Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 21 Aug 2024, 12:04
by JamesPhilips
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑20 Aug 2024, 20:24
the uzbeks boxed really well tbf, woulda won several golds even with more a professional style of judging. dusmatov, khalmakov, and jalolov all have some nice kos in high level international bouts, and it was another uzbek (their 91kg gold medal winner) who was the closest of anyone to beating jalaolov over the last several years, seriously hurting and almost stopping him before being kod himself.
the uzbeks do have a box and move style generally, but they throw hard explosive shots, it's not the slappy tappy flicky stuff
Have you got a link to a vid of this fight? Sounds good!
But I think you mean this fight, which is a SD win not KO for Jalolov?
JamesPhilips wrote: ↑19 Aug 2024, 18:42
When did the Japanese scene become so successful? They have so many world champs. Was it about 10 years or so ago the Japanese boxers started producing so many word class fighters?
Japan has long been a major boxing country TBF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_J ... _champions) what's changed in recent years is that the JBC have recognised the WBO and IBF (a change in the last 10 years or so), meaning they aren't just chasing WBA and WBC titles, which gives them 4 titles to fight for, and opens up more opportunities. Their amateur system (a very strong one at university level) has also developed "pro-ready" fighters, many of which faced each other in the amateurs (the likes of Tanaka, Teraji, Kyoguchi, Inoue, Ioka etc) allowing them to be moved rapidly.
Thanks for the info mate I didn’t know that about IBF and WBO.
Boxrec P4P all time ratings are a bit odd sometimes but there are a lot of current and recent fighters in their P4p
Unsurprisingly those rankings are...as odd as any others.
Some of the obviously under-rated ones using that are:
Fighting Harada - at worst he should be #3 (many will say #1 or #2)
Masao Oba should be higher - at worst top 10 (arguably top #5 even with his untimely death)
Jiro Watanabe and Ebihara feel a bit low as well and probably would scrape in the top 10
Yoko Gushiken at #102 is fornicating hilariously bad (you'll struggle to find a world ranking of anyone in any country)
Some of the over-rated guys (inversely mostly modern fighters) include
Seigo Yuri Akui at #22, Yabuki at #23, Abe at #24, Rikiishi at #25, Nishida at #26 (though I think he has the potential to make a mark on the legit top 30), Yoshino at #27, Shimoda #32, Oguni #33, Sato #34, Ishida #37 - sorta funny how they are all "grouped" in the way they are
Also sort of funny how the Uzbek boxing system can be traced to Sidney Jackson (a remarkable guy and his significance isn't downplayed by those who know about Uzbek boxing history)
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑20 Aug 2024, 20:24
the uzbeks boxed really well tbf, woulda won several golds even with more a professional style of judging. dusmatov, khalmakov, and jalolov all have some nice kos in high level international bouts, and it was another uzbek (their 91kg gold medal winner) who was the closest of anyone to beating jalaolov over the last several years, seriously hurting and almost stopping him before being kod himself.
the uzbeks do have a box and move style generally, but they throw hard explosive shots, it's not the slappy tappy flicky stuff
Have you got a link to a vid of this fight? Sounds good!
But I think you mean this fight, which is a SD win not KO for Jalolov?
actually it was another southpaw , very similar in style and dimension to mullojonov who did it, they carry themselves so similar i had thought it was mullo. my bad. interestingly, translating comments from jalolov's match vs mullojonov, a familial relation between the uzbeks is hinted at, and they both have 'ugli' as part of their name. not sure if they are indeed related or not
russian ilya kvaskinov is the russian boxer who gave jalo a fright. had jalolov down and then a standing 8, then jalolov comes back and staggers him badly and wins a decision. fight was in 2018, year before jalo famously flattened torrez. he fought in the tournament final 2 days later and won by stoppage.
heres a highlight
and the whole fight, craziness starts just before 2:30. tbh, jalolov very fortunate not to have had that called off with how cautious am refs are. most probably wouldve stopped his opponent too with how wobbly he was. quite something for a fight like this to go the distance in the ams. compare these to the laughable stoppage jalo got vs teremoana their first fight
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Japan has long been a major boxing country TBF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_J ... _champions) what's changed in recent years is that the JBC have recognised the WBO and IBF (a change in the last 10 years or so), meaning they aren't just chasing WBA and WBC titles, which gives them 4 titles to fight for, and opens up more opportunities. Their amateur system (a very strong one at university level) has also developed "pro-ready" fighters, many of which faced each other in the amateurs (the likes of Tanaka, Teraji, Kyoguchi, Inoue, Ioka etc) allowing them to be moved rapidly.
