BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 16:52

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Sep 2024, 17:46 It was Marvelous worst performance ever on film.

That's because Sugar Ray Leonard was in the opposite corner.

Put Tommy Hearns on the other side. That would not happen to Tommy. Marvelous only wanted a multi million dollar fight. And he got it. It was the only multi million dollar fight that he was waiting for. He wasn't going to fight if there wasn't millions involved. That's why Marvelous was fighting one fight a year since 1985.

Yes Leoanrd got some big paydays. Do you know that was? People wanted to see him fight. There is also something called inflation. Yes Leoanrd got $40,000 for his first fight. mote than ali. Ali got more than Louis. Louis got more than Demspey got for his first fight. Many guys since Leonard got more than $40,,, for their first fight since 1977.

Love the crybaby excuses about enlarged ring and thumbless gloves. Duran did not have to fight in a larger ring. He agreed to it. He was th champ and held all the cards. Hagler and Howard agreed to the thumbless gloves. How does that help Leonard win the fight? Leonard had to fight with them as well. Hagler agreed to a 12-round fight. It was the same for both guys. Leonard won fair and square.
Hagler wanted to fight Leonard desperately. this wasn't all about the #. Hagler was already set for life before he fought Leonard.

As for the guys who beat 4 or more guys in the Top 50.
No Battalino didn't beat 4. The most is 2. and that is pushing it. Kid Chocolate and Panama Al Brown.
Marciano only beat three- Louis, Charles, and Moore. And that is being generous. Louis was 37 and way over the hill. Moore was not great at hw.
So, we have Robinson, McLarnin, Ali, and Charles. There are a few others. Less than 10 guys did what Leonard was able to do.

Thomas "The Hitman" Hearns won outright. He put Sugar Ray twice on the floor. End of story. You have to judge the whole fights. there were 10 other rounds. Klitschko got decked 3x against Peter and got the decision. nobody questions. Bentiez got decked 3x vs Weston and got a draw. Fury got decked 2x against Wilder and got a draw. Louis got decked 2x vs Walcott and got the decision.

Duran, Hearns, and Hagler did not beat as many Top 10 contenders as Leonard. on their way up. That is a fact.

Barkley was younger and taller when he fought Duran. He was a very beatable fighter. A nice win for an old guy. That is as far as you reasonably go with this.
No idea what in the world you are talking about saying that Saldivar was off for 3 years and beat an ATG. He was never off for that long and never beat an ATG.
Jeff Fencih? You are seriously comparing beating a 49-year-old Azumah Nelson who had not fought in 10 years with beating a 32-year-old Marvin Hagler. Wow.
Face it. There is nothing like Leonard beating Hagler in boxing history. Nothing.

Leonard is one of the top 10 ever. Duran, Hagler, and Hearns are not quite there. You like the other 3 Leonard. That is the way it goes sometimes. I don't like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Lebron James. I still rank them in the Top NBA players ever. That is the way it is sometimes.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Sep 2024, 10:17 Yes Leoanrd got some big paydays. Do you know that was? People wanted to see him fight. There is also something called inflation. Yes Leoanrd got $40,000 for his first fight. mote than ali. Ali got more than Louis. Louis got more than Demspey got for his first fight. Many guys since Leonard got more than $40,,, for their first fight since 1977.

As far as I am concerned, that inflation thing is the best that you could come up with? What about after Leonard? What other boxers made $40,000 in their first fight? Using Ali, Louis and Dempsey were not good examples.

Love the crybaby excuses about enlarged ring and thumbless gloves. Duran did not have to fight in a larger ring. He agreed to it. He was th champ and held all the cards. Hagler and Howard agreed to the thumbless gloves. How does that help Leonard win the fight? Leonard had to fight with them as well. Hagler agreed to a 12-round fight. It was the same for both guys. Leonard won fair and square.
Hagler wanted to fight Leonard desperately. this wasn't all about the #. Hagler was already set for life before he fought Leonard.

When the leeway falls on Sugar Ray, nobody wants to say nothing. A great fighter? Yes. Did he need all those outside sources and leeway? Not at all. But the proof is there. I have never seen a fighter that got much more help for a boxer than Sugar Ray Leonard.

Duran wasn't even around in the negotiations. Do you really think that a smart fighter like Duran would approve and sign for a fight right away? Do you? Ain't no fighter would. But, Duran's management team, led by Carlos Eleta, his manager, got greedy and that what happened. He got offered $8 million dollars behind Duran's back. Money he thought that he would never see again. He didn't care about Duran's best interests but his. And he BETRAYED his own fighter.

The ring was enlarged 21' x 21'. A ridiculous size for a ring. But, sure because it was their American Golden Boy, they went along with it for a win at all costs. It was pretty NATIONALISTIC to say the least.

