BoxRec

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 15:05

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025, 12:45

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025, 12:23
Yes, it was a disgrace. So what? He is not the only fighter that had a disgraceful moment. It's how you come back from your former failures that makes you great.

Are you saying all fighters have to quit just at some point to be great?

George Foreman got knocked out from Muhammad Ali and embarrassed by Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later because deep in his heart, he knew he had to fight against prove that he was great.

He redeemed himself when in November 1994, took the crown in spectacular fashion from Michael Moore by knockout. That's what greatness is all about. Not too many guys can come back from deep failures. Foreman and Roberto Duran proved that you can.

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

Anyone who thinks Duran is the automatic winner here, needs to seriously study the career of Benny Leonard. Reminds me of the simpleton who once said to me "No way is Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest fighter of alltime, He lost 19 fights !"

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 06:51

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 15:05

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025, 12:45

Are you saying all fighters have to quit just at some point to be great?

George Foreman got knocked out from Muhammad Ali and embarrassed by Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later because deep in his heart, he knew he had to fight against prove that he was great.

He redeemed himself when in November 1994, took the crown in spectacular fashion from Michael Moore by knockout. That's what greatness is all about. Not too many guys can come back from deep failures. Foreman and Roberto Duran proved that you can.

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

And that is what makes it a huge difference. Duran established his greatness at lightweight and beating Leonard for the welterweight strap.
That enabled him, to get other opportunities that most other fighters would not have received after quitting like that.
There’s a big difference between getting beaten and doing what he did.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 16:48

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 16:42

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑06 Aug 2025, 17:02

Yeah, but he was also a quitter.

Good point. That does tarnish his legacy.
Usually, I have high esteem for the unbiased opinions of elmer, but since Ray Arcel goes with Leonard and Duran is a quitter, would have to lead towards Leonard. Wonder if there would have been any excuses made for Duran?

Another Duran hater, my gosh! I wonder if Duran was American.

Most fans don't care if a guy was an American or not. Duran quit, which left a sour taste in people's mouth. People paid money to see that fight. Would have been the same if he was an American.

American fans often like fighters that aren't American. They also often don't like fighters if they are an American. Depends on the guy, not where he is from.

Expug wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 10:04

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 06:51

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 15:05

George Foreman got knocked out from Muhammad Ali and embarrassed by Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later because deep in his heart, he knew he had to fight against prove that he was great.

He redeemed himself when in November 1994, took the crown in spectacular fashion from Michael Moore by knockout. That's what greatness is all about. Not too many guys can come back from deep failures. Foreman and Roberto Duran proved that you can.

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

And that is what makes it a huge difference. Duran established his greatness at lightweight and beating Leonard for the welterweight strap.
That enabled him, to get other opportunities that most other fighters would not have received after quitting like that.
There’s a big difference between getting beaten and doing what he did.

Yep.
and he should credit for impressive performances and ripped for quitting. Like anyone else should.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 06:51

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 15:05

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025, 12:45

Are you saying all fighters have to quit just at some point to be great?

George Foreman got knocked out from Muhammad Ali and embarrassed by Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later because deep in his heart, he knew he had to fight against prove that he was great.

He redeemed himself when in November 1994, took the crown in spectacular fashion from Michael Moore by knockout. That's what greatness is all about. Not too many guys can come back from deep failures. Foreman and Roberto Duran proved that you can.

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

George Foreman got embarrassed by Muhammad Ali and later Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later to prove that he was great, and he did.

Not too many boxers can come back from lowest points of their lives. You can count them with one finger.

Floyd Patterson redeemed himself
Muhammad Ali redeemed himself
Roberto Duran redeemed himself
So did Ruben Olivares and George Foreman.

Not too many guys can come back from a low point and be winners again.

But, Duran did it twice in extraordinary fashion. That's why he won more fans than in the beginning.