Thanks for the info mate I didn’t know that about IBF and WBO.
Boxrec P4P all time ratings are a bit odd sometimes but there are a lot of current and recent fighters in their P4p
Unsurprisingly those rankings are...as odd as any others.
Some of the obviously under-rated ones using that are:
Fighting Harada - at worst he should be #3 (many will say #1 or #2)
Masao Oba should be higher - at worst top 10 (arguably top #5 even with his untimely death)
Jiro Watanabe and Ebihara feel a bit low as well and probably would scrape in the top 10
Yoko Gushiken at #102 is fornicating hilariously bad (you'll struggle to find a world ranking of anyone in any country)
Some of the over-rated guys (inversely mostly modern fighters) include
Seigo Yuri Akui at #22, Yabuki at #23, Abe at #24, Rikiishi at #25, Nishida at #26 (though I think he has the potential to make a mark on the legit top 30), Yoshino at #27, Shimoda #32, Oguni #33, Sato #34, Ishida #37 - sorta funny how they are all "grouped" in the way they are
Also sort of funny how the Uzbek boxing system can be traced to Sidney Jackson (a remarkable guy and his significance isn't downplayed by those who know about Uzbek boxing history)
Thanks mate. Wow. You really know your Japanese boxing
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑20 Aug 2024, 20:24
the uzbeks boxed really well tbf, woulda won several golds even with more a professional style of judging. dusmatov, khalmakov, and jalolov all have some nice kos in high level international bouts, and it was another uzbek (their 91kg gold medal winner) who was the closest of anyone to beating jalaolov over the last several years, seriously hurting and almost stopping him before being kod himself.
the uzbeks do have a box and move style generally, but they throw hard explosive shots, it's not the slappy tappy flicky stuff
Have you got a link to a vid of this fight? Sounds good!
But I think you mean this fight, which is a SD win not KO for Jalolov?
actually it was another southpaw , very similar in style and dimension to mullojonov who did it, they carry themselves so similar i had thought it was mullo. my bad. interestingly, translating comments from jalolov's match vs mullojonov, a familial relation between the uzbeks is hinted at, and they both have 'ugli' as part of their name. not sure if they are indeed related or not
russian ilya kvaskinov is the russian boxer who gave jalo a fright. had jalolov down and then a standing 8, then jalolov comes back and staggers him badly and wins a decision. fight was in 2018, year before jalo famously flattened torrez. he fought in the tournament final 2 days later and won by stoppage.
heres a highlight
and the whole fight, craziness starts just before 2:30. tbh, jalolov very fortunate not to have had that called off with how cautious am refs are. most probably wouldve stopped his opponent too with how wobbly he was. quite something for a fight like this to go the distance in the ams. compare these to the laughable stoppage jalo got vs teremoana their first fight
Cheers mate thanks.
Love threads like this. So much knowledge on this forum
Watched - never realised Jalolov had been over like this!!!
I’m guessing he was 24, which is young for a heavy these days but still. (Well 24 is a heavyweight foetus if you’re Hughie Fury but you know what I mean )
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
1683140 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2024, 03:42
Once a dominant force in amateur boxing, Cuba has experienced a decline in recent years due to factors such as economic challenges and defections of top talent. Wordle Unlimited
The decline of USA and Cuban dominance in amateur boxing especially is also due to the rest of the world upping their game and their boxing programmes. Obviously in the pros too we have the former eastern bloc fighters now turning over and turning the pro game upside down. The rest of the world has caught up with Cuba and the USA. That is all
All the big Americans rather try out other sports like basketball. Boxing is long gone now in the US.
