BoxRec

Posted: **23 Mar 2005, 03:37**

Marciano was the last of the sub 200 lb heavies. He would have been
at a disadvantage agains't any top heavy from Liston onward. The prime
Ali would have been too fast and the vintage Ali too big. One reason
The Rock didn't make a comeback is because Liston beat Floyd Patterson
and Liston was just too big. Rocky was great but he would have been
hard pressed to compete agains't Ali or Frazier, wouldn't have had a
chance agains't Foreman or Tyson and claims that he could have beaten
Lennox Lewis are laughable.

Posted: **23 Mar 2005, 14:58**

snake33 wrote: One reason The Rock didn't make a comeback is because Liston beat Floyd Patterson and Liston was just too big.

I thought Marciano considered a comeback a couple of years earlier than that with the idea to fight then Champion, Swedens Ingemar Johansson?

Posted: **24 Mar 2005, 07:58**

KOJOE90 wrote:
snake33 wrote: One reason The Rock didn't make a comeback is because Liston beat Floyd Patterson and Liston was just too big.
I thought Marciano considered a comeback a couple of years earlier than that with the idea to fight then Champion, Swedens Ingemar Johansson?

He did but it never happened, then Patterson knocked out Johansson
twice. Both Johansson and Patterson were just below 200lb heavies
and would have been just right for Marciano. Liston at 220lb, who
knocked out Patterson twice was too big.

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 15:07**

snake33 wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
snake33 wrote: One reason The Rock didn't make a comeback is because Liston beat Floyd Patterson and Liston was just too big.
I thought Marciano considered a comeback a couple of years earlier than that with the idea to fight then Champion, Swedens Ingemar Johansson?
He did but it never happened, then Patterson knocked out Johansson
twice. Both Johansson and Patterson were just below 200lb heavies
and would have been just right for Marciano. Liston at 220lb, who
knocked out Patterson twice was too big.

It is very wrong to say that Marciano would have been too small for Ali. Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were almost exactly the same size as Marciano and they both came very close to beating Ali. And they weren't nearly as good fighters as Marciano.

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 15:10**

Marciano Frazier wrote:
snake33 wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote: I thought Marciano considered a comeback a couple of years earlier than that with the idea to fight then Champion, Swedens Ingemar Johansson?
He did but it never happened, then Patterson knocked out Johansson
twice. Both Johansson and Patterson were just below 200lb heavies
and would have been just right for Marciano. Liston at 220lb, who
knocked out Patterson twice was too big.
It is very wrong to say that Marciano would have been too small for Ali. Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were almost exactly the same size as Marciano and they both came very close to beating Ali. And they weren't nearly as good fighters as Marciano.

Si,Senior

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 15:41**

Ali had way too much movement for Marciano to contend with, in my opinion. I think this turns out somewhat like Ali (Clay)-Liston II.

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 16:55**

Marciano Frazier wrote:
snake33 wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote: I thought Marciano considered a comeback a couple of years earlier than that with the idea to fight then Champion, Swedens Ingemar Johansson?
He did but it never happened, then Patterson knocked out Johansson
twice. Both Johansson and Patterson were just below 200lb heavies
and would have been just right for Marciano. Liston at 220lb, who
knocked out Patterson twice was too big.
It is very wrong to say that Marciano would have been too small for Ali. Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were almost exactly the same size as Marciano and they both came very close to beating Ali. And they weren't nearly as good fighters as Marciano.

You can't judge Ali by his fights with Cooper and Jones ...the Jones fight was just Ali's 16 fight and he was hardly the finished article yet still beat the very good Jones clearly (I have the fight).
Really and simply the Ali who beat Liston, Frazier, Foreman and indeed Shavers was really in a different class to Marciano.

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 16:56**

Goodnight Fanclub wrote:Ali had way too much movement for Marciano to contend with, in my opinion. I think this turns out somewhat like Ali (Clay)-Liston II.

You're a fool to think that Ali would knock Marciano out early or at any other time in the fight. Marciano had a great chin and Ali did not have great punching power.

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 17:01**

Grimm wrote:
Goodnight Fanclub wrote:Ali had way too much movement for Marciano to contend with, in my opinion. I think this turns out somewhat like Ali (Clay)-Liston II.
You're a fool to think that Ali would knock Marciano out early or at any other time in the fight. Marciano had a great chin and Ali did not have great punching power.

I wouldn't say he was a fool... Marciano was a slow starter who was floored early in some of his fights... Ali was an underrated puncher who often held back on his punches due to his bad hands.
While I don't see Ali koing Marcinano early I could see either Liston or Foreman doing so.

