BoxRec

Outside the all-time top 10 at heavy, but nailed on top 3 at cruiser.

Grilling Machine wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 17:46 Outside the all-time top 10 at heavy, but nailed on top 3 at cruiser.

Hammer , nail on head

what do we think of this take, james toney above usyk at cruiser

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 10:48

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Sep 2021, 17:39 simple question then

whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?

straight up answer bruh

I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 19:25 id say for sure 1 or 2 at cruiser , with holy. does anyone else realistically have an argument over him there?

Holyfield and Usyk's achievements at Cruiserweight are remarkably similar. They both went unbeaten through the division, and beat all the key names there was to beat while fighting there.

They both pretty much left no stone unturned in that division before going up to Heavyweight.

The gap between Usyk, Holyfield and whoever would be 3rd best is huge. Usyk and Holyfield are the Top 2 guys ever in the divisions history by miles.

true dat

Usyk's number 1 at Cruiserweight for me. His quality of opposition is unsurpassed and his skills are formidable.

Haye needed at least two more big wins at cruiser, and might've held on for them had the financial landscape been different at the time.

There was talk of Bell (pre-Mormeck) and Cunningham before he moved up, and he'd have run into Adamek, Drozd and/or Wlodarczyk had he stayed. Toney was obviously better than his record at cruiser, but that's what we have to review.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 19:28

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 19:25 id say for sure 1 or 2 at cruiser , with holy. does anyone else realistically have an argument over him there?

Holyfield and Usyk's achievements at Cruiserweight are remarkably similar. They both went unbeaten through the division, and beat all the key names there was to beat while fighting there.

They both pretty much left no stone unturned in that division before going up to Heavyweight.

The gap between Usyk, Holyfield and whoever would be 3rd best is huge. Usyk and Holyfield are the Top 2 guys ever in the divisions history by miles.

The one good thing about Usyk is that he was never motivated by money. Yeh he;s had big purses now, and he deserves them.. But he's never had an issue with purses. Similar to Loma, who even gave some of his own purse to Teo to make that fight happen.

Not being motivated by money, means you'll take any fight, and Usyk did just that.

Usyk and Holyfield is a toss up between them as to who the Number 1 Cruiser in history is, no question.

His Heavyweight ranking will be debatable purely because he hasn't spent that long in it, but he's beaten the consensus previous number 1 in the division twice. AJ in his own back yard, and in a rematch, and the Dubois win is currently ageing extremely well. If he was to retire now, his P4P ranking has to be high. But inevitably, he'll lose, and like most fighters, people will pick at his defeats as a way to bash him.

But it's a privilege to see him work, he's an absolutely great fighter and engaging personality.

Holyfield bulked up too! Does that hurt his legacy?
And lost to Bowe, Lewis, Moore, Ruiz and Valuev

Of my lifetime he's up there with Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, Vitali and Wlad.

Coco wrote: ↑24 Dec 2024, 05:52 Holyfield bulked up too! Does that hurt his legacy?
And lost to Bowe, Lewis, Moore, Ruiz and Valuev

When you say " Holyfield bulked up too! "

lets be blunt he took sterioids to improve his strength / power etc .

so yes its damaging to his legacy and for me puts him way down the list

stevec@france wrote: ↑24 Dec 2024, 07:54

Coco wrote: ↑24 Dec 2024, 05:52 Holyfield bulked up too! Does that hurt his legacy?
And lost to Bowe, Lewis, Moore, Ruiz and Valuev

When you say " Holyfield bulked up too! "

lets be blunt he took sterioids to improve his strength / power etc .

so yes its damaging to his legacy and for me puts him way down the list

That wasn't him! That was Evan Fields.

