BoxRec

pound per pound wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 07:05

KiwiRider wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:46

tiny_acres wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 22:13

How much weight does Joshua's win over Parker matter right now?
I mean it was 6 and a half years ago

Well that was my quandary
One is on the up, and the other on the slide. Parker is way better now than he was when they fought, and over the last 6+ years Joshua got better then started to slide. If they fought again I'd give Parker the edge on a points win I probably don't want to watch

I know right. DDD is suddenly a king of this heavyweight ant hill. Among his weapons is a mean head butt and low blow.

Mental isn't it? Dubois beats up Joshua who everybody seems to agree fought terribly with his hands held low etc, yet out of everybody in the whole division these same people have put him in as the second best against a guy he lost every round against and was stopped by, and only had success against by punching low. That's the clear number two, is it?

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 08:52

pound per pound wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 07:05

KiwiRider wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:46

Well that was my quandary
One is on the up, and the other on the slide. Parker is way better now than he was when they fought, and over the last 6+ years Joshua got better then started to slide. If they fought again I'd give Parker the edge on a points win I probably don't want to watch

I know right. DDD is suddenly a king of this heavyweight ant hill. Among his weapons is a mean head butt and low blow.

Mental isn't it? Dubois beats up Joshua who everybody seems to agree fought terribly with his hands held low etc, yet out of everybody in the whole division these same people have put him in as the second best against a guy he lost every round against and was stopped by, and only had success against by punching low. That's the clear number two, is it?

I had Dubois at 2 based on the fact he's beat Joshua who is the best scalp based on recent record (past 2 years) by anyone not named Usyk. I don't actually think he'd beat everyone below him, he just has the win to put him there.

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:01

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 08:52

pound per pound wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 07:05

I know right. DDD is suddenly a king of this heavyweight ant hill. Among his weapons is a mean head butt and low blow.

Mental isn't it? Dubois beats up Joshua who everybody seems to agree fought terribly with his hands held low etc, yet out of everybody in the whole division these same people have put him in as the second best against a guy he lost every round against and was stopped by, and only had success against by punching low. That's the clear number two, is it?

I had Dubois at 2 based on the fact he's beat Joshua who is the best scalp based on recent record (past 2 years) by anyone not named Usyk. I don't actually think he'd beat everyone below him, he just has the win to put him there.

That's fine. I'm just saying, your vote post is all about how Joshua lost it because of his arrogance and being terrible, not about how brilliant Dubois looked. Yet you've voted Dubois to be 2nd best heavyweight in the world.

I think Dubois looked great and voted him very high based on that and his last two wins also, but can see him being lower. 2nd best heavyweight in the world is crazy to me.

Boxrec rankings have him that so, what do I know?

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:31

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:01

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 08:52
Mental isn't it? Dubois beats up Joshua who everybody seems to agree fought terribly with his hands held low etc, yet out of everybody in the whole division these same people have put him in as the second best against a guy he lost every round against and was stopped by, and only had success against by punching low. That's the clear number two, is it?

I had Dubois at 2 based on the fact he's beat Joshua who is the best scalp based on recent record (past 2 years) by anyone not named Usyk. I don't actually think he'd beat everyone below him, he just has the win to put him there.

That's fine. I'm just saying, your vote post is all about how Joshua lost it because of his arrogance and being terrible, not about how brilliant Dubois looked. Yet you've voted Dubois to be 2nd best heavyweight in the world.

I think Dubois looked great and voted him very high based on that and his last two wins also, but can see him being lower. 2nd best heavyweight in the world is crazy to me.

Boxrec rankings have him that so, what do I know?

A win is a win and if Joshua looks like shit then that's his fault, so he loses and gets voted down. I don't vote on the eye test unless it's become obvious they're shot (ege. Joyce) so Joshua as a scalp is still a top top win.

Name some better wins than Dubois over Joshua recently?

I say just swap them around.

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 12:53

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:31

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:01

I had Dubois at 2 based on the fact he's beat Joshua who is the best scalp based on recent record (past 2 years) by anyone not named Usyk. I don't actually think he'd beat everyone below him, he just has the win to put him there.

That's fine. I'm just saying, your vote post is all about how Joshua lost it because of his arrogance and being terrible, not about how brilliant Dubois looked. Yet you've voted Dubois to be 2nd best heavyweight in the world.

I think Dubois looked great and voted him very high based on that and his last two wins also, but can see him being lower. 2nd best heavyweight in the world is crazy to me.

Boxrec rankings have him that so, what do I know?

A win is a win and if Joshua looks like shit then that's his fault, so he loses and gets voted down. I don't vote on the eye test unless it's become obvious they're shot (ege. Joyce) so Joshua as a scalp is still a top top win.

Name some better wins than Dubois over Joshua recently?

Usyk’s win over Fury?

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:28

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 12:53

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:31
That's fine. I'm just saying, your vote post is all about how Joshua lost it because of his arrogance and being terrible, not about how brilliant Dubois looked. Yet you've voted Dubois to be 2nd best heavyweight in the world.

