BoxRec

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:40

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:31

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:02

Frazier in 68 was at peak, that's the year when he won the championship against Mathis and won the rematch against Bonavena in a one-sided fashion. Ali would lose to him just like he did later in reality.

Which one of them dropped him twice? Bonavena?

Neither. Bonavena did that in 66 in their first bout, not in the rematch of 68.

I didn't ask which year, I asked who dropped him twice.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:44

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:40

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:31

Which one of them dropped him twice? Bonavena?

Neither. Bonavena did that in 66 in their first bout, not in the rematch of 68.

I didn't ask which year, I asked who dropped him twice.

So, what relation did it have to Frazier of 68?

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:47

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:44

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:40

Neither. Bonavena did that in 66 in their first bout, not in the rematch of 68.

I didn't ask which year, I asked who dropped him twice.

So, what relation did it have to Frazier of 68?

Because it was 2 years earlier and his name was still Joe Frazier.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:52

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:47

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:44
I didn't ask which year, I asked who dropped him twice.

So, what relation did it have to Frazier of 68?

Because it was 2 years earlier and his name was still Joe Frazier.

That's when he was really raw. By 68 he improved clearly.

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:54 improved clearly.

In the same way Ali deteriorated after the ban?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:59

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:54 improved clearly.

In the same way Ali deteriorated after the ban?

And he did?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:52

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:47

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:44
I didn't ask which year, I asked who dropped him twice.

So, what relation did it have to Frazier of 68?

Because it was 2 years earlier and his name was still Joe Frazier.

And Cooper dropped Ali hard with a left hook, I mean if we're going to play that game.

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 11:02

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:52

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:47
So, what relation did it have to Frazier of 68?

Because it was 2 years earlier and his name was still Joe Frazier.

And Cooper dropped Ali hard with a left hook, I mean if we're going to play that game.

What game would you prefer to play? Monopoly?

Cooper dropped Ali five years earlier than 68, Oscar dropped Joe twice only two years early,

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 14:48

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 11:02

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 08:52
Because it was 2 years earlier and his name was still Joe Frazier.

And Cooper dropped Ali hard with a left hook, I mean if we're going to play that game.

What game would you prefer to play? Monopoly?

How about no game? It means dick that Joe got dropped by Bonavena. You think Joe had a glass jaw and that '68 Ali would ko him? Get real, Ali punched harder in 71 and couldn't hurt Frazier.

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 16:56

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 14:48

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 11:02
And Cooper dropped Ali hard with a left hook, I mean if we're going to play that game.

What game would you prefer to play? Monopoly?

How about no game? It means dick that Joe got dropped by Bonavena. You think Joe had a glass jaw and that '68 Ali would ko him? Get real, Ali punched harder in 71 and couldn't hurt Frazier.

I didn't say Ali would KO him. It does mean something that Joe got dropped (twice) and I don't think he has a glass jaw. In his prime, Ali was close to unhittable. His foot speed and movement were a lot better before the ban. Frazier would struggle to land on that version of Ali and pre-ban Ali also had faster hands and was more accurate than he was in FOTC.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 19:21

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 16:56

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 14:48

What game would you prefer to play? Monopoly?

How about no game? It means dick that Joe got dropped by Bonavena. You think Joe had a glass jaw and that '68 Ali would ko him? Get real, Ali punched harder in 71 and couldn't hurt Frazier.

I didn't say Ali would KO him. It does mean something that Joe got dropped (twice) and I don't think he has a glass jaw. In his prime, Ali was close to unhittable. His foot speed and movement were a lot better before the ban. Frazier would struggle to land on that version of Ali and pre-ban Ali also had faster hands and was more accurate than he was in FOTC.

Fair enough. Imo Frazier was in his prime around 68-69 and I think he would have been able to hit Ali and give him hell. It's close to a pick'em fight for me, but I would favor Frazier slightly.

I think had Muhammad Ali not been exiled he would have gotten more wear and tear and his career would have ended sooner than it did. I think by 1967 he was already showing a slight decrease in speed, and he most likely would have been matched up against people like Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry in 1968 and of course Buster Mathis and Jimmy Ellis as well.

He may very well have fought people like Leotis Martin and Thad Spencer, and of course would have fought Floyd Patterson the second time earlier as well. By 1969 there would have been the Frazier fight and I think it may very well have been a draw or Frazier coming out on top in a split decision. Which would have led to a rematch in 1970 in which Joe Frazier would have won a unanimous decision.

