The Klitschko Brothers

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Floyd Patterson and Ingo Bingo in the HOF with very ordinary records examples of HOF selections.

The HOF Ks have dominated Hvy for 30 years now in 'Ring Rankings now upheld by soon to be HOF Usyk whom they promote in a fashion never seen before. Wlad the first Hvy to challenge the Immaculate Joe Louis record.

OP don't understand the lag time of HOF, sometimes as much as 50 years. Nor does he understand they put a lady boxer in the HOF who never had a registered bout ama or pro. They ain't the brightest bulbs burning, but then neither are most boxing officials and fans, so OP in good company.

Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, and even Lefties Tony Thompson and Corrie Sanders who died a heroes death could get in. They would all beat most HOF Hvys currently enshrined. Only a half dozen elite HOF Hvys would have a chance .

Hi there Broughton, hope all is well.

I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali. How do you see them in the pantheon of greats. And Usyk? He seems like a fantastic fighter to me. Up there with anyone I've seen in the division since following the sport.

- I've posted this list of Boxrec ranked heavies at the time the usual emasculates howling over Vit fighting Shannon Briggs as a sample of then and now boxing idiocy. The IBHOF first inaugurates were 1990 about the time the Ks were making big waves in Ama boxing. It's a poor copy of the long time Baseball HOF established in the 1930s, but fact is they're both a cross of beauty contests and Oscars. John Wayne didn't win an Oscar until he was an ol'man in his last cancerous days appearing in True Grit, a performance that had me howling like it was a such Laurel and Hardy romp.

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

Ironically Big George set a record for winning a title after a 10 year absence from boxing similar to Vit's 4 year absence before going straight into a WBC title fight vs Champion Sam Peter whom he KOed.

*** Boxrec rankings as of September 5th, 2010 while Vitali, Wlad, and David Haye were all putting together their fights.

The (notes) are mine of course:

1. Wlad

2. Vitali

3. Haye (already backed out of one signed and sealed contract and refused recent 50/50 offer by the Klitschkos, signing to defend against Audley Harrison in spite of repeated denials that he was even in negotiations)
4. Adamek (pending to allow cuts to heal, but apparently fighting Maddalone in Dec)
5. Chagaev (beat badly by Wlad and currently Haye’s mandatory)
6. Povetkin (refused to sign negotiated agreement to challenge in Wlad’s last defense, thus losing his 2 yr long mandatory ranking, not to mention his trainer, Teddy Atlas, says Povetkin is not yet ready to challenge for the title.)
7. Valuev (interesting deal was almost put together against Vitali, but out into next year with left shoulder/wrist surgery)
8. Peter (beat badly by Wlad 2x/Vitali 1x)
9. Thompson (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
10. Chambers (beat badly by Wlad and still rebuilding)
11. Arreola (beat badly by Vitali and still rebuilding)
12. Dimitrenko (new EBU champ, but turned down Klitschko offers, maybe building into a much bigger promotion in the next year of two)
13. Gomez (beat badly by Vitali and a last ditch opponent for now)
14. Sexton (busy being knocked out by Chisora)
15. Boytsov (maybe in the future, but only 24 and shaking off the rust after coming back from hand surgery, now is not his time, maybe a year or two in a bigger promotion)
16. Austin (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
17. Helenius (very promising prospect recently breaking into fringe contender. Maybe a year or two away in a much bigger promotion)
18. Solis (chubby growing into a blimp with promoter problems looking like he’s moving to challenge for the WBA cheese belt, not the Klitschkos)
19. Pianeta (who dat?)
20. T Ibragimov (The lesser talented of the Russian Iggys, his cousin already lost a shutout against Wlad)
21. Sosnowski (beat badly by Vitali and rebuilding against Dimitrenko)
22. Ustinov (undefeated Russian Bigfoot monster promoted by Ks and wants a Kbro. I’m guessing Vitali’s retirement fight if he makes it past Briggs and can’t sign Haye or Valuev)
23. Holyfield (Oh, brother, where art thou buried? Jeez…..)
24. Platov (who? See Pianeta!)
25. Johnson (beat worse than badly by Vitali……..please, watching Vitali try to stuff a giant squash into a blender would be better stuffing for a Saturday night turkey……..nevermore…….nevermore…….)

So, thusly informed, now say HELLO to one Shannon The Cannon Briggs, lifelong asthmaholic, part time wastrel, yet all while breaking the all time first round KO record first officially recorded by Jack Dempsey in his all time tear through the heavy division. Briggs has 31 first round KOs, unofficially 32 but for failing a post fight drug test, probably a positive test result for ganja. Briggs is unabashedly Jamaican after all.

