BoxRec

si7dog7 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:43

mickey1975 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:33
I said years ago that was an insult to Big Frank. Witherspoon, Tyson and Lennox would have all destroyed AJ much quicker and McCall would have been a problem with his chin.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that, let's not forget, Jumbo Cummings had Bruno all over the gaff in the first scare of his career.

Bruno had very poor survivial instincts, even the ghost of McCall almost had him out of there.

Lewis was not in his prime when he faced Frank, and that was arguably the best performance ever by Bruno, he has a lot of wounded pride going into the fight

Got to disagree James.
Frank was too brave for his own good.
I’m not saying he was so great. I’m saying he is so derided. So much so that folks on websites mock him.
No. Frank was very good. In an era of proper fighters.
How would AJ fare against Tim, Lennox, Tyson? Against Bonecrusher Smith.
Tbh I think The Late Gary Mason takes his head off.
Respect James. But I disagree mate

That's fine mate, noting wrong with disagreeing.

Smith, I think Smith was just a big lump really, big puncher, similar to Dubois, but bigger and stronger if anything.

Tim Witherspoon blew hot and cold, good fighter, cagey, but also not in the best of shape often.

Lennox is cut above everybody around right now.

Mason, interesting call, Mason had a hell of a chin, and serious firepower, easy to see him flattening AJ down the stretch.

Frank was very brave, but when he got hurt, he turned into a statue, would just stand there shipping punishment.

A peak AJ, maybe just a slight favourite over Frank in his prime, not a lot in it for me,

As I said earlier, Joshua would be lucky to crack top 20 of all time, and probably lower, as he only has a handful of good wins in a pretty weak era.

joshj909 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 07:08 Joshua's tactics for next time, with the help of 'Back to basics' Ben, should be hands up at all times, don't panic when someone throws a punch at you, throw combinations, throw counter punches. I have to say I think this loss was the worst AJ has looked both defensively and offensively, arguably ever.

Will it work? Probably not because they'll probably come into the fight as arrogant as they came into the first one.

I agree with this pretty much entirely.

Joshua looked awful from the off.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 11:45

si7dog7 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:43

Yeah, I'm not sure about that, let's not forget, Jumbo Cummings had Bruno all over the gaff in the first scare of his career.

Bruno had very poor survivial instincts, even the ghost of McCall almost had him out of there.

Lewis was not in his prime when he faced Frank, and that was arguably the best performance ever by Bruno, he has a lot of wounded pride going into the fight

Got to disagree James.
Frank was too brave for his own good.
I’m not saying he was so great. I’m saying he is so derided. So much so that folks on websites mock him.
No. Frank was very good. In an era of proper fighters.
How would AJ fare against Tim, Lennox, Tyson? Against Bonecrusher Smith.
Tbh I think The Late Gary Mason takes his head off.
Respect James. But I disagree mate

That's fine mate, noting wrong with disagreeing.

Smith, I think Smith was just a big lump really, big puncher, similar to Dubois, but bigger and stronger if anything.

Tim Witherspoon blew hot and cold, good fighter, cagey, but also not in the best of shape often.

Lennox is cut above everybody around right now.

Mason, interesting call, Mason had a hell of a chin, and serious firepower, easy to see him flattening AJ down the stretch.

Frank was very brave, but when he got hurt, he turned into a statue, would just stand there shipping punishment.

A peak AJ, maybe just a slight favourite over Frank in his prime, not a lot in it for me,

As I said earlier, Joshua would be lucky to crack top 20 of all time, and probably lower, as he only has a handful of good wins in a pretty weak era.

Top 20 is extremely generous. He's 28-4 in a weak era where he has had all the advantages known to man and bever boxed his main rivals! Forget the fact I'm a Fury fan, I've been constantly saying this since BEFORE the Olympics.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 11:45

si7dog7 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:43

Yeah, I'm not sure about that, let's not forget, Jumbo Cummings had Bruno all over the gaff in the first scare of his career.

Bruno had very poor survivial instincts, even the ghost of McCall almost had him out of there.

Lewis was not in his prime when he faced Frank, and that was arguably the best performance ever by Bruno, he has a lot of wounded pride going into the fight

Got to disagree James.
Frank was too brave for his own good.
I’m not saying he was so great. I’m saying he is so derided. So much so that folks on websites mock him.
No. Frank was very good. In an era of proper fighters.
How would AJ fare against Tim, Lennox, Tyson? Against Bonecrusher Smith.
Tbh I think The Late Gary Mason takes his head off.
Respect James. But I disagree mate

That's fine mate, noting wrong with disagreeing.

