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Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 19:31
by Joson
I just found one southpaw opponent for Norton. That was James J. Woody, who Norton defeated twice, once in 1971 and again in 1972. First fight went the distance, the second was stopped on cuts.
No indication as to how well Norton fought, though. It's interesting that he gave Woody a rematch. That in itself may be a hint that Ken looked less-than-impressive in the first fight. If anyone knows, correct me if I'm wrong.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 23:34
by Cojimar 1946
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Oct 2023, 10:35
Would pick Norton over Usyk.
He would have an easier time with Joshua. Simply clearly a better fighter.
Norton's resume falls off dramatically after his best win. If guys were assessed based solely on their best win than Michael Moorer would be better than Larry Holmes
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 18 Oct 2023, 05:56
by Joson
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Oct 2023, 10:35
Would pick Norton over Usyk.
He would have an easier time with Joshua. Simply clearly a better fighter.
Norton would have stood no chance against many of the giant heavyweights of the 2000s. That includes AJ, the Klitschkos, Lewis, Fury, Wilder, and numerous others. Ken, always vulnerable against big punchers, was simply too small.
Yes, I agree that Norton was the better fighter on a pound-for-pound, inch-for-inch basis. Easily. But Ken's superior ability wouldn't have compensated for his lack of physical size in this match.
Look at Norton's record. He was floored three times early in his career, by Harold Dutra, Jimmy Gilmore, and Aaron Eastling, none of whom were big bangers. Ken was also knocked down three times in a KO loss to 188 lbs Jose Luis Garcia.
Then there's Ken's flops against the atomic punchers. George Foreman floored Norton three times and KO'd him in two rounds. Shavers knocked him down twice en route to a first round stoppage. Cooney put him on the deck once during a first round icing.
Even Scott LeDoux - who wasn't known for power - scored two knockdowns over Norton while fighting him to a draw.
That's 14 knockdowns in total. Norton clearly didn't have the world's best chin. It's unthinkable he'd survive against AJ, who was 30 lbs heavier, three inches taller, physically stronger, just as quick, and that much more powerful.
Like it or not, size matters.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 18 Oct 2023, 14:00
by Ambling Alp II
Not sure where to start with this.
Yes, in fantasy fights, size for hws is a huge deal. In real life, no.
Usyk himself beat Joshua who is much bigger.
Wilder was mentioned. Norton often outweighed Wilder.
Norton was past it when he fought Shavers, and way past it when he fought Cooney and Ledoux. Those fights mean nothing.
Not to mention that Usyk is about the same size as Norton.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 18 Oct 2023, 14:04
by Ambling Alp II
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2023, 23:34
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Oct 2023, 10:35
Would pick Norton over Usyk.
He would have an easier time with Joshua. Simply clearly a better fighter.
Norton's resume falls off dramatically after his best win. If guys were assessed based solely on their best win than Michael Moorer would be better than Larry Holmes
Yes you like to dismiss a fighter's biggest win when it suits your argument. That is silly. The best fighter that guy beat should be one of the first things you look at, not dismissed. It shows what a guy is capable of.
Of course there is going to be a dropoff after Norton's biggest win. By definition, there has to be. However, he did give a prime Holmes all that he could handle. Holmes is also quite a bit better than anyone Usyk has beaten. And Jimmy Young and Jerry Quarry are pretty good wins.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 18 Oct 2023, 15:46
by Joson
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Oct 2023, 14:00
Not sure where to start with this.
Yes, in fantasy fights, size for hws is a huge deal. In real life, no.
Usyk himself beat Joshua who is much bigger.
Wilder was mentioned. Norton often outweighed Wilder.
Norton was past it when he fought Shavers, and way past it when he fought Cooney and Ledoux. Those fights mean nothing.
Not to mention that
Usyk is about the same size as Norton.