As for the guys who beat 4 or more guys in the Top 50.
No Battalino didn't beat 4. The most is 2. and that is pushing it. Kid Chocolate and Panama Al Brown.
Marciano only beat three- Louis, Charles, and Moore. And that is being generous. Louis was 37 and way over the hill. Moore was not great at hw.
So, we have Robinson, McLarnin, Ali, and Charles. There are a few others. Less than 10 guys did what Leonard was able to do.

Wilfred Benitez could never be top 50. Jimmy McLarnin beat 5 top 100 pound per pound great boxers. Why nobody puts him in the top 20 at least? Battling Battalino beat 4: Kid Chocolate, Freddie Miller, Panama Al Brown and Fidel LaBarba. The point is that Sugar Ray was not the only one to do so.

Thomas "The Hitman" Hearns won outright. He put Sugar Ray twice on the floor. End of story. You have to judge the whole fights. there were 10 other rounds. Klitschko got decked 3x against Peter and got the decision. nobody questions. Bentiez got decked 3x vs Weston and got a draw. Fury got decked 2x against Wilder and got a draw. Louis got decked 2x vs Walcott and got the decision.

That's irrelevant of what we're talking about. Brice Curry got robbed against Wilfred Benitez. Ken Norton got robbed twice against Muhammad Ali. Thomas Hearns got robbed against Sugar Ray Leonard.

Duran, Hearns, and Hagler did not beat as many Top 10 contenders as Leonard. on their way up. That is a fact.

Barkley was younger and taller when he fought Duran. He was a very beatable fighter. A nice win for an old guy. That is as far as you reasonably go with this.
No idea what in the world you are talking about saying that Saldivar was off for 3 years and beat an ATG. He was never off for that long and never beat an ATG.
Jeff Fencih? You are seriously comparing beating a 49-year-old Azumah Nelson who had not fought in 10 years with beating a 32-year-old Marvin Hagler. Wow.
Face it. There is nothing like Leonard beating Hagler in boxing history. Nothing.

Leonard is one of the top 10 ever. Duran, Hagler, and Hearns are not quite there. You like the other 3 Leonard. That is the way it goes sometimes. I don't like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Lebron James. I still rank them in the Top NBA players ever. That is the way it is sometimes.

Duran beat Hiroshi Kobayashi and Ernesto Marcel on the way for the title. Two guys that were better than Randy Shields, Pete Ranzany, Floyd Mayweather and Andy Prices of the world. Better quality fighters. So, the edge goes to Duran.

Marvelous level of opponents on the way to the title was better than Sugar Ray's. Everybody knows that. Willie Monroe, Bobby Watts, Sugar Ray Seals, Eugene Hart, Marcos Geraldo, were better boxers. Hagler fought in Philadelphia caves of boxers that nobody wanted to fight. He had to prove himself with those guys. So, the edge goes to Marvelous.

Hearns opposition going to the title was no different than Sugar Ray's. They were in the same level coming up. Angle Espada, Saensak Muagsurin, Harold Weston, Bruce Curry, and Eddie Gazo. Wait a minute! The edge goes to The Hitman also.

Vicente Saldivar had two years off. He beat Jose Legra. And later beat Johnny Famechon. Fantastic boxers. What are you talking about?

And for the last. A guy that only had 7 fights in his last 15 years of career could never be top 10. That's UNREALISTIC and beyond comprehension. There were many guys that I don't consider top 10 and they were better than Leonard: Benny Leonard, Archie Moore, Joe Gans, Willie Pep, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Johnson, Tony Canzoneri and Carlos Monzon to say the least.

I rate Leonard at #18. And that's a right ranking. The highest that he could go is probably 15th. So from 15th to 25 is the right place for him.

Umm no.
-The only fighters that Hearns beat before he got a title shot that was in the top 10 was Espada and Clay.
-Duran has zero. Neither Koybashi or Marcel were ranked at the time.
-Hagler only had Mike Colbert and Briscoe. Watts, Hart, Seales, etc were not in the top 10 when Hagler beat them.

"Vicente Saldivar had two years off. He beat Jose Legra. And later beat Johnny Famechon. Fantastic boxers. What are you talking about?"
What am I talking about? Saldivar was not off nearly long enough. No idea why you brought up Famechon, Saldivar fought him less than a year after Legra. . Why are you being so dense about this?
Face. You hate Leonard. So you don't rate him a s high as you should.

Have already responded to most your other nonsense and am not going to again.

Sometimes the guys you don't like are better than those that you like. Deal with it.

What was Clyde Gray ranked when he fought Hearns ?