Smith, I think Smith was just a big lump really, big puncher, similar to Dubois, but bigger and stronger if anything.

Tim Witherspoon blew hot and cold, good fighter, cagey, but also not in the best of shape often.

Lennox is cut above everybody around right now.

Mason, interesting call, Mason had a hell of a chin, and serious firepower, easy to see him flattening AJ down the stretch.

Frank was very brave, but when he got hurt, he turned into a statue, would just stand there shipping punishment.

A peak AJ, maybe just a slight favourite over Frank in his prime, not a lot in it for me,

As I said earlier, Joshua would be lucky to crack top 20 of all time, and probably lower, as he only has a handful of good wins in a pretty weak era.

Thanks James. Tbh I haven’t got AJ anywhere near top 20. I rate the guy but not in that rarified air.
I Got Frank about 200 btw

The Wlad fight, which should have been a great learning experience to kick on from and establish him as a proper champion turned out to be a curse. The men around him decided he couldn't be put anywhere near danger again if it could be helped. The red hot Wilder fight was a pipe dream. Little did his casual fans know, he peaked in April 2017.

si7dog7 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 12:18

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 11:45

si7dog7 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 10:51
Got to disagree James.
Frank was too brave for his own good.
I’m not saying he was so great. I’m saying he is so derided. So much so that folks on websites mock him.
No. Frank was very good. In an era of proper fighters.
How would AJ fare against Tim, Lennox, Tyson? Against Bonecrusher Smith.
Tbh I think The Late Gary Mason takes his head off.
Respect James. But I disagree mate

That's fine mate, noting wrong with disagreeing.

Smith, I think Smith was just a big lump really, big puncher, similar to Dubois, but bigger and stronger if anything.

Tim Witherspoon blew hot and cold, good fighter, cagey, but also not in the best of shape often.

Lennox is cut above everybody around right now.

Mason, interesting call, Mason had a hell of a chin, and serious firepower, easy to see him flattening AJ down the stretch.

Frank was very brave, but when he got hurt, he turned into a statue, would just stand there shipping punishment.

A peak AJ, maybe just a slight favourite over Frank in his prime, not a lot in it for me,

As I said earlier, Joshua would be lucky to crack top 20 of all time, and probably lower, as he only has a handful of good wins in a pretty weak era.

Thanks James. Tbh I haven’t got AJ anywhere near top 20. I rate the guy but not in that rarified air.
I Got Frank about 200 btw

The truth is, there have been very few long reigning champions in the heavyweight division, after you get past the usual suspects, there's really very few guys who held a belt let alone all of the belts for long.

I would have him somewhere between 20-30, no idea where and it becomes extremely subjective, because there's quite a few guys who might have beaten him, who never even got a title shot.

It's astonishing that a 34 year old boxer with that much experience has such a low ring iq.

Fine against fighters where he has all the advantages as he's a big lad and not easy to shift but put him up against anyone with some boxing ability and a big punch who is willing to face up to him and he's completely lost.

He's had an incredible career considering his lack of basics but has he been unable or unwilling to improve his skill set over the years? He claims to be on a journey to keep improving so it must be the former.

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 07:36 I'd like to see AJ retire. That was a punishing fight and, I suspect a rematch would be over even quicker, probably one or two rounds.

His heart was incredible and to come through those 4 rounds and give himself a chance of winning in the 5th was quite something.

But, I fear he has entered the dangerous territory where he can see the punches but can no longer get out of the way.

Would like to see Dubois vs Bakole, Parker or Zhang.

I think he'd beat Fury as well. That, in theory, should be an easy fight to make as they both share the same promoter. That said, I'd like Fury to retire as well. Ditto Wilder. Their health is there wealth.

I’d like to see Zheili Zhang vs Joshua. Because I’m a sadist.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 09:51

MasterG wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 09:48 I don't think DD is any better than AJ.

Last night proved he was.

Does one fight prove you are a better fighter than your opponent? I don't think so. You can be better on the night but overall?

Some divergent opinions on Frank Bruno the fighter in the last few posts.

I followed his career on TV when I was right into boxing.

