BoxRec

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑07 Dec 2023, 18:49 that the result was a split decision, and not a ud, or a stoppage, etc is objective. even the forum game jcs used to run would differentiate between methods of victory when it came to awarding points, with anything split being classed as 'close'. id have to think any good ranking system would go beyond black and white wins and losses

i think fran's current ranking is better than him being in the 500s. that said if you read the ranking thread the situation was one where the rankings were changed to produce a specific outcome (ngganou getting a boost),, and tbf i do see where that its on shaky grounds to make system wide changes in order to change one boxer's ranking

It was really to handle an edge case that had never happened before. No debut boxer ever beat the #1 boxer, but if that ever happened, it's easy to know what to do—the winner would be ranked ahead of the loser. But in the case where a guy with no fights comes within a point of beating the champ--but loses? That's an even weirder case, and it exposes flaws in the system.

There's no way a #500 boxer would ever be able to come within a point of beating the #1 (or #3, whatever) boxer, so obviously a system that ranks him there has an issue.

Computerrank was able to solve that issue in a way that didn't change the current ratings very much otherwise, and even added to his stated goal of always looking to increase the predictive winning % of the system.

Ngannou at #27 is far, far better than Ngannou at #500+, he made the rankings better. So next time an MMA guy come in and almost beats a champion, they'll be fairly ranked from the start

tiny_acres wrote: ↑05 Dec 2023, 22:02 No way can Nganu be rated that high objectively. This is a joke

Yeah he can. When you lose by SD to the #1 fighter, even if you were a debutant or a bum going into the fight, a top 15 ranking would be justified. Ngannou performed more competitively against Fury than Chisora, Whyte, Klitschko, and maybe even Wilder did. Hence, although we only have 1 data point, that data suggests that Ngannou is better than Chisora, Whyte, Klitschko, and Wilder. If he were better, he should be ranked higher. You apparently seem to think that fighters should never earn any credit for recording a close loss, and that's wrong.

To me, the fact that boxrec no longer discloses its rating points is a pretty clear sign that they don't want any transparency so that they can manipulate their rankings any way that they see fit, possibly taking kickbacks for doing so. The rankings / formula always seem to get shaken-up in ways that promote upcoming fights. The fact that Daniel Dubois suddenly became #4-rated right before he fought Usyk is insane when you consider that all he did in his whole life was beat Kevin Larena and Trevor Bryan. Seriously, in what universe can Dubois sanely be ranked 2 slots ahead of Zhang when Zhang is coming off of back-to-back stoppages of Joyce, who stopped Dubois (and Parker and Takam)? It's not as though Joyce lost any other fights between Dubois and Zhang. It's not as though Zhang has lost any fights after the Joyce wins. It's not as though Dubois has recorded some great wins after the Joyce defeat. It makes no sense. On paper, Zhang should be like 15-20 ranks ahead of Dubois. When Wilder and Ruiz's records were active, weren't they ranked below Dubois or something? How the hell is Gassiev ranked #8 after losing to Wallin? Gassiev wasn't even like top 15 before he lost to Wallin, he should be down to like #21 now.

Ever since boxrec abandoned the elo-style way of doing rankings like 5 years ago, it's been way worse. It seems like the top of each division is now packed with undefeated fighters who have a single 3-star win.

Ngannou presents a peculiar problem to any ranking system - that's obvious.
It's not like a non-league side beating a Champions League team in the FA Cup. When that happens, there is already a long form book to show that's a one off freak result.* AND football is inherently designed for fairly regular "one off freak results" in a way that few sports - ESPECIALLY boxing - just aren't .

If you KD the clear (by miles) "#1 or ~2" and lose a razor thin dec then of course you're suddenly ranked - It was an incredible result !
However much Tyson "wasn't taking it seriously/was complacent/in decline/overrated to begin with," one thing was clear.. Ngannou was WAAAY better at boxing than anyone thought.
Tyson's ranking goes down, Ngannou's rockets up.
QED.