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑24 Dec 2024, 08:09

stevec@france wrote: ↑24 Dec 2024, 07:54

Coco wrote: ↑24 Dec 2024, 05:52 Holyfield bulked up too! Does that hurt his legacy?
And lost to Bowe, Lewis, Moore, Ruiz and Valuev

When you say " Holyfield bulked up too! "

lets be blunt he took sterioids to improve his strength / power etc .

so yes its damaging to his legacy and for me puts him way down the list

That wasn't him! That was Evan Fields.

ah my bad :

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 07:44 Very very highly, although actually I do think the modern giants flatter him slightly since they're not too highly skilled. Would have a much tougher time against similarly sized heavies like Ali / Holyfield / Holmes, and would have great difficulty against someone like Lennox who knows how to use his height, reach and power effectively. But the fact Usyk is even in the conversation with those greats speaks volumes. Genuinely elite career and a bloody awesome guy to boot

Totally agree with everything you said. And your right,today's heavyweights are pretty poorly skilled. And have to say,imo,this is by far the worst era in terms of heavyweight talent.

the 2000s had worse times than this. when guys like calvin brock, eddie chambers, jameel mccline, etc were the contenders. when an ancient holyfield got robbed vs valuev according to most, valuev was ranked like top 3 at that time. pulev also got into the top 2 or 3 in a lot of rankings a few years later.

even just recently as of a few years ago the division was worse. wilder was floating around the #2 spot, fury was still emerging in his comeback, and usyk hadnt really entered yet. dubois was still green, zhang and kaybayel were stagnating or sitting out, etc. but fury got his act together, usyk entered to great effect, dubois has grown, and talented guys who were on the shelf or not getting the right fights have gotten opportunities now with the saudis

THE GOAT
or at least the modern GOAT
Completed the entire boxing game, whilst having many obstacles against him. Zero excuses just hard work and results.

Top 5 ever. We will see value and impact fully when he has departed the sport, imo.

Isn't longevity one of the markers of greatest?

It's worth noting he's only had 23 fights.

There are at least two major cruiserweights around.

And several emerging heavy contenders after the dubois rematch.

I'd like to see him defend at least 3 or 4 more times

Atm I don't have him in the hw top 20 purely for this reason. Two wins over Fury and Joshua is just not enough.

Inarguably an ATG.

The best Cruiser ever, if not, than easily #2.

At Heavy he has done enough to enter the top 10.

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑11 Jan 2025, 07:47 Isn't longevity one of the markers of greatest?

It's worth noting he's only had 23 fights.

There are at least two major cruiserweights around.

And several emerging heavy contenders after the dubois rematch.

I'd like to see him defend at least 3 or 4 more times

Atm I don't have him in the hw top 20 purely for this reason. Two wins over Fury and Joshua is just not enough.

dubois rematch adds 0 value to his record. he'd be beating someone he already widely stopped. someone who you don't seem to give him credit for anyway (mentioning only the fury and aj wins last sentence, even though he also ko'd dubois). how many people really think to themselves that usyk's all time ranking is limited by only having 1 win over dubois rather than 2? it makes no sense to me.

he's already beat the best guys out there, but if it's just about adding new names to add quantity to his record, the last guy he should go with is someone he already stopped. if he's fighting on, the best hw options would be parker if he beat dubois, or the zhang-kabayel winner.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 19:25 what do we think of this take, james toney above usyk at cruiser

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 10:48

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Sep 2021, 17:39 simple question then

whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?

straight up answer bruh

I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.

Holyfield was unbeaten at Cruiserweight.

Brute wrote: ↑12 Jan 2025, 02:34

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Dec 2024, 19:25 what do we think of this take, james toney above usyk at cruiser

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 10:48

I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.

Holyfield was unbeaten at Cruiserweight.

ya i know, what does that have to do with usyk vs toney?

Toney was at his best at middleweight and light heavyweight.

Cruiserweight Usyk is in the conversation for top 5.
Cruiser is relatively new so ATG? Could well be tbh alongside his stellar amateur career.

Now HW I’m for saying he’s the best of the last 10 years. Yes. He is.
But his resume at HW? Now we question Fury’s/AJ’s records. (Tbh I always have)

Would have been nice to see Usyk v a prime Wlad. I think he would have beaten him too tbh.
Mind you a prime Wlad beats both Fury and Aj convincingly. Hence my reticence in rating them in top 50 all time HW. Sorry nut huggers!

I got Usyk a top 20 all time HW. I’d have loved to have seen him v Evander. Now that would have been a great match up. Got Evander though.