The first bout I saw 'live' ie, not knowing the result, was versus Peter Mulendwa. A small, by heavyweight standards, late replacement with only 5 fights and losing 2 of them. He was one of those tough african fighters but Bruno was in a different class and broke him up with hard stiff jabs with 16st behind them and solid right crosses. It was over in 2½ very one-sided rounds.

I tracked down the available earlier Bruno fights and watched them but nowhere near the same when you know the result.

I think its fair to say Big Frank got a gentle intro into the professional game. Mainly because that was The Cartel's' way with prospects, especially big punching heavyweights who can make them plenty moolah.

It got a lot harder 6 or so months after Mulendwa when he met a very big bloke who came to fight and hadn't read the script. Floyd "Jumbo" Cummings. That fight is on youtube, possibly split into 2 parts. If you've never seen it, its well worth a watch starting with Part 1.

Overall, I tend to think Bruno did well with what he had.

That was very hard punch in either hand, a very good left jab, fitness, great training and sparring and realisation that he was going to make some money in the game, potentionally millions if he could keep winning.

On the debit side, he had some major flaws that he could do little about. As someone mentioned above, any very hard punch to the head had the real potential to make him unravel dramatically. That is by far the most important of his problems as a fighter. He was also somewhat robotic. He COULD box but not much more than the basics in my opinion. His stamina seemed to leave him too on certain occasions when he got in trouble.

Regarding intangibles. Mentally? Much smarter than he pretended to be on TV. However, he did seem to want to please people, win their approval and be liked which is a heavy burden to carry I would think.

Just my take. I know a lot of you followed boxing in that era, some more closely and/or from better vantage point than me. I'd be interested to hear any current thoughts on Bruno as a fighter. (That applies to you too Spud. I know you're reading; come back mate. If I offended you, I apologise.)

I remember picking up the Sun newspaper in WHSmith looking at the back pages and they were talking about the ABA champ Frank Bruno who was going to be turning pro soon with Terry Lawless…one to watch big strong boy, watch out for this lad etc

And the story was how Frank had had a career threatening eye problem fixed when he and Terry travelled for an operation to some far flung place

Then his much hyped pro debut against some overweight Mexican who he absolutely walloped of course. Then a series of knock over jobs And the BBC and the public were getting a bit tired of this, like come on let’s have a test here …about a year later they were saying yeah he’s got a test now - it was against the hard punching Winston Allen, and I remember Allen landed a right hand. Possibly the first opponent who actually hit back at him. Frank took it before dispatching him and everyone was like yes!! Frank’s shown he can take a punch

Next up was Eddie Nielsen a pretty decent ex prospect who they thought would give Frank a big test but he was stopped on cuts and so it rolled on ..with an American debut against some palooka and he pulled out an almighty uppercut and everyone was like wow, this boy is real. He can hit big time.

Then of course came the much storied fight against Floyd Jumbo Cummings ( who I think had actually been in with smoking Joe Frazier, bizarrely ) everyone watching on the BBC couldn’t believe it when Frank was chinned and out on his feet, Terry lawless jumping into the ring to guide him back to the corner… Boy oh Boy, what a close shave that was - Frank came back to win, but the writing was on the wall

After how this fight has looked like, it's hard to pick anything, but the repeat. Dub is no Andy Ruiz.

I can remember the buzz on my little table at primary school when the Tyson-Bruno was announced. Both were massive household names at that point. We all knew Frank was going to get battered too.

Would expect Dubois to be even better.

Joshua meanwhile can't be any worse, but trajectory and age isn't really on his side.

Still Joshua can win, but seems any big shot and something mentality goes. The antics and outcomes of when Ruiz hit him and when Dubois hit him were very similar.

That's the worst I've seen him box. The video of this fight should be shown to new / novice boxers an an example of several things that you just should not do.

It may well be that he regressed / fell apart after the first knockdown, but even so.

For instance, uppercuts. If Joshua had thrown it properly, instead of like a white collar fighter, he wouldn't have been sparked by Dubois (albeit well landed) counter.

AJ's feet were shit - too far apart and and he was taking them off the floor for too long when he danced around the ring.

His corner were absolute shit too, absolute amateur hour. First knockdown, he should have been told to stay down and take the knee until 8 instead of springing straight up and falling forwards. He was still fucked, and lucky it was end of the round.

Why didn't he have his hands in his lap? Basic stuff.