Briggs is a strange one alright. He was a dynamic, charismatic young personality who won the ‘Dream’ “Lineal” heavyweight title with a dubious decision over the nearing 50 yr old Big George Foreman, then was knocked out in a ferocious slugfest against WBC champ Lennox Lewis in his very next bout. Instead of rebuilding, he partied hardy and let his training and weight go, thus was written off as a wasted talent.

In spite of all the above shortcomings, many years later he managed to renew “The Dream” when Briggs lifted the WBO title from the then highly regarded Siarhei Liakhovich with a Hail Mary last second knockout in the 12th round, a title that Briggs promptly dropped in his first defense. He then retired to hit the all you can eat buffets for 2 yrs before coming back hard with 4 straight 1st rd Kos.

[Ezzard]

- Floyd Patterson and Ingo Bingo in the HOF with very ordinary records examples of HOF selections.

The HOF Ks have dominated Hvy for 30 years now in 'Ring Rankings now upheld by soon to be HOF Usyk whom they promote in a fashion never seen before. Wlad the first Hvy to challenge the Immaculate Joe Louis record.

OP don't understand the lag time of HOF, sometimes as much as 50 years. Nor does he understand they put a lady boxer in the HOF who never had a registered bout ama or pro. They ain't the brightest bulbs burning, but then neither are most boxing officials and fans, so OP in good company.

Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, and even Lefties Tony Thompson and Corrie Sanders who died a heroes death could get in. They would all beat most HOF Hvys currently enshrined. Only a half dozen elite HOF Hvys would have a chance .

Hi there Broughton, hope all is well.

I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali. How do you see them in the pantheon of greats. And Usyk? He seems like a fantastic fighter to me. Up there with anyone I've seen in the division since following the sport.

- I've posted this list of Boxrec ranked heavies at the time the usual emasculates howling over Vit fighting Shannon Briggs as a sample of then and now boxing idiocy. The IBHOF first inaugurates were 1990 about the time the Ks were making big waves in Ama boxing. It's a poor copy of the long time Baseball HOF established in the 1930s, but fact is they're both a cross of beauty contests and Oscars. John Wayne didn't win an Oscar until he was an ol'man in his last cancerous days appearing in True Grit, a performance that had me howling like it was a such Laurel and Hardy romp.

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

Ironically Big George set a record for winning a title after a 10 year absence from boxing similar to Vit's 4 year absence before going straight into a WBC title fight vs Champion Sam Peter whom he KOed.

*** Boxrec rankings as of September 5th, 2010 while Vitali, Wlad, and David Haye were all putting together their fights.

The (notes) are mine of course:

1. Wlad

2. Vitali

3. Haye (already backed out of one signed and sealed contract and refused recent 50/50 offer by the Klitschkos, signing to defend against Audley Harrison in spite of repeated denials that he was even in negotiations)
4. Adamek (pending to allow cuts to heal, but apparently fighting Maddalone in Dec)
5. Chagaev (beat badly by Wlad and currently Haye’s mandatory)
6. Povetkin (refused to sign negotiated agreement to challenge in Wlad’s last defense, thus losing his 2 yr long mandatory ranking, not to mention his trainer, Teddy Atlas, says Povetkin is not yet ready to challenge for the title.)
7. Valuev (interesting deal was almost put together against Vitali, but out into next year with left shoulder/wrist surgery)
8. Peter (beat badly by Wlad 2x/Vitali 1x)
9. Thompson (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
10. Chambers (beat badly by Wlad and still rebuilding)
11. Arreola (beat badly by Vitali and still rebuilding)
12. Dimitrenko (new EBU champ, but turned down Klitschko offers, maybe building into a much bigger promotion in the next year of two)
13. Gomez (beat badly by Vitali and a last ditch opponent for now)
14. Sexton (busy being knocked out by Chisora)
15. Boytsov (maybe in the future, but only 24 and shaking off the rust after coming back from hand surgery, now is not his time, maybe a year or two in a bigger promotion)
16. Austin (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
17. Helenius (very promising prospect recently breaking into fringe contender. Maybe a year or two away in a much bigger promotion)
18. Solis (chubby growing into a blimp with promoter problems looking like he’s moving to challenge for the WBA cheese belt, not the Klitschkos)
19. Pianeta (who dat?)
20. T Ibragimov (The lesser talented of the Russian Iggys, his cousin already lost a shutout against Wlad)
21. Sosnowski (beat badly by Vitali and rebuilding against Dimitrenko)
22. Ustinov (undefeated Russian Bigfoot monster promoted by Ks and wants a Kbro. I’m guessing Vitali’s retirement fight if he makes it past Briggs and can’t sign Haye or Valuev)
23. Holyfield (Oh, brother, where art thou buried? Jeez…..)
24. Platov (who? See Pianeta!)
25. Johnson (beat worse than badly by Vitali……..please, watching Vitali try to stuff a giant squash into a blender would be better stuffing for a Saturday night turkey……..nevermore…….nevermore…….)