Seamus wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 09:50 Anyone who thinks Duran is the automatic winner here, needs to seriously study the career of Benny Leonard. Reminds me of the simpleton who once said to me "No way is Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest fighter of alltime, He lost 19 fights !"

A guy like that cannot beat Roberto Duran. End of story. Too primitive begin with.

Expug wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 10:04

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 06:51

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 15:05

George Foreman got knocked out from Muhammad Ali and embarrassed by Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later because deep in his heart, he knew he had to fight against prove that he was great.

He redeemed himself when in November 1994, took the crown in spectacular fashion from Michael Moore by knockout. That's what greatness is all about. Not too many guys can come back from deep failures. Foreman and Roberto Duran proved that you can.

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

And that is what makes it a huge difference. Duran established his greatness at lightweight and beating Leonard for the welterweight strap.
That enabled him, to get other opportunities that most other fighters would not have received after quitting like that.
There’s a big difference between getting beaten and doing what he did.

It's unexcusable what he did in New Orleans. Nobody denies that. He reached to a low point that even his own people that he considered his closest friends, deserted him.

But, you can't live with it forever. Roberto moved on and redeemed himself. Just like Floyd Patterson did. Just like Muhammad Ali did. And George Foreman and Ruben Olivares did.

Everybody got a low point. And No Mas Duran's low point. But, you don't give him credit that he redeemed himself. Everybody got a shot at redemption. Duran was no different.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:14

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 06:51

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Aug 2025, 15:05

George Foreman got knocked out from Muhammad Ali and embarrassed by Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later because deep in his heart, he knew he had to fight against prove that he was great.

He redeemed himself when in November 1994, took the crown in spectacular fashion from Michael Moore by knockout. That's what greatness is all about. Not too many guys can come back from deep failures. Foreman and Roberto Duran proved that you can.

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

George Foreman got embarrassed by Muhammad Ali and later Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later to prove that he was great, and he did.

Not too many boxers can come back from lowest points of their lives. You can count them with one finger.

Floyd Patterson redeemed himself
Muhammad Ali redeemed himself
Roberto Duran redeemed himself
So did Ruben Olivares and George Foreman.

Not too many guys can come back from a low point and be winners again.

But, Duran did it twice in extraordinary fashion. That's why he won more fans than in the beginning.

The others didn't just quit in a fight where they weren't even hurt. You're only defending him because of your bromance with him.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:29

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:14

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 06:51

Foreman got beat and took his beating like a man. He didn't quit in the middle of a round like a petulant child.

George Foreman got embarrassed by Muhammad Ali and later Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later to prove that he was great, and he did.

Not too many boxers can come back from lowest points of their lives. You can count them with one finger.

Floyd Patterson redeemed himself
Muhammad Ali redeemed himself
Roberto Duran redeemed himself
So did Ruben Olivares and George Foreman.

Not too many guys can come back from a low point and be winners again.

But, Duran did it twice in extraordinary fashion. That's why he won more fans than in the beginning.

The others didn't just quit in a fight where they weren't even hurt. You're only defending him because of your bromance with him.

All of them had low points. They felt embarrassed, ashamed and forgotten. Ask them about their losses and they will tell you. It hurt.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:16

Seamus wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 09:50 Anyone who thinks Duran is the automatic winner here, needs to seriously study the career of Benny Leonard. Reminds me of the simpleton who once said to me "No way is Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest fighter of alltime, He lost 19 fights !"

A guy like that cannot beat Roberto Duran. End of story. Too primitive begin with.

I think I speak for almost everyone when I say "Stop with the primitive crap".

Benny Leonard was not at all "primitive". Boxing did not magically get better in the 1960s. there have literally no new punches, or strategies since well before Leonard's time. So shut up about the "primitive" crap. People are not buying that crap.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:31

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:29

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:14

George Foreman got embarrassed by Muhammad Ali and later Jimmy Young. He had to come back ten years later to prove that he was great, and he did.