Good catch. I edited my previous post. He was in the top 10. That's 2 for Hearns.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 14:44 Umm no.
-The only fighters that Hearns beat before he got a title shot that was in the top 10 was Espada and Clay.
-Duran has zero. Neither Koybashi or Marcel were ranked at the time.
-Hagler only had Mike Colbert and Briscoe. Watts, Hart, Seales, etc were not in the top 10 when Hagler beat them.

So, Randy Shields, Pete Ranzany and Andy Price were better than Hearns' opponents like Bruce Curry, Angel Espada, Saensak Muagsurin and Harold Weston? I don't think so!

Marcel and Hiroshi Kobayashi for Duran were clearly better than the Randy Shields, Pete Ranzany and Andy Prices. They were not world beaters. They never became champions. Marcel and Hiroshi Kobayashi became world champions. They were better even if they weren't ranked.

Marvelous opponents? Even if they weren't ranked, nobody in the top ten wanted to fight them. They were the modern day Murderer's Row: Eugene "Cyclone" Hart, Willie Monroe, Bennie Briscoe, Bobby Watts, were clearly better than the Pete Ranzanys and Randy Shields of the world. Is that the best that you can come up with?

"Vicente Saldivar had two years off. He beat Jose Legra. And later beat Johnny Famechon. Fantastic boxers. What are you talking about?"
What am I talking about? Saldivar was not off nearly long enough. No idea why you brought up Famechon, Saldivar fought him less than a year after Legra. . Why are you being so dense about this?
Face. You hate Leonard. So you don't rate him a s high as you should.

So what if he wasn't active long enough? What is the record? If you are inactive, you are inactive. Both Saldivar and Sugar Ray were not different from one another. Saldivar beat some fantastic boxers. Johnny Famechon and Jose Legra. Saldivar was off for two years. Leonard was off for 3. So one year more makes it better? [/quote]

Have already responded to most your other nonsense and am not going to again.

Sometimes the guys you don't like are better than those that you like. Deal with it.

No no no The proof is in the pudding. Sugar Ray Leonard was a great boxer. One of my favorite boxers. But, we got to call it like it is.

Top ten? No
Top fifteen? Perhaps
Top 20? Yes and is pretty fair enough.

Bert Randolph Sugar got him ranked at #45. Now that's ridiculous!

So all of these guys that you mentioned Duran, Hagler, and Hearns fought that ranked should have been ranked. All of them. They were all ducked and should have ranked. Good to know.

elmer said "So what if he wasn't active long enough? What is the record? If you are inactive, you are inactive. Both Saldivar and Sugar Ray were not different from one another. Saldivar beat some fantastic boxers. Johnny Famechon and Jose Legra. Saldivar was off for two years. Leonard was off for 3. So one year more makes it better? [/quote]

That is the whole point. nobody else, (including Saldivar) were off as long as Leonard and then beat an ATG without any tuneups. That is the record. Leonard has it. Deal with it.

Being off for 2 years and 11 months is harder to come back from than 2 year and 10 months. The longer you are off, the harder it is to comeback.

Secondly. Saldivar did not beat an ATG. Jose Legra is not an ATG. No idea why you keep bringing up Johnny Famechon. Wasn't an ATG and Saldivar was only off for 10 months when he fought him.
Marvin Halger was an ATG.
My point was that no one has ever came back from as long as Leonard was off and beat an ATG.
Why on earth this is so hard to for you to understand is unbelievable.
Get it through your head. Not really that complicated.

I am interested in ranking fighters where they should be, whether I like them, don't like them or somewhere in the middle.

But yes, as long as you have no interest in rating Leonard where should be simply because you don't like him.
You once said that Leonard was not a real fighter. That says it all.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Sep 2024, 11:11 So all of these guys that you mentioned Duran, Hagler, and Hearns fought that ranked should have been ranked. All of them. They were all ducked and should have ranked. Good to know.

So Randy Shields and Pete Ranzany were better than Bobby Watts, Bennie Briscoe, Ernesto Marcel, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Angel Espada, Eddie Gazo and Saensak Muagsurin even though these guys weren't ranked? What is your criteria?

elmer said "So what if he wasn't active long enough? What is the record? If you are inactive, you are inactive. Both Saldivar and Sugar Ray were not different from one another. Saldivar beat some fantastic boxers. Johnny Famechon and Jose Legra. Saldivar was off for two years. Leonard was off for 3. So one year more makes it better?


That is the whole point. nobody else, (including Saldivar) were off as long as Leonard and then beat an ATG without any tuneups. That is the record. Leonard has it. Deal with it.

Being off for 2 years and 11 months is harder to come back from than 2 year and 10 months. The longer you are off, the harder it is to comeback.

