BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 12:35

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 09:03

Seamus wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 08:59 Liston knew he couldn't beat Clay, took a dive and then for whatever reason changed his mind and got back up. I believe that 1st fight took a big toll psychologically on Liston.

He didn't change his mind, he just was confused, as he didn't expect Walcott to make a mistake and thus to give him more time.

Which irrefutable facts do you have to go with your theory? I have a heavyweight champion landing a clean right on his opponent in the first round of a fight.

As if your one is irrefutable.

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:55

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 12:35

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 09:03

He didn't change his mind, he just was confused, as he didn't expect Walcott to make a mistake and thus to give him more time.

Which irrefutable facts do you have to go with your theory? I have a heavyweight champion landing a clean right on his opponent in the first round of a fight.

As if your one is irrefutable.

I remember for years that Muhammad Ali would claim that he threw a punch that Jack Johnson "created" called an anchor punch to drop Sonny Liston with but I'm not quite sure anyone really bought that. In the entire career of Muhammad Ali do you really recall a time where he ever hit anybody one time flush and it dropped them?

Maybe when he fought the glass jawed Bob Foster or some sort of peon that he was defending the title against who had no chance of winning whatsoever just so he could hold on to the title longer than he should have but certainly not against a legitimate heavyweight threat to the title.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:59

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:55

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 12:35

Which irrefutable facts do you have to go with your theory? I have a heavyweight champion landing a clean right on his opponent in the first round of a fight.

As if your one is irrefutable.

I remember for years that Muhammad Ali would claim that he threw a punch that Jack Johnson "created" called an anchor punch to drop Sonny Liston with but I'm not quite sure anyone really bought that. In the entire career of Muhammad Ali do you really recall a time where he ever hit anybody one time flush and it dropped them?

Maybe when he fought the glass jawed Bob Foster or some sort of peon that he was defending the title against who had no chance of winning whatsoever just so he could hold on to the title longer than he should have but certainly not against a legitimate heavyweight threat to the title.

It clearly looked like a punch without power behind him.

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:02

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:59

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:55

As if your one is irrefutable.

I remember for years that Muhammad Ali would claim that he threw a punch that Jack Johnson "created" called an anchor punch to drop Sonny Liston with but I'm not quite sure anyone really bought that. In the entire career of Muhammad Ali do you really recall a time where he ever hit anybody one time flush and it dropped them?

Maybe when he fought the glass jawed Bob Foster or some sort of peon that he was defending the title against who had no chance of winning whatsoever just so he could hold on to the title longer than he should have but certainly not against a legitimate heavyweight threat to the title.

It clearly looked like a punch without power behind him.

I don't know about that.

If one watches the replay they can see where Liston's head knocks back and the muscles recoil from the punch, but whether it was such a devastating shot that it would have kept him down for the count or not is the real question.

The fact that Muhammad Ali kept standing over Sonny Liston after dropping him and chaos ensued I think was the only reason why Sonny Liston stayed down as long as he did.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:05

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:02

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:59

I remember for years that Muhammad Ali would claim that he threw a punch that Jack Johnson "created" called an anchor punch to drop Sonny Liston with but I'm not quite sure anyone really bought that. In the entire career of Muhammad Ali do you really recall a time where he ever hit anybody one time flush and it dropped them?

Maybe when he fought the glass jawed Bob Foster or some sort of peon that he was defending the title against who had no chance of winning whatsoever just so he could hold on to the title longer than he should have but certainly not against a legitimate heavyweight threat to the title.

It clearly looked like a punch without power behind him.

I don't know about that.

If one watches the replay they can see where Liston's head knocks back and the muscles recoil from the punch, but whether it was such a devastating shot that it would have kept him down for the count or not is the real question.

The fact that Muhammad Ali kept standing over Sonny Liston after dropping him and chaos ensued I think was the only reason why Sonny Liston stayed down as long as he did.

Of course, the was some power in it, but not enough to KO a man. Muscles recoiling can be noticed after a strong slap. When a guy remains conscious and keeps rolling like Sonny, everything becomes ultimately clear.

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:10

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:05

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:02

It clearly looked like a punch without power behind him.

I don't know about that.

If one watches the replay they can see where Liston's head knocks back and the muscles recoil from the punch, but whether it was such a devastating shot that it would have kept him down for the count or not is the real question.

The fact that Muhammad Ali kept standing over Sonny Liston after dropping him and chaos ensued I think was the only reason why Sonny Liston stayed down as long as he did.

Of course, the was some power in it, but not enough to KO a man. Muscles recoiling can be noticed after a strong slap. When a guy remains conscious and keeps rolling like Sonny, everything becomes ultimately clear.

For me it's clear because if Muhammad Ali really did learn some secret devastating punch that Jack Johnson allegedly created why the hell did he never use it at any other time in his career?

Sonny Liston had a neck like Primo Carnera, and never showed any sign at any other time in his career of ever being hurt by anybody. If Muhammad Ali was actually capable of dropping and stopping Sonny Liston with a single punch why the hell did he never use that shot against Joe Frazier or George Foreman or anyone else?

