

Midlands fighters fight for the Midland Area title, you need to be from the likes of Liverpool and Manchester to fight for the Central Area belt

Sorry I didn't mean to type titles, they obviously didn't fight for them, I think he meant they tried harder in those areas as its more local to them than fighting down south. Well I'm assuming thats what he meant.

EDIT: Just seen his reply and nothing to do with that haha

As an example Brett got 7 or 8 of his wins in the central area Ben got 5 i think against good kids in the central area. I dont think any refs are bad tbf iv seen refs abroad and people dont realise how lucky we are with the experience of our refs. But the central area for example has got about 6 or 7 A star refs and tend to produce A star refs who are pretty strong and dont care about crowd noise or stuff like that.
Ages ago I tipped John Latham to become A star he did,and I believe Darren Sarginnson will be sooner rather than later. This doesnt mean I agree with every decision these guys have made same as they wouldnt agree with every fight I score and choose a winner and I've debated things with both guys, but know that if my away guy gives a good account theres a good chance heel get that win.
Same in the midlands area with Kev Parker I remember a coach saying to me early in kevs career towards the end of a fight whats the ref like and I said very fair and he said oh wev just lost it then and the fight was scored against us by a point, Kev Goes on to be an A star ref.
Reece Cartwright in wales if I have a fighter down there and hes the ref I tell them give it everything youv got heel score it without letting the crowd or a loud corner bother him.
Lads find it harder to get wins in certain places thats plain to see looking at records and they will recognise this and fight accordingly.
I think this comes a lot with experience or a strong structure as people are human and at the start or with no peers telling you different its easy to be influenced by a noisy crowd or loud well known corner. Theres also reasons some refs just disapear after a year or two they just dont make the grade.