Posted: **26 Mar 2005, 20:34**

silkov wrote:Ali was an underrated puncher

Posted: **27 Mar 2005, 14:08**

Tantum wrote:
silkov wrote:Ali was an underrated puncher

...Ali Koed Bonavena, Foreman, Lyle later in his career and most of his opponents in hid pre70s career... those who fought him have said that he could punch!.
Did you not know about his bad hands?........ 8)

Posted: **27 Mar 2005, 16:05**

Foreman was dead tired by the 4th round, And was up when the ref stopped the fight in the 8th... In a fight that looked fishy at best.

Bonavena got TKO'd in the 15th round... I haven't seen the fight, so I really can't say anything more than I'd bet money he couldn't see(cuts or swelling) and was tired when Ali dropped him. (Which says more for Ali's stamina than his power)

Ali couldn't even drop Ken Norton in 39 rounds, or Patterson in 19.

The most impressive KO on his record (Liston) is one of the biggest shams in boxing history.

Not to say he was feather fisted... He sure wasn't. But he had below average punching power for a heavyweight champ.

Regardless of Ali's power, he'd still UD Marciano.

Posted: **27 Mar 2005, 17:18**

Tantum wrote:Foreman was dead tired by the 4th round, And was up when the ref stopped the fight in the 8th... In a fight that looked fishy at best.

Do you think the fix was in?

Posted: **27 Mar 2005, 17:21**

I wouldn't say the fight was fixed, but something doesn't seem right.

Posted: **30 Mar 2005, 18:33**

silkov wrote:
Grimm wrote:
Goodnight Fanclub wrote:Ali had way too much movement for Marciano to contend with, in my opinion. I think this turns out somewhat like Ali (Clay)-Liston II.
You're a fool to think that Ali would knock Marciano out early or at any other time in the fight. Marciano had a great chin and Ali did not have great punching power.
I wouldn't say he was a fool... Marciano was a slow starter who was floored early in some of his fights... Ali was an underrated puncher who often held back on his punches due to his bad hands.
While I don't see Ali koing Marcinano early I could see either Liston or Foreman doing so.

Ok, now go sit down and think about what you have posted.

Posted: **31 Mar 2005, 06:12**

Grimm wrote:
silkov wrote:
Grimm wrote: You're a fool to think that Ali would knock Marciano out early or at any other time in the fight. Marciano had a great chin and Ali did not have great punching power.
I wouldn't say he was a fool... Marciano was a slow starter who was floored early in some of his fights... Ali was an underrated puncher who often held back on his punches due to his bad hands.
While I don't see Ali koing Marcinano early I could see either Liston or Foreman doing so.
I thought about it before I posted it!... if Foreman could ko Frazier then he could Ko Marciano too... Rocky never fought anyone approaching Foremans or Listons power. Liston too would have koed Marciano.

Ok, now go sit down and think about what you have posted.

Posted: **31 Mar 2005, 12:42**

silkov wrote:
Grimm wrote:
silkov wrote: I wouldn't say he was a fool... Marciano was a slow starter who was floored early in some of his fights... Ali was an underrated puncher who often held back on his punches due to his bad hands.
While I don't see Ali koing Marcinano early I could see either Liston or Foreman doing so.
I thought about it before I posted it!... if Foreman could ko Frazier then he could Ko Marciano too... Rocky never fought anyone approaching Foremans or Listons power. Liston too would have koed Marciano.

Ok, now go sit down and think about what you have posted.

You did not think hard enough.... I was simply refering to you saying something about Ali's power being underrated and saying he held back due to his bad hands that is some of the funniest stuff i've ever heard.

Posted: **31 Mar 2005, 17:17**

Grimm wrote:
silkov wrote:
Grimm wrote: I thought about it before I posted it!... if Foreman could ko Frazier then he could Ko Marciano too... Rocky never fought anyone approaching Foremans or Listons power. Liston too would have koed Marciano.

Ok, now go sit down and think about what you have posted.
You did not think hard enough.... I was simply refering to you saying something about Ali's power being underrated and saying he held back due to his bad hands that is some of the funniest stuff i've ever heard.

Laugh all you like mate, quite a few of Ali's opponents have said that he had a good punch... its well knwon that he often didnot go for a ko when he could have and it is also well known that Ali had very bad hands and that by the 70s he had to have both hands injected before every fight!... these are facts!.

.. I suggest you do some revising

as you obviously don't know half as much as you seem to think!... 8)

.