No need to see conspiracy and corruption everywhere.
There's enough of it in the real world.

Lackeos wrote: ↑08 Dec 2023, 03:34 To me, the fact that boxrec no longer discloses its rating points is a pretty clear sign that they don't want any transparency so that they can manipulate their rankings any way that they see fit, possibly taking kickbacks for doing so. The rankings / formula always seem to get shaken-up in ways that promote upcoming fights. The fact that Daniel Dubois suddenly became #4-rated right before he fought Usyk is insane when you consider that all he did in his whole life was beat Kevin Larena and Trevor Bryan. Seriously, in what universe can Dubois sanely be ranked 2 slots ahead of Zhang when Zhang is coming off of back-to-back stoppages of Joyce, who stopped Dubois (and Parker and Takam)? It's not as though Joyce lost any other fights between Dubois and Zhang. It's not as though Zhang has lost any fights after the Joyce wins. It's not as though Dubois has recorded some great wins after the Joyce defeat. It makes no sense. On paper, Zhang should be like 15-20 ranks ahead of Dubois. When Wilder and Ruiz's records were active, weren't they ranked below Dubois or something? How the hell is Gassiev ranked #8 after losing to Wallin? Gassiev wasn't even like top 15 before he lost to Wallin, he should be down to like #21 now.

Ever since boxrec abandoned the elo-style way of doing rankings like 5 years ago, it's been way worse. It seems like the top of each division is now packed with undefeated fighters who have a single 3-star win.

Who the f*ck would pay for a good ranking on Boxrec? What difference would it make to your career? Who besides any of us would even be aware of it?

Surely a boxer should be ranked higher if he loses a close fight, than if he gets flattened in a round or loses 108-120. Am I wrong?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Dec 2023, 13:22 Who the f*ck would pay for a good ranking on Boxrec? What difference would it make to your career? Who besides any of us would even be aware of it?

For something like Alvarez vs John Ryder, the difference between Ryder being ranked #2 or #4 could affect the perceived competitiveness and importance of the fight, which could translate to 4,000 extra ppv sales, which is like $400k extra dollars, or $200k after you pay the ppv company. So if you stand to make an extra $200k, then you can afford to bribe boxrec $5k.

There's over 1.2 million registered accounts on boxrec (probably some duplication due to weirdos using alts), but there's plenty of non-users who look at boxrec. I've seen plenty of people talk about how they used to look at the site before they registered an account. And if you google any fighter's name, boxrec is usually the #2 result after wikipedia. So any casual who sees a commercial for Mayweather - De La Hoya, Alvarez - Cotto, Fury - Wilder, Gervonta - Garcia, or whatever is probably going to google the fighters' rankings and land on boxrec. For example, if I google "Tyson Fury ranking", the first thing I see is data presented directly from boxrec's database. So plenty of non-registered casuals can easily discover boxrec rankings in that manner, especially for high dollar fights.

And as far as your career goes, if you can manipulate the public's perception of how good your opponents were, then it could embellish the magnitude of your accomplishments so far, and there's an obvious correlation between accomplishments and drawing power, which means you'll make more money in your future fights. And the more money you make, the more money you have to bribe boxrec with to then bring in even more money.

Wild speculation there.

I doubt very much that a guy being ranked #4 or #2 ever made any difference in the public interest of the fight.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 02:12 Wild speculation there.

I doubt very much that a guy being ranked #4 or #2 ever made any difference in the public interest of the fight.