I think Dubois looked great and voted him very high based on that and his last two wins also, but can see him being lower. 2nd best heavyweight in the world is crazy to me.

Boxrec rankings have him that so, what do I know?

A win is a win and if Joshua looks like shit then that's his fault, so he loses and gets voted down. I don't vote on the eye test unless it's become obvious they're shot (ege. Joyce) so Joshua as a scalp is still a top top win.

Name some better wins than Dubois over Joshua recently?

Usyk’s win over Fury?

Yeah, he's ranked 1st. Usyk also has two wins over Joshua. Who else should be ranked 2nd based on a better win than Dubois has?

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:01

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 08:52

pound per pound wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 07:05

I know right. DDD is suddenly a king of this heavyweight ant hill. Among his weapons is a mean head butt and low blow.

Mental isn't it? Dubois beats up Joshua who everybody seems to agree fought terribly with his hands held low etc, yet out of everybody in the whole division these same people have put him in as the second best against a guy he lost every round against and was stopped by, and only had success against by punching low. That's the clear number two, is it?

I had Dubois at 2 based on the fact he's beat Joshua who is the best scalp based on recent record (past 2 years) by anyone not named Usyk. I don't actually think he'd beat everyone below him, he just has the win to put him there.

Nice one Josh
That's putting it way better than my attempt. You have to look at a snapshot of the last 2-3 fights. Fighters change. That AJ we saw was stiff, sluggish, and making real rookie mistakes. If they rematch, he can turn it around like he did vs Ruiz, but this also could be the start of a slide that retires him from the championship level.

Dubois to #3
AJ to #5

I like Joe, but I currently see more potential in Dubois.

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:54

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:28

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 12:53

A win is a win and if Joshua looks like shit then that's his fault, so he loses and gets voted down. I don't vote on the eye test unless it's become obvious they're shot (ege. Joyce) so Joshua as a scalp is still a top top win.

Name some better wins than Dubois over Joshua recently?

Usyk’s win over Fury?

Yeah, he's ranked 1st. Usyk also has two wins over Joshua. Who else should be ranked 2nd based on a better win than Dubois has?

Do you think that if Usyk was rematching Dubois in December that contest could legitimately be billed as the deciding fight between the two best fighters in the division?

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 16:19

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:54

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:28
Usyk’s win over Fury?

Yeah, he's ranked 1st. Usyk also has two wins over Joshua. Who else should be ranked 2nd based on a better win than Dubois has?

Do you think that if Usyk was rematching Dubois in December that contest could legitimately be billed as the deciding fight between the two best fighters in the division?

You're mad if you think Warren wouldn't bill it as that and you're simple if you still don't understand how you're missing the point. I've said before I don't think Dubois beats everyone else, he is just the only one that's gone and beat anyone worthwhile. Parker is the only other guy with an arguable claim to 2nd but in my opinion Dubois' win tops Parker's.

I assume you're basing your rankings on hypotheticals and the eye test whereas I'm basing mine on actual results.

Dubois to 3
Joshua to 9 (below Bakole)

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 07:02

Manrae wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 19:26 Are we allowed to rank Lawrence Okolie at Heavyweight?

No.

We are voting only for the position of Joshua and Dubois.

When Okolie fights at heavyweight there will be a vote on him.

Fair enough, only asked due to the Bridgerweight division not being recognized completely

Here is my top 15:

1. Oleksandr Usyk
2. Daniel Dubois
3. Tyson Fury
4. Joseph Parker
5. Martin Bakole
6. Zhilei Zhang
7. Dillian Whyte
8. Filip Hrgovic
9. Anthony Joshua
10. Agit Kabayel
11. Efe Ajagba
12. Jarrell Miller
13. Derek Chisora
14. Justis Huni
15. Frank Sanchez

Anymore on this

1. Usyk
2. Dubois
3. Fury
4. Parker
5 Kabyel
6. Hrgovic
7. Joshua
8, Zhang
9. Bakole
10. Jalolov

.......


25. Wilder


That's how I C it.

- P4P

Joshua to #4
Dubois to #3

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:54

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 13:28

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 12:53

A win is a win and if Joshua looks like shit then that's his fault, so he loses and gets voted down. I don't vote on the eye test unless it's become obvious they're shot (ege. Joyce) so Joshua as a scalp is still a top top win.

Name some better wins than Dubois over Joshua recently?

Usyk’s win over Fury?

Yeah, he's ranked 1st. Usyk also has two wins over Joshua. Who else should be ranked 2nd based on a better win than Dubois has?

Agree, Usyk is clear #1, and Dubois has the 2nd best win as well. Certainly, by the manner of it.

Since Dubois lost to Usyk, DDD has had three good wins
Usyk (loss to the #1)
Miller (top 15/20 win)
Hrgovic (top 10 win)
Joshua (top 5 win)

Fury's resume is worse over his last 4
Whyte (top 5 win)
Chisora (top 15/20 win)
Ngannou (win over debutant)
Usyk (loss to the #1)

They are on opposite trajectories.

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 12:53

Cyclops wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:31

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 09:01

I had Dubois at 2 based on the fact he's beat Joshua who is the best scalp based on recent record (past 2 years) by anyone not named Usyk. I don't actually think he'd beat everyone below him, he just has the win to put him there.