USA have far more current pro heavyweights than any other country.
All countries have sports more popular than boxing
It's just an EXCUSE, a very laughable excuse that has been debunked many times
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
The decline of USA and Cuban dominance in amateur boxing especially is also due to the rest of the world upping their game and their boxing programmes. Obviously in the pros too we have the former eastern bloc fighters now turning over and turning the pro game upside down. The rest of the world has caught up with Cuba and the USA. That is all
All the big Americans rather try out other sports like basketball. Boxing is long gone now in the US.
USA have far more current pro heavyweights than any other country.
All countries have sports more popular than boxing
It's just an EXCUSE, a very laughable excuse that has been debunked many times
Right. It’s an awful argument
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 21 Aug 2024, 18:34
by margaret thatcher
ya i dont totally buy it
maybe theres some impact there, but do people really think , say, mike tyson wouldnt have become a boxer or pursued it seriously had nba, etc been more popular back then? he was raised in a unique situation to be a boxer and that was going to be what it was no matter what other sports were doing
muhammad ali started boxing cuz he wanted to beat up whoever stole his bike, his boxing origin had nothing to do with him deciding boxing had more limelight and money than say football, nor would playing baseball, basketball, or football teach him how to fight
joe frazier went to a boxing gym to lose weight and get fit, not because he decided boxing would be more lucrative than basketball or football
larry holmes by accounts was a rowdy youth who got into boxing as a way to provide a healthier outlet than street fighting, it again had nothing to do with what sport was the most popular and had the biggest contracts. it turned out he was pretty good so he pursued it
would usyk not have been a boxer if the nfl was bigger in ukraine or something? does point guard/quarterback usyk exist in the same fantasy world of american heavyweight greats in the nba/nfl/mlb/etc?
the way most kids get into a sport seriously isnt by sitting down and doing an economic analysis of what their potential earning prospects are and how famous they might become if they reach the top
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 21 Aug 2024, 22:08
by Boxing Prospect
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Aug 2024, 18:34
the way most kids get into a sport seriously isnt by sitting down and doing an economic analysis of what their potential earning prospects are and how famous they might become if they reach the top
Agree with all BUT this bit, at least in regards to the US, where American football and Basketball in particular could lead to scholarships. If you're from a poor background but being offered the chance to have funded university education that MIGHT play into it a bit, and even if you fail to have the fame and success at the top you've got a safety net to rely on. Boxing doesn't have the equivalent to a scholarship system anywhere (as far as I'm aware, though perhaps Uzbekistan might, and Japanese universities do have a strong boxing league system with a very high level of competion).
If you're "kinda good" at a sport that offers scholarships, you might be pushed to stay with them to get the education, rather than offered a chance by a parent to go to the gym and get punched in the head as a teenager.
The examples you gave are great 1 off examples, and certainly don't imagine scholarships and education were on the mind of any of them. But for the top athletes in the US the option of getting an education and going with one of the other sports might "thin the pool" so to speak, on the none one off stories.
Although the US has more heavyweights than anyone else, the cream of the crop of the athletic ones may have been stuck on then Football/basketball + education line from 13/14 rather than the boxing gym at the same time. The ones that head to boxing gym being the ones who weren't scouted for college (so picked up boxing late and are a few years behind in their development of the sport) or the ones who lack that elite level athleticism (or are simply too lazy or fat to fight at 175/CW)
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 21 Aug 2024, 22:37
by margaret thatcher
i hear ya, but there just too many cases of american hw greats that dont fall in line with the 'athletic dude making an economic analysis' argument for me to be convinced of it being more than a minor-moderate factor at best. take even just two of the hws i named (and there are plenty of others), sprinkle them across the last 3 decades, and that would massively increase the quality of the american hw scene
as long as other sports exist, they will take competitors from each other, yes, but that's always happened. tbh, for me just as much or more a factor would be that boxers from the soviet union, a massive block of countries that were elite for decades at hw in the ams, are much more supported today in their pro endevours. so many absolute studs from there who never boxed professional.