But Usyk and Norton have (had) vastly different styles. Usyk is a highly mobile speedster who can run and hide when necessary. Ken, essentially a flat-footed fighter, rarely had that option in the ring.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 19 Oct 2023, 07:48
by Seamus
Another reason I'd take Usyk, is that while both guys have good stamina and throw lots of punches till the final bell. Usyk would throw them faster in the final 3rd of the bout.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 19 Oct 2023, 10:46
by Ambling Alp II
My biggest problem with Usyk is that he untested. We are going off of 5 fights. He is supposed to have a power advantage, based on what? 2 stoppages against no-names.
The guy fights literally once a year. The last was against a complete no hoper.
He would come on strong in the last third of the fight? Based on barely beating Anthony Joshua? Joshua is nowhere near the level of Ken Norton.
On the other hand, Norton is well tested. He certainly fought guys that could move -Ali, Young, Holmes, and did pretty well.
In real life we have all seen this kind of thing play out countless times. Undefeated untested guy against a proven guy. Proven guy wins 9 out 10 times.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 19 Oct 2023, 11:41
by margaret thatcher
ya, just like he was also untested at cruiser. needed to fight more guys like court butler and wes martin and sione 'son of james fryerson' asipeli. all about being 'proven' vs good opposition
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 19 Oct 2023, 16:20
by oogiebe
I can see Norton taking out Usyk. Out jabbing him and landing that overhead right.
I can also see Usyk beating Kenny similar to Norton/Holmes fight.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 21 Oct 2023, 14:44
by Ambling Alp II
Can't see Norton losing to Usyk if he fought like he did against Holmes. Usyk ain't no Larry Holmes.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 21 Oct 2023, 18:28
by Joson
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Oct 2023, 14:44
Can't see Norton losing to Usyk if he fought like he did against Holmes. Usyk ain't no Larry Holmes.
But Holmes wasn't a southpaw, like Usyk. And Norton only fought one southpaw in his entire pro career (James. J. Woody).
For all we know, Usyk's southpaw stance might have confused and neutralized Norton all night long.
That Holmes was that much better than Usyk has no impact on this issue. Remember: styles make fights.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 10:32
by Ambling Alp II
Doesn't matter if a guy was a southpaw. Norton would have trained for that and adapted. Southpaws are rare, but if it was such a big deal, the southpaws would never lose.
Styles do not make fights, They can only sometimes influence them. The better fighter almost always wins regardless of styles.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 10:43
by Joson
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 10:32
Doesn't matter if a guy was a southpaw. Norton would have trained for that and adapted. Southpaws are rare, but if it was such a big deal, the southpaws would never lose.
Styles do not
make fights, They can only sometimes influence them. The better fighter almost always wins regardless of styles.
You're making short shrift out of an important, complex issue in boxing.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 12:07
by Seamus
Furthermore, Usyk took Joshua's best shots in 24 rds of boxing without being knocked down, and had him hurt at the bell in the 1st bout.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 13:34
by Ambling Alp II
How impressive. The legendary Anthony Joshua, whom he barely beat.
In 5 years as a hw, Usyk has scored two stoppages against hws. That would be against people named Chazz Witherspoon and Daniel Dubois.
How impressive. Who is Once a Year taking on next?
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 13:57
by Joson
Seamus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 12:07
Furthermore, Usyk took Joshua's best shots in 24 rds of boxing without being knocked down, and had him hurt at the bell in the 1st bout.
Are you certain Usyk took AJ's "best shots?" I assume Usyk, a defensive wizard, must have reduced the punches' psi by rolling with the shots and leaning away.
A powerful giant like Joshua could ice anyone with one shot if allowed to project his full weight into the punch.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 14:15
by Seamus
Usyk clearly won the first bout with Joshua and had him hurt at the final bell. He also won the rematch, though it was closer. Who did Norton ever stop ? Faded Quarry was stopped on cuts, KN hit him with everything and he didn't go down. I guess AJ became a bum in your estimation after Ruiz stopped him.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 23 Oct 2023, 16:28
by oogiebe
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Oct 2023, 14:44
Can't see Norton losing to Usyk if he fought like he did against Holmes. Usyk ain't no Larry Holmes.