That's fine. I'm just saying, your vote post is all about how Joshua lost it because of his arrogance and being terrible, not about how brilliant Dubois looked. Yet you've voted Dubois to be 2nd best heavyweight in the world.

I think Dubois looked great and voted him very high based on that and his last two wins also, but can see him being lower. 2nd best heavyweight in the world is crazy to me.

Boxrec rankings have him that so, what do I know?

A win is a win and if Joshua looks like shit then that's his fault, so he loses and gets voted down. I don't vote on the eye test unless it's become obvious they're shot (ege. Joyce) so Joshua as a scalp is still a top top win.

Name some better wins than Dubois over Joshua recently?

Although not directed to me to reply I think DDD is #2 based on a somewhat dirty win over Hrgovic ( headbutts )  and looking good vs. Joshua, AND Joshua regressing a bit.  I think Joshua has hit the point where he wants to cash out more so than win.

DDD is a good offensive fighter who features the best head butt since Holyfeild, and a good jab and right hand.  He will toss a few below the belt too.  Defense and moving his head are not his thing and let's not forget this man quit before and was floored multiple times  from a journeyman.

But alas I rate him #2.   This heavyweight division is weak. I say it is the weakest in the past 35 years.

Usyk is the only really good HOF fighter in it and he  is older.  Who else is there?  The untested Jaolov who looks very good and? The USA based heavies are all but gone,  and the British heavies are very  hyped.  But for us fans at least there is an insert in them to make big fights. It is what is is.

Dubois to #3
Joshua to #8

pound per pound wrote: ↑28 Sep 2024, 08:08 This heavyweight division is weak. I say it is the weakest in the past 35 years.

I don't think it is. I think it's competitive, and most of the top 10 can beat anyone else in the top 10 based on their respective performance on the night, and that isn't a bad thing.

I remember ages back when I first started posting on the forum, the heavyweight division was rubbish, ruled over by Wlad and Vitali, with nobody else being able to touch them. And we were never going to get a definitive number 1, because they wouldn't fight each other. I mean, Vitali wouldn't even pay Valuev the 4 million he asked for to get him in the ring. We were forced to get excited about David Haye and Alexander Povetkin. Ring magazine was hyping up the likes of Chris Arreola. Adamek, a blown up light heavyweight, was briefly considered a contender.

I also remember the years prior to this, before Wlad became dominant, and he was considered the best of a bad, boring, Eastern European bunch. Does anybody remember Sam Peter fighting a fat James Toney being considered a significant fight? That was the cover story on one of the first editions of Boxing News I ever bought.

There has been a lot of stalling and pissing about, especially during COVID, but this era of the past 6 or 7 years, is full of characters and has produced some cracking fights, some corking knockouts, and some brilliant nights of boxing.

Perhaps the up and comers will create a much better new era, but I can't see it for now.

I think we should appreciate this era while we have it. I'll definitely miss it once it's gone.

Anyone will always say the current division is weaker than the previous. And then the next era will be weaker than this one etc. only then maybe the current era will get some respect?

Just because everyone’s winning and losing to everyone doesn’t make it weak.

We’re seeing a lot of fights between ranked fighters. They’re finally fighting each other.

HW boxing is a different ball game.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑29 Sep 2024, 05:14 Anyone will always say the current division is weaker than the previous. And then the next era will be weaker than this one etc. only then maybe the current era will get some respect?

Just because everyone’s winning and losing to everyone doesn’t make it weak.

We’re seeing a lot of fights between ranked fighters. They’re finally fighting each other.

HW boxing is a different ball game.

That's it, thanks to His Excellency we don't have to speculate what happens if X fights y.

The division is in a state of flux. It might have taken a king's ransom to force Fury to fight Usyk, but without that fight and the 2 AJ v Usyk fights, plus the recent Dubios fight, our entire top 10 would look even more abstract.

Let's not also forget that if AJ beats Dubois in their rematch, and goes to beat Usyk, he'll once again, quite rightly be touted as the best ever.

There are still a few boxing fans who actually believe that Lennox Lewis was the best ever HW.

Some say it was Joe Frazier.

Others think it was Mike Tyson.

Perhaps it was George Foreman?

The rest of us know it was Muhammad Ali...or maybe Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Teofilo Stevenson etc.

Yes, the events of last Saturday were shocking, but I expect a sense of normality to return shortly. There is a changing of the the guards coming, there has to be, given the age of the big names, but maybe not just yet.

At 34 Anthony Joshua could still be near his peak. When he fought Klitschko back in 2017, Wlad was 41 years old.

Will wrap this up in coming days

Dubois to #5
Joshua to #9

Thomastearns wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 11:12 How about?

1. Usyk
2 Joshua
3. Dubois
4. Parker
5. Fury
6. Zhang
7. Kabayel
8. Joyce
9. Hrgovic
10. Bakole

After seeing this, I feel a little guilty at only putting Bakole at 10.

In any case, I can't remember the last time the top 10 looked so strong.