Posted: **01 Apr 2005, 05:52**

zuru wrote:
silkov wrote:With all due respect I have watched a lot of both Marciano and Frazier and Frazier was light years away from Marciano.... Rocky was a good brawler, with a good punch... Frazier was a hurricaine by comparison, a human wrecking machine! he had more speed, power, strength and overall boxing skills than Marciano by far. A pre exile Ali would have outboxed and stopped Marciano in about 10 rounds... he would cut Rocky to peices. The 1970s Ali would get hit more but the man who stood up to the punches of Frazier, Liston, fOREMAN, ShAVERS, and Lyle among others would not be koed by Rocky and would Ko Rocky himself.
I think Rocky was overrated as a puncher... he was more of a wear you down type of fighter than a one punch ko artist like Foreman, Liston, Shavers...etc... to say Rocky could have koed even an older Ali is fanciful imo.
SILKOV,
With respect back,i personally think(keywords I personally think)that Frazier was no where near the durability,strength,or power of Rocky.The only edge that I would give to Frazier over Rocky,was cut resistance.Clay would have had a chance by cutting Rocky,& using his speed,reach to stay away,and wait for a stoppage.IF he did not cut the Rock,he would get abused.Ali,who fought more stationary,& with more bravado than his younger self (Clay),would be beaten,violently,and STOPPED!!Frazier,also would have been K.O.ed!!,the machismo that worked against lesser fighters,& lack of mobility,would have brought him to an early defeat.As I said,this is just speculation on my part,and i'm sure plenty will disagree,but that's alright.This board is here for opinions and friendly debate between fellows as ourselves who apparently suffer from the same "boxing addicition" take care,
zuru

What more power than Foreman? You're deluded.

Marciano fought in an era with a much lower talent level than Ali's Charles, Louis and Walcott were all past their primes.

Rocky was also very small, and fought in an era where most of the top heavyweights were around 200 lbs or less. Ali fought and beat bigger stronger men than Rocky regularly.

The problem for Rocky is his lack of reach, and the fact that he was so much slower than Ali. Yes, he was durable, that's for sure, but he never faced anyone with the blistering speed of Ali. Marciano would have been hopelessly outgunned from range, and eventually stopped on cuts.

I honestly think Ali would have clowned him.

Posted: **01 Apr 2005, 06:00**

I agree, James

Much as I have huge admiration for RM, I just think Ali would have had too much of everything for him and it would have been a clear points or late round stoppage victory.

Faster hand, a good working jab, enough strength to keep Rm at bay and negate his best shots, a good chin.

Most of all, Ali had one thing that makes me think he has a chance against any and all in these matchups, the ability to morph his strategy as the fight and opponent dictated. I have seen almost all of RM's fights and, while they are certainly impressive and at times awesome, they appear to be relatively one note

In a 15 rounder. I call it Ali TKO 12

Slapsie

Posted: **01 Apr 2005, 08:48**

Ali is the better Boxer with strong hands, but i think RM was stronger.

Ali would win every time but not by KO, he would win with ease by points, with a few scares through the fight as Rocky would tag Ali, Rocky just wouldnt tag him to often with Ali's fast hands and foot work.

I do like Rocky and think he is in the top 5 HW of all time, its a match up that will be disscussed over and over, sadly we will never know!

Ali is the greatest just not in Rockys time!

Posted: **01 Apr 2005, 10:13**

I think Ali's physical strength was very much underrated. You've got to remember how effective he was in clinches, Frazier was every bit as strong as the Rock, though the Rock was technically the better puncher, especially his hook which was a crisp and sweetly timed bomb, rather than a cudgel.

Watch Ali in clinches with Foreman. You really think Rocky was stronger? In what sense? Rocky would have made an excellent weightlifter with his physique, but Ali was a lot more athletic and elasticly strong.

Even if Rocky was stronger, ali was very very effective at using leverage, he'd have had a field day with a guy as small as Rocky. Pushing down on him, spinning him in clinches. I think Rocky would have been all at sea, and Ali was a spiteful puncher when he had someone going. Look at the fights with Frazier and Foreman, ali could really go to town on a dazed and confused opponent. Foreman had an excellent chin, but Ali tore him down mentally and physically.

Posted: **01 Apr 2005, 12:07**

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think Ali's physical strength was very much underrated. You've got to remember how effective he was in clinches.

Excellent point James.

I think it was in Larry Holmes autobiography that Larry talks about Ali's ability whilst in clinches. Larry says something along the lines of that Ali was a master of leverage whilst in a clinch.

Posted: **01 Apr 2005, 16:34**

Ali was very strong physically, this is why he was still able to be the best in a very talented era when he had lost about 40% of his original speed... he was saved by his guile, heart, chin and great physical strength that allowed to him outlast monsters like Bonavena, Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Shavers... and also the fact that even a slower Ali was still pretty damn fast!...

8)

.
But really Ali of either 60s or 70s would beat Marciano and probably quite easily. For me Joe Frazier was a far more superior fighter to Marciano.

Posted: **02 Apr 2005, 10:06**

To be honest I always thought it was common knowledge that the 1970's version of Ali had bad hands.

I blame Joe Fraziers hard head.

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MARCIANO V ALI