Ok
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 24 Oct 2023, 09:39
by Ambling Alp II
Seamus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 14:15
Usyk clearly won the first bout with Joshua and had him hurt at the final bell. He also won the rematch, though it was closer. Who did Norton ever stop ? Faded Quarry was stopped on cuts, KN hit him with everything and he didn't go down. I guess AJ became a bum in your estimation after Ruiz stopped him.
Usyk should have been able to beat Joshua easier than he did. Yes AJ embarrassing loss to Ruiz hurts his case. Why wouldn't it? That and that his biggest wins are against opponents are senior citizens don't exactly help his cause. Joshua has done virtually nothing worth mentioning in his career.
Where is the evidence that Quarry was faded? He was only 29. He was ranked right behind Norton. He did hurt Quarry and btw, cuts do count.
Norton stopped Henry Clark who had a pretty good chin. He also hurt Holmes who obviously had a great chin.
Compare Norton's fights against Holmes, Quarry, Ali, and Young against Usyk's 5 hw fights. In comparison, Usyk's competition has been a joke so far.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 24 Oct 2023, 10:06
by Joson
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 09:39
Seamus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 14:15
Usyk clearly won the first bout with Joshua and had him hurt at the final bell. He also won the rematch, though it was closer. Who did Norton ever stop ? Faded Quarry was stopped on cuts, KN hit him with everything and he didn't go down. I guess AJ became a bum in your estimation after Ruiz stopped him.
Usyk should have been able to beat Joshua easier than he did. Yes AJ embarrassing loss to Ruiz hurts his case. Why wouldn't it? That and that his biggest wins are against opponents are senior citizens don't exactly help his cause. Joshua has done virtually nothing worth mentioning in his career.
Where is the evidence that Quarry was faded? He was only 29. He was ranked right behind Norton. He did hurt Quarry and btw, cuts do count.
Norton stopped Henry Clark who had a pretty good chin. He also hurt Holmes who obviously had a great chin.
Compare Norton's fights against Holmes, Quarry, Ali, and Young against Usyk's 5 hw fights. In comparison, Usyk's competition has been a joke so far.
It's well known that Quarry was on the athletic downside when he fought Norton. Jerry weighed a career-high 208 lbs for that bout, significantly heavier than in most prior fights. He took the fight on short notice, and didn't have a proper training camp.
Jerry took a terrible beating eight months earlier, against Joe Frazier, an experience that probably drained him of motivation. In his only other fight before Norton, in January 1975, Quarry looked sluggish in a tune-up against Scrap Iron Johnson.
Quarry was only 29, true. But he had been fighting pro for ten years, had been in lots of wars against top heavyweights, and was showing symptoms of burn-out.
Insiders claim that, after the June 1974 Frazier loss, Jerry did a lot of partying. He probably let himself go. They say he was drinking and playing golf the day that MSG called and offered him Norton on short notice.
As for Quarry's rating in March 1975, when he fought Norton, I recall that he was widely regarded as the seventh or eighth ranked contender. Going into that fight most magazines' ratings looked like this:
Champion: Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ken Norton
4. through 7. - Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Joe Bugner, or Oscar Bonavena (varied according to magazine)
8. Jerry Quarry
9. and 10. - Chuck Wepner, Howard Smith, Bob Stallings, Earnie Shavers, Henry Clark (varied according to magazine)
The Frazier loss knocked Quarry from the third or fourth position all the way down toward the bottom of the ratings. That's probably because of the decisive, one-sided nature of the defeat.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 24 Oct 2023, 13:53
by margaret thatcher
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 09:39
Seamus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 14:15
Usyk clearly won the first bout with Joshua and had him hurt at the final bell. He also won the rematch, though it was closer. Who did Norton ever stop ? Faded Quarry was stopped on cuts, KN hit him with everything and he didn't go down. I guess AJ became a bum in your estimation after Ruiz stopped him.
Usyk should have been able to beat Joshua easier than he did. Yes AJ embarrassing loss to Ruiz hurts his case. Why wouldn't it? That and that his biggest wins are against opponents are senior citizens don't exactly help his cause. Joshua has done virtually nothing worth mentioning in his career.
Where is the evidence that Quarry was faded? He was only 29. He was ranked right behind Norton. He did hurt Quarry and btw, cuts do count.