Yeah it did. I mean, not necessarily being ranked #4 vs 2 on boxrec. But at least in terms of being the real #4 vs 2, it always always always ALWAYS makes a difference in the public interest. It's completely unfathomable that you would think otherwise. You really think that champions make the same amount of money when their opponent is good or bad? Because that theory gets disproven like every weekend, ten times a weekend for the last century. You think Alvarez - Benavidez, Alvarez - Ryder, and a hypothetical Alvarez vs #11 Edgar Berlanga all make the same revenue? You think Bivol - Beterbiev would make the same revenue as Bivol - Dan Azeez? You think Jermell - Tim Tszyu would make the same revenue as Jermell - Brian Mendoza? You think Crawford - Spence 1 would make the same revenue as Crawford - Barrios? You think Mayweather - Pacquiao would make the same revenue as Mayweather - Thurman? You think Ali - Foreman would make the same revenue as Ali - Norton? I could keep doing this for like a thousand years.

As above, What about #4 instead of say #12?

In our recent community rankings refresh, not one voter put Dubois in their top 5 (he got maybe 4 people putting him top 10). @SportsRanking who I gather himself uses a ranking algorithm, didn't even have Dubois in his top #15.

On its own, Boxrec#4 is dubious. In the wider context of looking at the top 10 and how it makes it easier to sway casual fans about the card on the 23rd, these rankings look mightily dodgy. Coincidence (or conspiracy), why leave them like that whilst just making adjustments to "fix" Ngannou's ranking?

Something smells FISHeYes

Finkel wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 08:17 As above, What about #4 instead of say #12?

In our recent community rankings refresh, not one voter put Dubois in their top 5 (he got maybe 4 people putting him top 10). @SportsRanking who I gather himself uses a ranking algorithm, didn't even have Dubois in his top #15.

On its own, Boxrec#4 is dubious. In the wider context of looking at the top 10 and how it makes it easier to sway casual fans about the card on the 23rd, these rankings look mightily dodgy. Coincidence (or conspiracy), why leave them like that whilst just making adjustments to "fix" Ngannou's ranking?

Something smells FISHeYes

Yep, there is more argument for Ngannou being ranked 500 than there is for Dubois to be ranked 4.

The way I interpret it, this new model just protects the hometown fighter more. There's always a bought and paid for judge trying to rescue the hometown fighter with a shockingly wide card in split decision losses. They won't drop down the rankings much even if they lost wide on everyone else's cards. I guess the question is, how often is a split decision wide and how often is it down to being bad scoring?

joshj909 wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 09:56

Finkel wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 08:17 As above, What about #4 instead of say #12?

In our recent community rankings refresh, not one voter put Dubois in their top 5 (he got maybe 4 people putting him top 10). @SportsRanking who I gather himself uses a ranking algorithm, didn't even have Dubois in his top #15.

On its own, Boxrec#4 is dubious. In the wider context of looking at the top 10 and how it makes it easier to sway casual fans about the card on the 23rd, these rankings look mightily dodgy. Coincidence (or conspiracy), why leave them like that whilst just making adjustments to "fix" Ngannou's ranking?

Something smells FISHeYes

Yep, there is more argument for Ngannou being ranked 500 than there is for Dubois to be ranked 4.

The way I interpret it, this new model just protects the hometown fighter more. There's always a bought and paid for judge trying to rescue the hometown fighter with a shockingly wide card in split decision losses. They won't drop down the rankings much even if they lost wide on everyone else's cards. I guess the question is, how often is a split decision wide and how often is it down to being bad scoring?

This is what I love about this forum. People like you that come up with thought provoking points.
Ratings are so argumentative. If you gave us all 10 fighters to rate we probably could not agree on them. Boxrec is rating over 1000 fighters per division and there is no way to make any sense let alone make anyone happy
But it is a fun argument

Finkel wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 08:17 Boxrec#4 is dubious.

His name is spelled Dubois

SportsRatings wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 14:30

Finkel wrote: ↑09 Dec 2023, 08:17 Boxrec#4 is dubious.

His name is spelled Dubois

The ranking is dubious.

Though, I did spell your name wrongly. Apologies

I'm not sure if Agit Kabayel's rating has already been instantly updated after the Makhmudov win that had just recently occurred, but Kabayel is on today's card, and he's ranked #4 at heavyweight now.