Secondly. Saldivar did not beat an ATG. Jose Legra is not an ATG. No idea why you keep bringing up Johnny Famechon. Wasn't an ATG and Saldivar was only off for 10 months when he fought him.
Marvin Halger was an ATG.
My point was that no one has ever came back from as long as Leonard was off and beat an ATG.
Why on earth this is so hard to for you to understand is unbelievable.
Get it through your head. Not really that complicated.

George Foreman was off for ten years and he won back a piece of the World Heavyweight Title. Does that make it better than Sugar Ray's comeback in 3 years? Oh, I see. Michael Moorer was not an all-time great. Neither were Johnny Famechon nor Jose Legra. You can ask any English man or any Mexican from this forum who were Legra and Famechon. Like if those two were scrubs.

Excuse me? I think that you're missing the point, my brother. Vicente Saldivar was off for 2 years. That ain't enough? So if he were 4 years off, makes it better than Sugar Ray's? The point was that both were off for a long time. One had 3 years. The other one 2. So the one that had 3 years was better by one year? What kind of criteria is that? Who made that criteria? Is it valid? We got to ask the complete forum. Saldivar had to fight two fantastic fighters to be champion again. Leonard just had to fight one. Foreman had to fight 30 fighters. What is the criteria?

Because I could say that Sugar Ray had help....there we go! LEEEEWAAAYYY! He was the cash cow. He had the outside help and support from the promoters. Saldivar nor Foreman didn't had to ask for THUMBLESS GLOVES and bigger ring to run. Saldivar nor Foreman didn't had to dictate the number of rounds. Saldivar nor Foreman had the clout. Leonard had it, and plenty!

Plus, Legra nor Famechon were fading. Marvelous was.

Even the great Elder Jofre retired for 3 years, came back and became champion again. He had much more fights than Leonard when he came back. That's more impressive than Sugar Ray's win over fading Marvelous.

I am interested in ranking fighters where they should be, whether I like them, don't like them or somewhere in the middle.

But yes, as long as you have no interest in rating Leonard where should be simply because you don't like him.
You once said that Leonard was not a real fighter. That says it all.

In a way, he wasn't a real fighter. A real fighter doesn't need stipulations. Sugar Ray Leonard is or was the ONLY FIGHTER IN BOXING HISTORY that had more LEEWAY, outside help from promoters, and media sources than ANY OTHER BOXER IN THE HISTORY OF BOXING! That's the truth. That's a fact. And we got to deal with it.

Was he an extraordinary fighter? Yes
Did he need all the outside help and leeway? No
Did he got the leeway and support? Yes!

Facts are facts, bro!

elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2024, 23:47
Was he an extraordinary fighter? Yes
Did he need all the outside help and leeway? No
Did he got the leeway and support? Yes!

Facts are facts, bro!

It might be nitpicking, but those aren't facts, they are opinions.

According to elmer, Leonard was an extraordinary fighter. However, he wasn't real fighter. Makes perfect sense.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Sep 2024, 14:59 According to elmer, Leonard was an extraordinary fighter. However, he wasn't real fighter. Makes perfect sense.

Holding my laugh in.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Sep 2024, 09:46

elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2024, 23:47
Was he an extraordinary fighter? Yes
Did he need all the outside help and leeway? No
Did he got the leeway and support? Yes!

Facts are facts, bro!

It might be nitpicking, but those aren't facts, they are opinions.

Opinions? You was not living around that era, bruh!

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Sep 2024, 14:59 According to elmer, Leonard was an extraordinary fighter. However, he wasn't real fighter. Makes perfect sense.

In a way, he wasn't. He had all the leeway. What fighter in boxing history had that kind of support and leeway like Sugar Ray Leonard had?

Let's be realistic.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Sep 2024, 09:36

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Sep 2024, 09:46

elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2024, 23:47
Was he an extraordinary fighter? Yes
Did he need all the outside help and leeway? No
Did he got the leeway and support? Yes!

Facts are facts, bro!

It might be nitpicking, but those aren't facts, they are opinions.

Opinions? You was not living around that era, bruh!

They are opinions. A fact is saying Sugar Ray Leonard was WBC and WBA Welterweight champion. An opinion is Sugar Ray Leonard was an extraordinary fighter.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Sep 2024, 09:37

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑29 Sep 2024, 14:59 According to elmer, Leonard was an extraordinary fighter. However, he wasn't real fighter. Makes perfect sense.

In a way, he wasn't. He had all the leeway. What fighter in boxing history had that kind of support and leeway like Sugar Ray Leonard had?

Let's be realistic.

Mayweather was worse. Jones was worse.

No doubt that in Ray's second career he called the shots. But since then the big US name in the sport has sought bigger and bigger advantages. Nobody has loaded the dice more in their favour than Mayweather.

Ray is a Corinthian by comparison.