Norton stopped Henry Clark who had a pretty good chin. He also hurt Holmes who obviously had a great chin.
Compare Norton's fights against Holmes, Quarry, Ali, and Young against Usyk's 5 hw fights. In comparison, Usyk's competition has been a joke so far.
yes, all about quality and depth of top opposition now. not whether theyve fought a bunch of sh!tty '10 round fighters' who wouldnt know a jab from an uppercut
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 24 Oct 2023, 14:30
by gilgamesh
Out of curiosity what does everyone consider to be Norton's peak?
I'd say it was around the time of the 3rd Ali fight in 1975.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 24 Oct 2023, 14:31
by Ambling Alp II
Joson wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 10:06
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 09:39
Seamus wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 14:15
Usyk clearly won the first bout with Joshua and had him hurt at the final bell. He also won the rematch, though it was closer. Who did Norton ever stop ? Faded Quarry was stopped on cuts, KN hit him with everything and he didn't go down. I guess AJ became a bum in your estimation after Ruiz stopped him.
Usyk should have been able to beat Joshua easier than he did. Yes AJ embarrassing loss to Ruiz hurts his case. Why wouldn't it? That and that his biggest wins are against opponents are senior citizens don't exactly help his cause. Joshua has done virtually nothing worth mentioning in his career.
Where is the evidence that Quarry was faded? He was only 29. He was ranked right behind Norton. He did hurt Quarry and btw, cuts do count.
Norton stopped Henry Clark who had a pretty good chin. He also hurt Holmes who obviously had a great chin.
Compare Norton's fights against Holmes, Quarry, Ali, and Young against Usyk's 5 hw fights. In comparison, Usyk's competition has been a joke so far.
It's well known that Quarry was on the athletic downside when he fought Norton. Jerry weighed a career-high 208 lbs for that bout, significantly heavier than in most prior fights. He took the fight on short notice, and didn't have a proper training camp.
Jerry took a terrible beating eight months earlier, against Joe Frazier, an experience that probably drained him of motivation. In his only other fight before Norton, in January 1975, Quarry looked sluggish in a tune-up against Scrap Iron Johnson.
Quarry was only 29, true. But he had been fighting pro for ten years, had been in lots of wars against top heavyweights, and was showing symptoms of burn-out.
Insiders claim that, after the June 1974 Frazier loss, Jerry did a lot of partying. He probably let himself go. They say he was drinking and playing golf the day that MSG called and offered him Norton on short notice.
As for Quarry's rating in March 1975, when he fought Norton, I recall that he was widely regarded as the seventh or eighth ranked contender. Going into that fight most magazines' ratings looked like this:
Champion: Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ken Norton
4. through 7. - Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Joe Bugner, or Oscar Bonavena (varied according to magazine)
8. Jerry Quarry
9. and 10. - Chuck Wepner, Howard Smith, Bob Stallings, Earnie Shavers, Henry Clark (varied according to magazine)
The Frazier loss knocked Quarry from the third or fourth position all the way down toward the bottom of the ratings. That's probably because of the decisive, one-sided nature of the defeat.
Quarry was still #7 at the end of 1974 by Ring Magazine. This was after the Frazier fight. They had Norton #6. That's pretty good when you look at the quality of hws at that time. The division was loaded at the time. May never have been stronger.
The old line about Quarry not being ready for Norton doesn't make any sense. He just had a fight a month before he fought Norton. He signed for the Norton fight three weeks before the fight. It simply doesn't make sense that Quarry could have got hopelessly out of shape in the 1-week interval between his last fight and signing to fight Norton.
Let's stop pretending that this wasn't a big fight. Big win for Norton. Even bigger than stopping legends like Daniel Dubois and Chazz Witherspoon.
Re: Ken Norton vs. Oleksandr Usyk
Posted: 24 Oct 2023, 14:33
by Ambling Alp II
gilgamesh wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 14:30
Out of curiosity what does everyone consider to be Norton's peak?
I'd say it was around the time of the 3rd Ali fight in 1975.
Their third fight was actually in 1976. He had several great performances from 1973-1978. Take your pick.