So, thusly informed, now say HELLO to one Shannon The Cannon Briggs, lifelong asthmaholic, part time wastrel, yet all while breaking the all time first round KO record first officially recorded by Jack Dempsey in his all time tear through the heavy division. Briggs has 31 first round KOs, unofficially 32 but for failing a post fight drug test, probably a positive test result for ganja. Briggs is unabashedly Jamaican after all.

Briggs is a strange one alright. He was a dynamic, charismatic young personality who won the ‘Dream’ “Lineal” heavyweight title with a dubious decision over the nearing 50 yr old Big George Foreman, then was knocked out in a ferocious slugfest against WBC champ Lennox Lewis in his very next bout. Instead of rebuilding, he partied hardy and let his training and weight go, thus was written off as a wasted talent.

In spite of all the above shortcomings, many years later he managed to renew “The Dream” when Briggs lifted the WBO title from the then highly regarded Siarhei Liakhovich with a Hail Mary last second knockout in the 12th round, a title that Briggs promptly dropped in his first defense. He then retired to hit the all you can eat buffets for 2 yrs before coming back hard with 4 straight 1st rd Kos.

How about Usyk? Are you a fan?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Hi there Broughton, hope all is well.

I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali. How do you see them in the pantheon of greats. And Usyk? He seems like a fantastic fighter to me. Up there with anyone I've seen in the division since following the sport.

- I've posted this list of Boxrec ranked heavies at the time the usual emasculates howling over Vit fighting Shannon Briggs as a sample of then and now boxing idiocy. The IBHOF first inaugurates were 1990 about the time the Ks were making big waves in Ama boxing. It's a poor copy of the long time Baseball HOF established in the 1930s, but fact is they're both a cross of beauty contests and Oscars. John Wayne didn't win an Oscar until he was an ol'man in his last cancerous days appearing in True Grit, a performance that had me howling like it was a such Laurel and Hardy romp.

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

Ironically Big George set a record for winning a title after a 10 year absence from boxing similar to Vit's 4 year absence before going straight into a WBC title fight vs Champion Sam Peter whom he KOed.

*** Boxrec rankings as of September 5th, 2010 while Vitali, Wlad, and David Haye were all putting together their fights.

The (notes) are mine of course:

1. Wlad

2. Vitali

3. Haye (already backed out of one signed and sealed contract and refused recent 50/50 offer by the Klitschkos, signing to defend against Audley Harrison in spite of repeated denials that he was even in negotiations)
4. Adamek (pending to allow cuts to heal, but apparently fighting Maddalone in Dec)
5. Chagaev (beat badly by Wlad and currently Haye’s mandatory)
6. Povetkin (refused to sign negotiated agreement to challenge in Wlad’s last defense, thus losing his 2 yr long mandatory ranking, not to mention his trainer, Teddy Atlas, says Povetkin is not yet ready to challenge for the title.)
7. Valuev (interesting deal was almost put together against Vitali, but out into next year with left shoulder/wrist surgery)
8. Peter (beat badly by Wlad 2x/Vitali 1x)
9. Thompson (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
10. Chambers (beat badly by Wlad and still rebuilding)
11. Arreola (beat badly by Vitali and still rebuilding)
12. Dimitrenko (new EBU champ, but turned down Klitschko offers, maybe building into a much bigger promotion in the next year of two)
13. Gomez (beat badly by Vitali and a last ditch opponent for now)
14. Sexton (busy being knocked out by Chisora)
15. Boytsov (maybe in the future, but only 24 and shaking off the rust after coming back from hand surgery, now is not his time, maybe a year or two in a bigger promotion)
16. Austin (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
17. Helenius (very promising prospect recently breaking into fringe contender. Maybe a year or two away in a much bigger promotion)
18. Solis (chubby growing into a blimp with promoter problems looking like he’s moving to challenge for the WBA cheese belt, not the Klitschkos)
19. Pianeta (who dat?)
20. T Ibragimov (The lesser talented of the Russian Iggys, his cousin already lost a shutout against Wlad)
21. Sosnowski (beat badly by Vitali and rebuilding against Dimitrenko)
22. Ustinov (undefeated Russian Bigfoot monster promoted by Ks and wants a Kbro. I’m guessing Vitali’s retirement fight if he makes it past Briggs and can’t sign Haye or Valuev)
23. Holyfield (Oh, brother, where art thou buried? Jeez…..)
24. Platov (who? See Pianeta!)
25. Johnson (beat worse than badly by Vitali……..please, watching Vitali try to stuff a giant squash into a blender would be better stuffing for a Saturday night turkey……..nevermore…….nevermore…….)