Absolute fornicating jibberish - none of it was going in.

AJ won't stand any chance if he doesn't get Rob McCracken back in his corner.

MightyWarrior wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 04:17 I remember picking up the Sun newspaper in WHSmith looking at the back pages and they were talking about the ABA champ Frank Bruno who was going to be turning pro soon with Terry Lawless…one to watch big strong boy, watch out for this lad etc

And the story was how Frank had had a career threatening eye problem fixed when he and Terry travelled for an operation to some far flung place

Then his much hyped pro debut against some overweight Mexican who he absolutely walloped of course. Then a series of knock over jobs And the BBC and the public were getting a bit tired of this, like come on let’s have a test here …about a year later they were saying yeah he’s got a test now - it was against the hard punching Winston Allen, and I remember Allen landed a right hand. Possibly the first opponent who actually hit back at him. Frank took it before dispatching him and everyone was like yes!! Frank’s shown he can take a punch

Next up was Eddie Nielsen a pretty decent ex prospect who they thought would give Frank a big test but he was stopped on cuts and so it rolled on ..with an American debut against some palooka and he pulled out an almighty uppercut and everyone was like wow, this boy is real. He can hit big time.

Then of course came the much storied fight against Floyd Jumbo Cummings ( who I think had actually been in with smoking Joe Frazier, bizarrely ) everyone watching on the BBC couldn’t believe it when Frank was chinned and out on his feet, Terry lawless jumping into the ring to guide him back to the corner… Boy oh Boy, what a close shave that was - Frank came back to win, but the writing was on the wall

If I remember Joe Bugner had recently returned for Frank and they were fighting the same opponents in Neilson and Allen and Bruno fought them after Bugner had beaten them.
I always felt Bruno ran out of gas rather than being weak on the chin

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 07:09 After how this fight has looked like, it's hard to pick anything, but the repeat. Dub is no Andy Ruiz.

Lord, no. If Dubois turns up next time looking like he's been training at Maccy D's I'll eat my hat.

Dan Dares wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 10:25 That's the worst I've seen him box. The video of this fight should be shown to new / novice boxers an an example of several things that you just should not do.

It may well be that he regressed / fell apart after the first knockdown, but even so.

For instance, uppercuts. If Joshua had thrown it properly, instead of like a white collar fighter, he wouldn't have been sparked by Dubois (albeit well landed) counter.

AJ's feet were shit - too far apart and and he was taking them off the floor for too long when he danced around the ring.

His corner were absolute shit too, absolute amateur hour. First knockdown, he should have been told to stay down and take the knee until 8 instead of springing straight up and falling forwards. He was still fucked, and lucky it was end of the round.

Why didn't he have his hands in his lap? Basic stuff.



Absolute fornicating jibberish - none of it was going in.

I especially liked AJ barking "get on with it" at him Nothing says "success" quite like absolute obvious contempt for your trainer

DD won every minute of every round, what's AJ gonna do that's so much different at his age. Roll the dice? Da fcuk does that even mean?

Nightmare Roy wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 11:20 DD won every minute of every round, what's AJ gonna do that's so much different at his age. Roll the dice? Da fcuk does that even mean?

Run in with your hands down and get faceplanted, I suppose

Someone could argue that Joshua was boxing on instinct from round 2 onwards after taking that chin spinner at the end of the first.

But he hadn’t really looked like he could control nor threaten Dubois throughout that first round. AJ’s punches were either poorly delivered, partially blocked or avoided altogether.

I never say never in boxing, but there doesn’t look like a cat in hell’s chance of revenge for this match up. Dubois is all wrong for him.

Back to the topic, I certainly think AJ *could* do far better and even win next time, with a proper game plan (though it's more likely to end up the same way). Whether Sir Humbalot actually is humble enough to a) get a trainer with the right technical knowledge and b) listen to a fúcking thing they say is a whole other question.

aj absolutely smashed. he should sit it out until a big cashout fury fight, and then retire

big dubs with 3 very good wins since usyk stopped him, nice work. talks softly (and awkwardly as hell) but carries some heavy arse hands

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 11:52 aj absolutely smashed. he should sit it out until a big cashout fury fight, and then retire

big dubs with 3 very good wins since usyk stopped him, nice work. talks softly (and awkwardly as hell) but carries some heavy arse hands

thats the money for him and fury - get a big saudi mega payday and then pack it in before either gets cabbaged