Not too many boxers can come back from lowest points of their lives. You can count them with one finger.

Floyd Patterson redeemed himself
Muhammad Ali redeemed himself
Roberto Duran redeemed himself
So did Ruben Olivares and George Foreman.

Not too many guys can come back from a low point and be winners again.

But, Duran did it twice in extraordinary fashion. That's why he won more fans than in the beginning.

The others didn't just quit in a fight where they weren't even hurt. You're only defending him because of your bromance with him.

All of them had low points. They felt embarrassed, ashamed and forgotten. Ask them about their losses and they will tell you. It hurt.

There are low points and there are low points. Losing to a better fighter is one thing. Losing to a better fighter and quitting is worse.
What Duran did before the Leonard fight counts. When he quit when Leonard was schooling him certainly counts. What he did after that counts as well. It all counts. The good and the bad. And the levels of the good and the levels of the bad all counts.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 08:40

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:16

Seamus wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 09:50 Anyone who thinks Duran is the automatic winner here, needs to seriously study the career of Benny Leonard. Reminds me of the simpleton who once said to me "No way is Sugar Ray Robinson the greatest fighter of alltime, He lost 19 fights !"

A guy like that cannot beat Roberto Duran. End of story. Too primitive begin with.

I think I speak for almost everyone when I say "Stop with the primitive crap".

Benny Leonard was not at all "primitive". Boxing did not magically get better in the 1960s. there have literally no new punches, or strategies since well before Leonard's time. So shut up about the "primitive" crap. People are not buying that crap.

That type of boxing ain't beating Roberto Duran. Too primitive, and too predictable.

I was watching Benny Leonard vs Lew Tendler. And I ask myself: with that style of boxing I am supposed to believe that this guy would beat the great Roberto Duran?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 08:46

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:31

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025, 18:29

The others didn't just quit in a fight where they weren't even hurt. You're only defending him because of your bromance with him.

All of them had low points. They felt embarrassed, ashamed and forgotten. Ask them about their losses and they will tell you. It hurt.

There are low points and there are low points. Losing to a better fighter is one thing. Losing to a better fighter and quitting is worse.
What Duran did before the Leonard fight counts. When he quit when Leonard was schooling him certainly counts. What he did after that counts as well. It all counts. The good and the bad. And the levels of the good and the levels of the bad all counts.

I have never said that it didn't count, mister. Sugar Ray Leonard was not better than Roberto Duran. That's a fallacy in your mind.

Duran proved to the world that he was better on the night of June 20, 1980 when he whupped the Golden Boy of America.

It was something that the American boxing media couldn't swallow good. It was a hard pill to swallow.

Everything after that was greed, money and betrayal. That's what all that No Mas was all about.

I don’t recall the American boxing media having a problem with Duran beating Leonard.
Duran put on a great performance no doubt.
But, you mentioned everybody getting a chance at redemption, what you’re not acknowledging, is one of the biggest problems with Duran quitting against Leonard, is the fact that Duran took away Leonard’s chance at any kind of redemption. He quit and that creates a what if? Situation that fans, fighters, everyone was angry about.

Expug wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 11:36 I don’t recall the American boxing media having a problem with Duran beating Leonard.
Duran put on a great performance no doubt.
But, you mentioned everybody getting a chance at redemption, what you’re not acknowledging, is one of the biggest problems with Duran quitting against Leonard, is the fact that Duran took away Leonard’s chance at any kind of redemption. He quit and that creates a what if? Situation that fans, fighters, everyone was angry about.

Sugar Ray Leonard brought up on himself. He planned and calculated with his management team led by Mike Trainer and American boxing promoter extraordinary Don King (the greatest boxing promoter of all-time), to go to Panama City and negotiate behind Roberto Duran's back at the offices of Carlos Eleta, Duran's manager.