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:50 I'm not sure if Agit Kabayel's rating has already been instantly updated after the Makhmudov win that had just recently occurred, but Kabayel is on today's card, and he's ranked #4 at heavyweight now.

Wow, it must have. I think he was probably inactive and not ranked before today.

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:50 I'm not sure if Agit Kabayel's rating has already been instantly updated after the Makhmudov win that had just recently occurred, but Kabayel is on today's card, and he's ranked #4 at heavyweight now.

Lol looks like he's down to #5 now that Dubois won and moved up to #4

SportsRatings wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:55

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:50 I'm not sure if Agit Kabayel's rating has already been instantly updated after the Makhmudov win that had just recently occurred, but Kabayel is on today's card, and he's ranked #4 at heavyweight now.

Lol looks like he's down to #5 now that Dubois won and moved up to #4

Hmm. I guess boxrec ratings are updating instantly now. It used to be that they only recalculated at the end of each day.

I think I'm the one that is mainly responsible for provoking the recent change that saw Ngannou rise up the BoxRec rankings.....

Martin taught me a thing or two or three about ratings/rankings long ago... and since, we've been passing notes. I passed him this one.

What happened in Ngannou/Fury is a fluke event, but one that was absolutely not represented properly by the system.

It wasn't necessarily about Ngannou's #500ish ranking pre-change.. it was about how vast the difference would've been if he won vs. the split loss. A split loss is damn close to a draw, which is damn close to a win... but the results of each were not. Now they are. Problem solved.

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 16:08

SportsRatings wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:55

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:50 I'm not sure if Agit Kabayel's rating has already been instantly updated after the Makhmudov win that had just recently occurred, but Kabayel is on today's card, and he's ranked #4 at heavyweight now.

Lol looks like he's down to #5 now that Dubois won and moved up to #4

Hmm. I guess boxrec ratings are updating instantly now. It used to be that they only recalculated at the end of each day.

Yes, the immediate update is an approximation -- the current system is extremely complicated, so a full update won't happen until overnight (I believe).

The IBO rankings -- which I believe are the only other comprehensive software-based boxing rankings with a pulse... have Ngannou ranked behind only Usyk, Fury, Joshua, and Zhang...

JCS wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 16:37

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 16:08

SportsRatings wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 15:55

Lol looks like he's down to #5 now that Dubois won and moved up to #4

Hmm. I guess boxrec ratings are updating instantly now. It used to be that they only recalculated at the end of each day.

Yes, the immediate update is an approximation -- the current system is extremely complicated, so a full update won't happen until overnight (I believe).

Yeah I was gonna say this, I understand that WHR allows for "updates" but not official ones until they are run overnight

Note that Bivol wasn't active and wasn't ranked, now he just jumped in at #1 LHW

SportsRatings wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 17:27

JCS wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 16:37

Lackeos wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 16:08
Hmm. I guess boxrec ratings are updating instantly now. It used to be that they only recalculated at the end of each day.

Yes, the immediate update is an approximation -- the current system is extremely complicated, so a full update won't happen until overnight (I believe).

Yeah I was gonna say this, I understand that WHR allows for "updates" but not official ones until they are run overnight

Note that Bivol wasn't active and wasn't ranked, now he just jumped in at #1 LHW

Was probably #1 before the fight.. but was being hidden due to being inactive.

JCS wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 17:32

SportsRatings wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 17:27

JCS wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023, 16:37

Yes, the immediate update is an approximation -- the current system is extremely complicated, so a full update won't happen until overnight (I believe).

Yeah I was gonna say this, I understand that WHR allows for "updates" but not official ones until they are run overnight

Note that Bivol wasn't active and wasn't ranked, now he just jumped in at #1 LHW

Was probably #1 before the fight.. but was being hidden due to being inactive.

Yeah that's what I assumed. Maybe #2 though....too bad we can't see the rating values any more!