So, thusly informed, now say HELLO to one Shannon The Cannon Briggs, lifelong asthmaholic, part time wastrel, yet all while breaking the all time first round KO record first officially recorded by Jack Dempsey in his all time tear through the heavy division. Briggs has 31 first round KOs, unofficially 32 but for failing a post fight drug test, probably a positive test result for ganja. Briggs is unabashedly Jamaican after all.

Briggs is a strange one alright. He was a dynamic, charismatic young personality who won the ‘Dream’ “Lineal” heavyweight title with a dubious decision over the nearing 50 yr old Big George Foreman, then was knocked out in a ferocious slugfest against WBC champ Lennox Lewis in his very next bout. Instead of rebuilding, he partied hardy and let his training and weight go, thus was written off as a wasted talent.

In spite of all the above shortcomings, many years later he managed to renew “The Dream” when Briggs lifted the WBO title from the then highly regarded Siarhei Liakhovich with a Hail Mary last second knockout in the 12th round, a title that Briggs promptly dropped in his first defense. He then retired to hit the all you can eat buffets for 2 yrs before coming back hard with 4 straight 1st rd Kos.

How about Usyk? Are you a fan?

- Good call pending his Flubber fight, so I'd probably put Mike Tyson 6th an Usyk 7th. He matches up well against the 1990s+ name heavies. Of course Usyk near 38 years of age where anything could happen.

[keithmoonhangover]

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but is this your list of the top five heavyweights of all time?

[Ezzard]

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but is this your list of the top five heavyweights of all time?

No, they're Broughton's.

[keithmoonhangover]

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but is this your list of the top five heavyweights of all time?

No, they're Broughton's.

Sorry Ezzard, I meant to ask Broughton.

[keithmoonhangover]

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

Is this your top 5 ever Mr Broughton?

[gilgamesh]

I figure David Haye could potentially be a Hall of Famer, but he isn't in now, and if he is in it's barely. I don't think Klitschko has any wins over any Hall of Famers, but he undoubtedly is a Hall of Famer himself because in spite of being dominant in an era with few Hall of Fame worthy opponents, he nonetheless was the best among them for a long, long time.

As well as the weak era, the biggest fights he had as champion – Ibragimov (was a big deal at the time as first unification in years, big push from HBO), Haye and Povetkin – were stinkers of epic proportions.

I wouldn't be surprised if all three were in the top ten worst HW title fights ever (not really Wlad's fault in the case of Haye).

Shouldn't effect how he's rated in theory, but probably does.

Yeah that's a good point. I doubt any except for the most hardcore of hardcore Boxing historians would ever revisit those fights, and those amongst us who saw them live will probably never watch them again.

It does tend to boost your legacy if the fights you're in are particularly memorable, and action filled.

[Ezzard]

I figure David Haye could potentially be a Hall of Famer, but he isn't in now, and if he is in it's barely. I don't think Klitschko has any wins over any Hall of Famers, but he undoubtedly is a Hall of Famer himself because in spite of being dominant in an era with few Hall of Fame worthy opponents, he nonetheless was the best among them for a long, long time.

As well as the weak era, the biggest fights he had as champion – Ibragimov (was a big deal at the time as first unification in years, big push from HBO), Haye and Povetkin – were stinkers of epic proportions.

I wouldn't be surprised if all three were in the top ten worst HW title fights ever (not really Wlad's fault in the case of Haye).

Shouldn't effect how he's rated in theory, but probably does.

Yeah that's a good point. I doubt any except for the most hardcore of hardcore Boxing historians would ever revisit those fights, and those amongst us who saw them live will probably never watch them again.

It does tend to boost your legacy if the fights you're in are particularly memorable, and action filled.

True. I guess it should too. Didn't hurt Mayweather though.

[pound per pound]

Hi there Broughton, hope all is well.

I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali. How do you see them in the pantheon of greats. And Usyk? He seems like a fantastic fighter to me. Up there with anyone I've seen in the division since following the sport.