It was done hush-hush, Eleta got the $8 million and betrayed his own champion. I don't blame Leonard's management one bit. It was a great strategy. They were DESPERATE for a redemption. It couldn't stay that way, due to what Duran did to him in Montreal by disrespecting Leonard and his wife. I don't condone what Duran did either. That was not right. But that was the way it was. That's what really happened. They caught Duran OFF GUARD due to a betrayal and money.

But, Leonard had to do that quickly as possible. And Duran's manager was so stupid that greed, betrayal and money got the best of him.

But, to say that Leonard was better? I don't accept that. Never did. Never will due to what really happened behind the scenes.

I didn’t say Leonard was better.
I said he never got any real chance at redeeming himself when Duran quit.
Again, if Duran was out of shape, that’s on him.

Is 5 months really enough time for Duran to get ready for a title defense?
Has anyone else ever been able to do it in such short amount of time ?

How many times was an opponent outboxing Benny Leonard to the point where he actually quit during a fight?

Expug wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 13:44 I didn’t say Leonard was better.
I said he never got any real chance at redeeming himself when Duran quit.
Again, if Duran was out of shape, that’s on him.

He was betrayed by his own manager

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 14:05 Is 5 months really enough time for Duran to get ready for a title defense?
Has anyone else ever been able to do it in such short amount of time ?

How many times was an opponent outboxing Benny Leonard to the point where he actually quit during a fight?

Benny Leonard was never betrayed by his own manager.

Probably not. He didn’t party like Duran between fights either.

Roberto Duran was known for massive weight gains between fights when he was a Light Weight. I remember an article once where it said he had to shed 50 lbs. Lots of stories of him just laying around feeding his face between fights, and that's pretty amazing when you consider how often he fought. I'm guessing the 50 lb weight gain occured when he had a few months between bouts.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 16:45

Expug wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 13:44 I didn’t say Leonard was better.
I said he never got any real chance at redeeming himself when Duran quit.
Again, if Duran was out of shape, that’s on him.

He was betrayed by his own manager

Did his manager lock him in a room with loud music, pretty women, lots of food and booze?

Or did he just prepare for the rematch less than his opponent did?

You make your own mistakes in life. Nobody makes 'em for you.

Even if Duran was never told he was fighting Leonard again less than six months later, he must’ve said to himself after the verdict was announced, that he’d be fighting him again soon. The fight was outstanding, and by no means one sided. Lots of money was made.
If I’m Duran, I’m not gonna say “ hey this was a great fight, fans thoroughly enjoyed it, everyone involved wants to see it again, we made millions, why don’t I go get drunk for a few months and get out of shape”.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑13 Aug 2025, 12:42

elmersalsa wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 16:45

Expug wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025, 13:44 I didn’t say Leonard was better.
I said he never got any real chance at redeeming himself when Duran quit.
Again, if Duran was out of shape, that’s on him.

He was betrayed by his own manager

Did his manager lock him in a room with loud music, pretty women, lots of food and booze?

Or did he just prepare for the rematch less than his opponent did?

You make your own mistakes in life. Nobody makes 'em for you.

Thanks to his greedy manager, Carlos Eleta, who betrayed his own fighter, his own champion for $8 million dollars.

At a hush-hush meeting with Mike Trainer, Sugar Ray Leonard's manager, promoter Don King and Eleta, were able to bait Duran's manager with $8 million dollars. That was money that Eleta never saw before. He took the money without consulting his fighter and accepted the rematch behind Duran's back.

Why Duran wasn't in the negotiations?
Why he wasn't told that the fight was signed?
Why he never consulted with his champion about the negotiations and tell him heads up what's going on before signing?
Why they gave his greedy manager $8 million dollars?
Why they didn't give Duran time to train for even terms?
Why Eleta deserted Duran after that No Mas?

It was all about greediness, money and betrayal. Duran got hoodwinked by his own manager. Those are facts and no fiction.

That No Mas was nothing else about getting the title back to America.