So I think there was something fishy to it all.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:13

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:10

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:05

I don't know about that.

If one watches the replay they can see where Liston's head knocks back and the muscles recoil from the punch, but whether it was such a devastating shot that it would have kept him down for the count or not is the real question.

The fact that Muhammad Ali kept standing over Sonny Liston after dropping him and chaos ensued I think was the only reason why Sonny Liston stayed down as long as he did.

Of course, the was some power in it, but not enough to KO a man. Muscles recoiling can be noticed after a strong slap. When a guy remains conscious and keeps rolling like Sonny, everything becomes ultimately clear.

For me it's clear because if Muhammad Ali really did learn some secret devastating punch that Jack Johnson allegedly created why the hell did he never use it at any other time in his career?

Sonny Liston had a neck like Primo Carnera, and never showed any sign at any other time in his career of ever being hurt by anybody. If Muhammad Ali was actually capable of dropping and stopping Sonny Liston with a single punch why the hell did he never use that shot against Joe Frazier or George Foreman or anyone else?

So I think there was something fishy to it all.

Anyone can throw a perfect punch during a fight. I think it was a good punch and the knockdown was real. Everything after that though was a farce. I'm not sure what Liston's motivations were for everything that came after. I certainly can't blame him for not rising to his feet while Ali was standing over him and screaming at him. Liston was never given the opportunity to beat the count.
I used to train a guy whos chin was granite. I had never seen him hurt, he was a very accomplished pro fighter but we sparred a lot, to varying degrees of seriousness, multiple times per week. He was a couple of weight classes bigger than me. I watched him take flush overhand rights from a fighter who was renowned for his big overhand right, which put word champions to sleep. His knees never buckled and the punches never made him take a backwards step. I remember one day my training partner and I were sparring and even though be both had big gloves and headguards on, I caught him with a perfect left hand that he walked into. He never went down but his legs buckled and he was clearly rocked. Then due to him being better than me, a bit embarrassed and pissed off, the rest of the session was not great for me

I know he took flush shots off bigger punchers than me and was never rocked but that one punch I threw was just a perfect storm of factors and it hurt him.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 19:58 The only fight I ever seen Mike Tyson be in that I will always believe is suspicious was when he knocked out Clifford Ettienne, because the moment that man hit the canvas he physically removed his own mouthpiece and just laid there. If you are legitimately knocked out you are too stupid to do anything like that.

I remember that

Believe it or not I brought that fight on VHS tape to school the Monday after it took place, and apparently every class throughout the day watched it in Coach Ronnie's classroom

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:05

DrDuke wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 21:02

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑31 Jan 2023, 20:59

I remember for years that Muhammad Ali would claim that he threw a punch that Jack Johnson "created" called an anchor punch to drop Sonny Liston with but I'm not quite sure anyone really bought that. In the entire career of Muhammad Ali do you really recall a time where he ever hit anybody one time flush and it dropped them?

Maybe when he fought the glass jawed Bob Foster or some sort of peon that he was defending the title against who had no chance of winning whatsoever just so he could hold on to the title longer than he should have but certainly not against a legitimate heavyweight threat to the title.

It clearly looked like a punch without power behind him.

I don't know about that.

If one watches the replay they can see where Liston's head knocks back and the muscles recoil from the punch, but whether it was such a devastating shot that it would have kept him down for the count or not is the real question.

The fact that Muhammad Ali kept standing over Sonny Liston after dropping him and chaos ensued I think was the only reason why Sonny Liston stayed down as long as he did.

Ali stood over him for maybe two seconds. Liston started rolling around after Ali had moved away.

Mark Young went down for the count from a Tyson punch that didn't land.

Useless ref and that bloke from The Ring with the cigars telling him what to do !!!!

Sonny Liston took the fight seriously. He was training hard, in good shape (arguably better than the 1st fight), he wasn't involved in the promotion of the fight as much as in the first fight and looked ready to go to war during the referee instruction.

The "Phantom punch" actually landed and landed hard but was Liston fall genuine ? Him never being knockdown before and this being Ali only one punch KO and first round KO at the same certainly doesn't help.

Liston also danced around like a drunken cat before getting up and he didn't even try to throw anything after getting up. It looked like he didn't want the fight to continue after the knockdown and was waiting for Jersey Joe Walcott to stop the fight.

Was it a fix ? Probably. Liston looked good before the fight but went down on Ali first hard punch and looked very "fakely drunk" once he was on the canvas and after getting up. Either Liston stopped caring right after getting down (which is unlikely) or he was told to do so (which is more likely considering Liston relationship to the mob and his gambling addiction).

Was Ali on it ? Probably not. The punches he landed were truly good punches and he looked genuinely angry and surprised when Liston got down + A lot of people at the time considered the first fight already dubious with Liston giving up very early after a very good 5th round (We later learned the whole context of Ali getting blinded in the 5th and Liston injuring his shoulder in the 6th so those claims are very unlikely) so Ali wanted a credible win against Liston sadly he didn't got it.

DrDuke wrote: ↑30 Jan 2023, 21:31 Liston was a horrible actor, while Walcott was a horrible referee, so it was easy to expose a fix. Ali didn't seem to be involved.