- I've posted this list of Boxrec ranked heavies at the time the usual emasculates howling over Vit fighting Shannon Briggs as a sample of then and now boxing idiocy. The IBHOF first inaugurates were 1990 about the time the Ks were making big waves in Ama boxing. It's a poor copy of the long time Baseball HOF established in the 1930s, but fact is they're both a cross of beauty contests and Oscars. John Wayne didn't win an Oscar until he was an ol'man in his last cancerous days appearing in True Grit, a performance that had me howling like it was a such Laurel and Hardy romp.

Currently I'd go 1-Joe Louis, 2a&b-The Klitschkos, 4- Big George, 5-Jack Dempsey...It's a scramble after that.

Ironically Big George set a record for winning a title after a 10 year absence from boxing similar to Vit's 4 year absence before going straight into a WBC title fight vs Champion Sam Peter whom he KOed.

*** Boxrec rankings as of September 5th, 2010 while Vitali, Wlad, and David Haye were all putting together their fights.

The (notes) are mine of course:

1. Wlad

2. Vitali

3. Haye (already backed out of one signed and sealed contract and refused recent 50/50 offer by the Klitschkos, signing to defend against Audley Harrison in spite of repeated denials that he was even in negotiations)
4. Adamek (pending to allow cuts to heal, but apparently fighting Maddalone in Dec)
5. Chagaev (beat badly by Wlad and currently Haye’s mandatory)
6. Povetkin (refused to sign negotiated agreement to challenge in Wlad’s last defense, thus losing his 2 yr long mandatory ranking, not to mention his trainer, Teddy Atlas, says Povetkin is not yet ready to challenge for the title.)
7. Valuev (interesting deal was almost put together against Vitali, but out into next year with left shoulder/wrist surgery)
8. Peter (beat badly by Wlad 2x/Vitali 1x)
9. Thompson (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
10. Chambers (beat badly by Wlad and still rebuilding)
11. Arreola (beat badly by Vitali and still rebuilding)
12. Dimitrenko (new EBU champ, but turned down Klitschko offers, maybe building into a much bigger promotion in the next year of two)
13. Gomez (beat badly by Vitali and a last ditch opponent for now)
14. Sexton (busy being knocked out by Chisora)
15. Boytsov (maybe in the future, but only 24 and shaking off the rust after coming back from hand surgery, now is not his time, maybe a year or two in a bigger promotion)
16. Austin (beat badly by Wlad with no following)
17. Helenius (very promising prospect recently breaking into fringe contender. Maybe a year or two away in a much bigger promotion)
18. Solis (chubby growing into a blimp with promoter problems looking like he’s moving to challenge for the WBA cheese belt, not the Klitschkos)
19. Pianeta (who dat?)
20. T Ibragimov (The lesser talented of the Russian Iggys, his cousin already lost a shutout against Wlad)
21. Sosnowski (beat badly by Vitali and rebuilding against Dimitrenko)
22. Ustinov (undefeated Russian Bigfoot monster promoted by Ks and wants a Kbro. I’m guessing Vitali’s retirement fight if he makes it past Briggs and can’t sign Haye or Valuev)
23. Holyfield (Oh, brother, where art thou buried? Jeez…..)
24. Platov (who? See Pianeta!)
25. Johnson (beat worse than badly by Vitali……..please, watching Vitali try to stuff a giant squash into a blender would be better stuffing for a Saturday night turkey……..nevermore…….nevermore…….)

So, thusly informed, now say HELLO to one Shannon The Cannon Briggs, lifelong asthmaholic, part time wastrel, yet all while breaking the all time first round KO record first officially recorded by Jack Dempsey in his all time tear through the heavy division. Briggs has 31 first round KOs, unofficially 32 but for failing a post fight drug test, probably a positive test result for ganja. Briggs is unabashedly Jamaican after all.

Briggs is a strange one alright. He was a dynamic, charismatic young personality who won the ‘Dream’ “Lineal” heavyweight title with a dubious decision over the nearing 50 yr old Big George Foreman, then was knocked out in a ferocious slugfest against WBC champ Lennox Lewis in his very next bout. Instead of rebuilding, he partied hardy and let his training and weight go, thus was written off as a wasted talent.

In spite of all the above shortcomings, many years later he managed to renew “The Dream” when Briggs lifted the WBO title from the then highly regarded Siarhei Liakhovich with a Hail Mary last second knockout in the 12th round, a title that Briggs promptly dropped in his first defense. He then retired to hit the all you can eat buffets for 2 yrs before coming back hard with 4 straight 1st rd Kos.

How about Usyk? Are you a fan?

Hey, in Briggs defense some of those buffet's were out of this world.

One thing is clear the Klitschko's did not earn their bones by beatng up the old and tired bodies of Holyfeild or Tyson. Or Bowe.