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
JamesPhilips wrote: ↑19 Aug 2024, 18:42
When did the Japanese scene become so successful? They have so many world champs. Was it about 10 years or so ago the Japanese boxers started producing so many word class fighters?
Japan has long been a major boxing country TBF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_J ... _champions) what's changed in recent years is that the JBC have recognised the WBO and IBF (a change in the last 10 years or so), meaning they aren't just chasing WBA and WBC titles, which gives them 4 titles to fight for, and opens up more opportunities. Their amateur system (a very strong one at university level) has also developed "pro-ready" fighters, many of which faced each other in the amateurs (the likes of Tanaka, Teraji, Kyoguchi, Inoue, Ioka etc) allowing them to be moved rapidly.
Boxing news have a Japanese issue, and it’s a good one. Mark Butcher mentions this, something I know nothing about. Anyone have more info?
Mark Butcher wrote:When the Japan Boxing Association launched a national Under-15 championship in 2008 (now called the Junior Champion League), it sparked a seismic shift in the country's fighting fortunes, with the event proving a launchpad for the pro stars of tomorrow.
Inoue was an inaugural winner at that tournament 16 years ago and, for those keen eyes watching, it was apparent that Japan had someone special, a phenomenon, on their hands.
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 01 Sep 2024, 13:21
by magnus
The German scene appears drastically different to the 1990s/early 2000s - used to have some big shows, I'd struggle to name three current fighters based in Germany.
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 02 Sep 2024, 10:07
by ordsalloriginator
magnus wrote: ↑01 Sep 2024, 13:21
The German scene appears drastically different to the 1990s/early 2000s - used to have some big shows, I'd struggle to name three current fighters based in Germany.
It's definitely gone downhill A LOT. In hindsight Universum (Klaus-Peter Kohl) were an extremely strong promotional company, that are badly missed in german boxing. They used to sign loads of talent from ex Soviet Union countries and move them to Germany. The current german promoters hardly do that.
But surely you know more than three or more ., c'mon :P
Felix Sturm and Marco Huck are still fighting. Noel Gevor (aka Noriar Mikaelyan, current WBC cruiserweight champion, who lived in germany since he was 4 years old), Agit Kabayel (heavyweight contender),Vincenzo Gualtieri (recent WBO Champion), Oleksandr Zakhozhyi & Abass Baraou (current European Champions), Jack Culcay, Tyron Zeuge, Tom Schwarz, Mourad Aliev, Sebastien Formella,
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 02 Sep 2024, 12:52
by magnus
Haha - I had Zeuge and Culcay in my head, completely forgot Kabayel to be fair. Can't believe Sturm is still going.
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 02 Sep 2024, 15:28
by JamesPhilips
magnus wrote: ↑02 Sep 2024, 12:52
Haha - I had Zeuge and Culcay in my head, completely forgot Kabayel to be fair. Can't believe Sturm is still going.
Strum is 45, so if anyone is using him as an example that German boxing is in good health, I suggest it proves the opposite
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 20 Nov 2024, 13:39
by margaret thatcher
thailand no world champs anymore
Re: countries with big changes in their boxing scene
Posted: 20 Nov 2024, 14:29
by veriton
I was lucky enough to see pongsaklek wonjongkam and poonsawat kratingdaengym box in thailand. They were truly world class but the thais were also very good at defending regional sanctioning body fights and getting up world rankings before usually losing a world title challenge overseas. This could happen as the live boxing shows were basically tv adverts for sponsors or local bigwigs, with zero ticket sales so free attendance, in makeshift venues in strange locations and all on weekday afternoons. I think a shift in tv priorities has meant these slots do not happen so frequently so there arent as many opportunities for boxers to stay busy. Even when pongsaklek was champ he'd regular do a televised six or eight rounder to stay busy.
I didn’t know that about IBF and WBO. 
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