Instead of his career dragging on until 1978 he may very well have got out by 1974 or 1975. I think the exile in retrospect may have basically saved his career by extending it.

As for what I personally would have liked to have seen, I suppose I would have liked to have seen him do exhibitions with Johansson when he was 4-0 and I would have liked to have seen him against John L Gardner in an actual contest in 1979. I would have also like to have seen him against Tex Cobb in 1979-1980 since he was the original opponent which became Mike Weaver which became Larry Holmes. And of course I would have liked to have seen the George Foreman rematch that never did occur.

And being the martial arts fan that I am I would have liked to have seen him in a match with Antonio Inoki where the rules weren't so against Inoki, or for that matter I would have loved to have seen him against Bruce Lee in a specialty exhibition on ABC Wide World of Sports. I also would have loved to have seen him compete against Teofilio Stevenson either in a series of three round bouts or a 10 round match. Lastly I would have loved to have seen Muhammad Ali against Wilt Chamberlain in the one-off boxing match, but only if Wilt Chamberlain had an entire year to train specifically to face Muhammad Ali in an eight round or ten round bout.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 19:21

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 16:56

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 14:48

What game would you prefer to play? Monopoly?

How about no game? It means dick that Joe got dropped by Bonavena. You think Joe had a glass jaw and that '68 Ali would ko him? Get real, Ali punched harder in 71 and couldn't hurt Frazier.

I didn't say Ali would KO him. It does mean something that Joe got dropped (twice) and I don't think he has a glass jaw. In his prime, Ali was close to unhittable. His foot speed and movement were a lot better before the ban. Frazier would struggle to land on that version of Ali and pre-ban Ali also had faster hands and was more accurate than he was in FOTC.

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 23:32

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 19:21

hhaehre wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 16:56
How about no game? It means dick that Joe got dropped by Bonavena. You think Joe had a glass jaw and that '68 Ali would ko him? Get real, Ali punched harder in 71 and couldn't hurt Frazier.

I didn't say Ali would KO him. It does mean something that Joe got dropped (twice) and I don't think he has a glass jaw. In his prime, Ali was close to unhittable. His foot speed and movement were a lot better before the ban. Frazier would struggle to land on that version of Ali and pre-ban Ali also had faster hands and was more accurate than he was in FOTC.

Maybe you should watch his fights again.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑21 Feb 2023, 05:39

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 23:32

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 19:21
I didn't say Ali would KO him. It does mean something that Joe got dropped (twice) and I don't think he has a glass jaw. In his prime, Ali was close to unhittable. His foot speed and movement were a lot better before the ban. Frazier would struggle to land on that version of Ali and pre-ban Ali also had faster hands and was more accurate than he was in FOTC.

Maybe you should watch his fights again.

Maybe you should watch his fights finally instead of Muhammad Ali amazing speed highlights on youtube.

DrDuke wrote: ↑21 Feb 2023, 08:29

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑21 Feb 2023, 05:39

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Feb 2023, 23:32

Maybe you should watch his fights again.

Maybe you should watch his fights finally instead of Muhammad Ali amazing speed highlights on youtube.

I recently rewatched everything from Liston - Folley.

He did it all. Most of all I'd like for him to have retired earlier. He was making too much money for people for that to happen. Maybe if he had not got the decisions against Norton and/or Young he would have sailed off into the sunset a little earlier.

A rematch with Foreman would have been the only other thing,.

Hypothetically, I would love to have seen him during his exiled years as they would have been his absolute peak years.

He pretty much fought everyone, so it's hard to cite any opponents that I would have been desperate to see him against.

If you're talking real time, I would like to have seen him rematch Frazier in '72.

He started to look his old self in '72, if not quite vintage '66 style, but as close to it as he ever was post exile.

FOTC obviously took a lot out of Frazier, but Smokin' Joe was programmed to give Ali hell and I think it would have been another titanic contest.

He basically fought every top contender of the 60s and 70s. I guess it would have been nice if he fought Eddie Machen in late 1963 or avenged his amateur loss against Amos Johnson or both.

If I can think of anything at all, it's that Ali should have retired after beating Shavers in 1977. Or, at the very worst, that he got into decent shape and whipped Spinks in their first fight, and retired immediately afterward.

Ali's losses to Spinks, Holmes, and Berbick were a total shame. Those bouts simply shouldn't have happened.