[DrDuke]

Oh my, today I'm a rare guest on this forum, but here I open it again and, guess what, the Alpy boi is still butthurting about the Klits.

The guy never gets tired FFS.

[Les Norton]

Am I right in saying.......?

Neither of them beat a boxer in the IBHOF.
Neither of them beat the number one in the division.
Wladimir lost to Ross Purrity who's record was 24-13-1 going into the fight. To find a heavyweight champion with a loss to a guy who had a 64% win rate or less, at any point in their career, you would have to go back to Leon Spinks.

The IBHOF is littered with people with records that are way inferior to the Klitschko’s.
Flash Elorde lost or drew a quarter of his fights, Fritzie Zivic lost 65 fights, Joey Maxim lost 29, Joey Giardello lost 29 etc……they all obviously had a few bad nights on there careers, so did the Klitschkos.
You might be right with your carefully selected criteria, but they were both really good fighters

[keithmoonhangover]

Am I right in saying.......?

Neither of them beat a boxer in the IBHOF.
Neither of them beat the number one in the division.
Wladimir lost to Ross Purrity who's record was 24-13-1 going into the fight. To find a heavyweight champion with a loss to a guy who had a 64% win rate or less, at any point in their career, you would have to go back to Leon Spinks.

The IBHOF is littered with people with records that are way inferior to the Klitschko’s.
Flash Elorde lost or drew a quarter of his fights, Fritzie Zivic lost 65 fights, Joey Maxim lost 29, Joey Giardello lost 29 etc……they all obviously had a few bad nights on there careers, so did the Klitschkos.
You might be right with your carefully selected criteria, but they were both really good fighters

Do Flash Elorde, Fritzie Zivic, Joey Maxim and Joey Giardello have wins against Hall of Famers?

[Ambling Alp II]

What lot of people who don't know boxing history don't realize is how boxing was much different during these guy's eras. Usually, these guys fought some tough competition on their way up. They didn't automatically start 20-0 like modern prospects.
While they were a contender, they would often fight other contenders in non-titles fight. This doesn't happen in modern times.
They would take fights on short notice. Not uncommon for a guy to fight several times a year, sometimes less than a month between fights. They often fought for a long after their primes. Of course they are going to have a lot of losses.

Elorde beat 2 guys in the HOF
Zivic beat 5.
Maxim beat 3.
Giardello beat 3. He had a draw with another.

[pound per pound]

What lot of people who don't know boxing history don't realize is how boxing was much different during these guy's eras. Usually, these guys fought some tough competition on their way up. They didn't automatically start 20-0 like modern prospects.
While they were a contender, they would often fight other contenders in non-titles fight. This doesn't happen in modern times.
They would take fights on short notice. Not uncommon for a guy to fight several times a year, sometimes less than a month between fights. They often fought for a long after their primes. Of course they are going to have a lot of losses.

Elorde beat 2 guys in the HOF
Zivic beat 5.
Maxim beat 3.
Giardello beat 3. He had a draw with another.

Well speaking for myself I am aware that times were different. In a modern sense boxing is now a global competition. Hence it is a greater talent pool. However as you pointed out, fighters definitely fought more back then.

So what is the same? I prefer to use Ring Magazine Ratings as they have been around for 100 years. They generally rank guys well in their top ten rankings, though there are some real head scratchers in the rankings on occasion.

Still it is the best subjective ranking system in my opinion, and one rich with history.

If we were to pull the ranking of fighters when they fought them we would get a better picture of the wins and losses vs quality guys.

What is Elorde's, Zivic's, Maxim's and Giardello's record vs. the top ten ring magazine ranked fighters?

What is Klitshcko's record vs. the top ten ring magazine fighters?

They both have records, and in my opinion the best ones are the fighters with the highest winning percentages. Whether they fought them six times as I think Beterbeiv has or twenty five times. Does that make sense?

[keithmoonhangover]

What lot of people who don't know boxing history don't realize is how boxing was much different during these guy's eras. Usually, these guys fought some tough competition on their way up. They didn't automatically start 20-0 like modern prospects.
While they were a contender, they would often fight other contenders in non-titles fight. This doesn't happen in modern times.
They would take fights on short notice. Not uncommon for a guy to fight several times a year, sometimes less than a month between fights. They often fought for a long after their primes. Of course they are going to have a lot of losses.

Elorde beat 2 guys in the HOF
Zivic beat 5.
Maxim beat 3.
Giardello beat 3. He had a draw with another.

Well speaking for myself I am aware that times were different. In a modern sense boxing is now a global competition. Hence it is a greater talent pool. However as you pointed out, fighters definitely fought more back then.