In his book "Sting Like a Bee" Jose Torres wrote "Liston came out and began to press Ali, but with seemingly reluctant steps. When Ali stopped he stopped too. He just followed Ali around trying to hit him with jabs. Ali moved around smiling while Liston's eyes appeared to have rays of fire in them..........Liston made the mistake of throwing a short jab. Ali took a step back, moving his head there inches to his right, and just as Liston's jab scraped the left side of Ali's face, Ali let go a swift straight right. Liston's eyes never saw the punch."

As the old saying goes it is the one you don't see that gets you.

How many times did Ali stop anyone with one punch. Not saying it can’t happen but the whole knockdown and rolling around didn’t look genuine to me. It would be interesting to know if anyone won big at the bookmakers “predicting” that result.

If it was fixed that Ring guy was in on it. The one with the cigars who actually stopped the fight

Controversial wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023, 14:12 How many times did Ali stop anyone with one punch.

How many times did Michael Nunn? Did you see Adrian Curiel on Saturday?

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 13:30

Controversial wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023, 14:12 How many times did Ali stop anyone with one punch.

How many times did Michael Nunn? Did you see Adrian Curiel on Saturday?

You quoted one line of my post so read the rest

Controversial wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 14:08

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 13:30

Controversial wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023, 14:12 How many times did Ali stop anyone with one punch.

How many times did Michael Nunn? Did you see Adrian Curiel on Saturday?

You quoted one line of my post so read the rest

I read all of it the first time.

Liston stayed down for reasons known only to him.
Ali was unaware of them, in fact he was shouting at Liston to get up and fight.

Liston was up and fighting.

I figure the punched knocked him down. Liston was embarrassed and thought about quitting. Then got up and decided to fights only to have the fight awkwardly stopped

Some rather interesting responses here. I don't know if it was a Fix or not.

But based on some rather interesting responses, I've questioned how Liston could possible be a top 10 heavyweight in some people's eyes. His mental fortitude seems rock bottom the guy put up less of a fight than Jess Willard getting his ass kicked. How are we to expect that Liston would deal with adversity of a big fight against someone who wasn't backing down? The guy folded like a chair. I mean that “aspect” of his craft has to be taken into consideration of how he would do against other great champion's. It's a reason why I fail to rank him as a top 10 fighter...it's too hard to ignore. He basically gave one of the worst championship performance's in the ring ever in a title fight.

His only saving grace could be he took a dive and never intended on fighting that night. Which would as least account for the fact he appeared a complete coward.

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 15:27

Controversial wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 14:08

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 13:30

How many times did Michael Nunn? Did you see Adrian Curiel on Saturday?

You quoted one line of my post so read the rest

I read all of it the first time.

So you will see I said it doesn't mean one punch finishes can't happen. However the other fights you mentioned the punches at least looked solid and the other guy looked legitimately out of it. The punch Ali landed he was going backwards and he hardly put anything into the punch. That coupled with the over dramatic rolling around by Liston plus Liston not looking genuinely hurt. It looked like he was trying to act knocked out. Then add the shady connections boxing and Liston had makes it looks even more suspicious. Didn’t the FBI investigate the fight or was that the first one?

Controversial wrote: ↑09 Nov 2023, 13:45

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 15:27

Controversial wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 14:08

You quoted one line of my post so read the rest

I read all of it the first time.

So you will see I said it doesn't mean one punch finishes can't happen. However the other fights you mentioned the punches at least looked solid and the other guy looked legitimately out of it. The punch Ali landed he was going backwards and he hardly put anything into the punch. That coupled with the over dramatic rolling around by Liston plus Liston not looking genuinely hurt. It looked like he was trying to act knocked out. Then add the shady connections boxing and Liston had makes it looks even more suspicious. Didn’t the FBI investigate the fight or was that the first one?

For the Nunn and Curiel, we had camera up close, replays etc. To say Ali hardly put anything on the punch is an assumption. Liston was hit flush, went down and struggled to get back up. If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

jwfg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 05:30

Controversial wrote: ↑09 Nov 2023, 13:45

jwfg wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 15:27

I read all of it the first time.

So you will see I said it doesn't mean one punch finishes can't happen. However the other fights you mentioned the punches at least looked solid and the other guy looked legitimately out of it. The punch Ali landed he was going backwards and he hardly put anything into the punch. That coupled with the over dramatic rolling around by Liston plus Liston not looking genuinely hurt. It looked like he was trying to act knocked out. Then add the shady connections boxing and Liston had makes it looks even more suspicious. Didn’t the FBI investigate the fight or was that the first one?

For the Nunn and Curiel, we had camera up close, replays etc. To say Ali hardly put anything on the punch is an assumption. Liston was hit flush, went down and struggled to get back up. If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

He landed a punch for sure but it certainly didn’t look much and didn’t land on the temple or point of chin so odd it had such a dramatic effect. My personal opinion was Liston wasn’t really as hurt as he was making out and was just waiting for the first half decent punch to drop. You can normally see when someone is on shaky legs or not quite with it but I didn’t see that with Liston. Agree to disagree.