So what is the same? I prefer to use Ring Magazine Ratings as they have been around for 100 years. They generally rank guys well in their top ten rankings, though there are some real head scratchers in the rankings on occasion.

Still it is the best subjective ranking system in my opinion, and one rich with history.

If we were to pull the ranking of fighters when they fought them we would get a better picture of the wins and losses vs quality guys.

What is Elorde's, Zivic's, Maxim's and Giardello's record vs. the top ten ring magazine ranked fighters?

What is Klitshcko's record vs. the top ten ring magazine fighters?

They both have records, and in my opinion the best ones are the fighters with the highest winning percentages. Whether they fought them six times as I think Beterbeiv has or twenty five times. Does that make sense?

Looks like you've got yourself some homework.

[Ambling Alp II]

Don't agree with the talent pool part. The United States is by far the biggest country that is into boxing. Historically they have the have the most success. However, there are far less boxers in the United States than there was at one time.

As for looking at win/loss records against Top 10 opponents: You have to keep in mind there at least four serious problems with doing that;

1. The level of quality can vary widely. (i,e.) Klitschko's in most of era in the heavyweight division was awful. Most of the guys in the top would not have been in other eras. The middleweight division was strong in Giardello's era,
2. You have to count losses against guys not in the Top 10. Klitschko has three.
3. You have to consider if the guy was near his prime when he was fighting a guy in the top 10.
4. You are giving a guy just as much credit for beat a guy ranked #1 as a beating an opponent number 10.

Having said all that, looking win/loss records against Top 10 opponents can be fun.

[margaret thatcher]

so reluctant

[Ambling Alp II]

I have never started a thread on either of the Klitschkos. People talk about them all the time so sometimes I join in. You don't like Jack Johnson and have started what, 5 threads over the years ripping him?

I would much rather talk about Joey Giardello or Ernie Schaaf or Nino Benvenuti. Do you want to start a thread on one of them?

[margaret thatcher]

you're right, i love talking about jack johnson, i would never claim total bs about being 'so reluctant' to discuss him like you do with your fave ukrainian bros - you just cant resist them!

[Les Norton]

Am I right in saying.......?

Neither of them beat a boxer in the IBHOF.
Neither of them beat the number one in the division.
Wladimir lost to Ross Purrity who's record was 24-13-1 going into the fight. To find a heavyweight champion with a loss to a guy who had a 64% win rate or less, at any point in their career, you would have to go back to Leon Spinks.

The IBHOF is littered with people with records that are way inferior to the Klitschko’s.
Flash Elorde lost or drew a quarter of his fights, Fritzie Zivic lost 65 fights, Joey Maxim lost 29, Joey Giardello lost 29 etc……they all obviously had a few bad nights on there careers, so did the Klitschkos.
You might be right with your carefully selected criteria, but they were both really good fighters

Do Flash Elorde, Fritzie Zivic, Joey Maxim and Joey Giardello have wins against Hall of Famers?

No idea mate, because I’m not really interested.
As I said, you have carefully selected criteria to support your argument.
That’s just stacking a case.
My view is that the HoF is a poor criteria and that the Klitschko brothers are better fighters than you give them credit for.

[keithmoonhangover]

The IBHOF is littered with people with records that are way inferior to the Klitschko’s.
Flash Elorde lost or drew a quarter of his fights, Fritzie Zivic lost 65 fights, Joey Maxim lost 29, Joey Giardello lost 29 etc……they all obviously had a few bad nights on there careers, so did the Klitschkos.
You might be right with your carefully selected criteria, but they were both really good fighters

Do Flash Elorde, Fritzie Zivic, Joey Maxim and Joey Giardello have wins against Hall of Famers?

No idea mate, because I’m not really interested.
As I said, you have carefully selected criteria to support your argument.
That’s just stacking a case.
My view is that the HoF is a poor criteria and that the Klitschko brothers are better fighters than you give them credit for.

Probably like all of us, I rate boxers where I rate them and I think I'm right. But it's a very subjective thing. I mean, there's a poster on here who doesn't rank Muhammad Ali in the top five heavyweights of all time, despite beating Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Nowt as queer as folk and all that.

[Les Norton]

Do Flash Elorde, Fritzie Zivic, Joey Maxim and Joey Giardello have wins against Hall of Famers?

No idea mate, because I’m not really interested.
As I said, you have carefully selected criteria to support your argument.
That’s just stacking a case.
My view is that the HoF is a poor criteria and that the Klitschko brothers are better fighters than you give them credit for.

Probably like all of us, I rate boxers where I rate them and I think I'm right. But it's a very subjective thing. I mean, there's a poster on here who doesn't rank Muhammad Ali in the top five heavyweights of all time, despite beating Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Nowt as queer as folk and all that.

Fair call, I agree with you there.
And Ali will be top 5 after hell freezes over. He and Joe Louis are my top 2.
I just think the HOF is overcooked.
I loved Thunder Gatti, exciting blood and guts warrior, but very limited in some ways. Yet he was a first ballot inductee? No way

[pound per pound]

What lot of people who don't know boxing history don't realize is how boxing was much different during these guy's eras. Usually, these guys fought some tough competition on their way up. They didn't automatically start 20-0 like modern prospects.
While they were a contender, they would often fight other contenders in non-titles fight. This doesn't happen in modern times.
They would take fights on short notice. Not uncommon for a guy to fight several times a year, sometimes less than a month between fights. They often fought for a long after their primes. Of course they are going to have a lot of losses.

Elorde beat 2 guys in the HOF
Zivic beat 5.
Maxim beat 3.
Giardello beat 3. He had a draw with another.

Well speaking for myself I am aware that times were different. In a modern sense boxing is now a global competition. Hence it is a greater talent pool. However as you pointed out, fighters definitely fought more back then.

So what is the same? I prefer to use Ring Magazine Ratings as they have been around for 100 years. They generally rank guys well in their top ten rankings, though there are some real head scratchers in the rankings on occasion.

Still it is the best subjective ranking system in my opinion, and one rich with history.

If we were to pull the ranking of fighters when they fought them we would get a better picture of the wins and losses vs quality guys.

What is Elorde's, Zivic's, Maxim's and Giardello's record vs. the top ten ring magazine ranked fighters?

What is Klitshcko's record vs. the top ten ring magazine fighters?

They both have records, and in my opinion the best ones are the fighters with the highest winning percentages. Whether they fought them six times as I think Beterbeiv has or twenty five times. Does that make sense?

Looks like you've got yourself some homework.

Wladimir Klitschko (Dr. Steelhammer) is a 48-year-old retired Ukrainian professional boxer. He is a former heavyweight world champion with 5 world-title wins. In a career spanning 20 years, 5 months, and 13 days, Klitschko amassed a record of 64-5, which includes 53 wins via KO, 19 of which were in world-title fights. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame (IBHOF) in 2021.

Now how many title fights did the others win?

I like the real Keith Moon, but you come acroos as one who does not like Klitschko.

This guy is fair on them, and wrote this article below.

https://iframe.BS.com/measured ... li--148729

You could say school is in session.

[keithmoonhangover]

Well speaking for myself I am aware that times were different. In a modern sense boxing is now a global competition. Hence it is a greater talent pool. However as you pointed out, fighters definitely fought more back then.

So what is the same? I prefer to use Ring Magazine Ratings as they have been around for 100 years. They generally rank guys well in their top ten rankings, though there are some real head scratchers in the rankings on occasion.

Still it is the best subjective ranking system in my opinion, and one rich with history.

If we were to pull the ranking of fighters when they fought them we would get a better picture of the wins and losses vs quality guys.

What is Elorde's, Zivic's, Maxim's and Giardello's record vs. the top ten ring magazine ranked fighters?

What is Klitshcko's record vs. the top ten ring magazine fighters?

They both have records, and in my opinion the best ones are the fighters with the highest winning percentages. Whether they fought them six times as I think Beterbeiv has or twenty five times. Does that make sense?

Looks like you've got yourself some homework.

Wladimir Klitschko (Dr. Steelhammer) is a 48-year-old retired Ukrainian professional boxer. He is a former heavyweight world champion with 5 world-title wins. In a career spanning 20 years, 5 months, and 13 days, Klitschko amassed a record of 64-5, which includes 53 wins via KO, 19 of which were in world-title fights. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame (IBHOF) in 2021.

Now how many title fights did the others win?

I like the real Keith Moon, but you come acroos as one who does not like Klitschko.

This guy is fair on them, and wrote this article below.

https://iframe.BS.com/measured-against- ... li--148729

You could say school is in session.

Firstly, Wladimir Klitschko is a great guy and a true gentleman of the sport. I have no issue what-so-ever with him as a person and like him a lot. But like with Mike 'The Rapist' Tyson, how I feel about him, has absolutely nothing to do with how I rate his career.

The problem is, when you write about 5 world-title wins and 19 of which were in world-title fights it highlights the madness of the modern era. It also tarnishes Wladimir's record when comparing it to Flash Elorde, Fritzie Zivic, Joey Maxim and Joey Giardello, because their title fights were, for want of a better word, real. They were for the world championship and not for some nonsense belt with three initials on it.