BoxRec

[quote="Sherlock"]1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Sugar Ray Robinson (was too inconsistent at middle to be my #1)
5. Charley Burley (one of the most avoided fighters ever)
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Tiger Flowers
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Tony Zale
10. Billy Conn
(on the bubble- Marcel Cerdan, Emile Griffith, and Dick Tiger).

This is an exelent list almost exactly the same as mine. I would have Hagler a little lower.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Stanley Ketchell
4. Jake Lamotta
5. Mickey Walker
6. Carlos Monzon
7. Marvin Hagler
8. Nino Benvenuti
9. Paul Pender
10. Joey Giardello

1)Sugar Ray Leonard
2)Roy Jones Jr.
3)Marvin Hagler
4)SUGAR RAY LEONARD ( ??????? NOONE EVEN MENTIONED HIM!?!)
5)Bernard Hopkins
6)Jake Lamotta
7)Sam Langford
8)Felix Trinidad
9)Harry Greb
10) Dick Tiger

Rory McCloskey wrote:1)Sugar Ray Leonard
2)Roy Jones Jr.
3)Marvin Hagler
4)SUGAR RAY LEONARD ( ??????? NOONE EVEN MENTIONED HIM!?!)
5)Bernard Hopkins
6)Jake Lamotta
7)Sam Langford
8)Felix Trinidad
9)Harry Greb
10) Dick Tiger

No Carlos Monzon? Whats your reasoning for leaving him out of your top ten?

I am also surprised you rate Felix Trinidad so high at Middleweight as his best result at that weight is beating William Joppy. Surely other fighters that you have not mentioned such as Emile Griffith, Marcel Cerdan, Jock McAvoy, Bob Fitzsimmons, Gene Fullmer, Rodrigo Valdez, Tiger Flowers and Rocky Graziano amongst others achieved much more at Middleweight?

I personnaly would not rate Ray Leonard a top ten Middleweight as he had so few fights at that weight.

A assume you meant Ray ROBINSON as you no. 1?

Dan Hanley's All-time "middleweight" CONTENDER'S list... pretty darn impressive, informative and well researched - if you ask me!

MIDDLE
Len Harvey (Eng) (1)
Jock McAvoy (Eng) (0)
Steve Belloise (USA) (2)
Archie Moore (USA) (0)
Georgie Abrams (USA) (1)
Holman Williams (USA) (0)
Charley Burley (USA) (0)
Jack Chase (USA) (0)
Lloyd Marshall (USA) (0)
Spider Webb (USA) (1)
Joey Archer (USA) (2)
Luis Rodriguez (Cuba) (1)
Bennie Briscoe (USA) (3)
Ayub Kalule (Uganda) (0)
Herol Graham (Eng) (2)


Len Harvey, a pro at 12 years of age enjoyed his biggest success at Lt. Heavy but had an outstanding run as a Middleweight. Losing to Marcel Thil for the world title, a man he had already beaten, Harvey also went head to head with Vince Dundee, Ben Jeby, Dave Shade, Jock McAvoy and Jack Hood. McAvoy, himself an outstanding Middle cum Lt. Heavy, killed any chances of a title shot for himself by blowing away newly crowned NBA Middle king Babe Risko in one round in a non-title affair. Steve Belloise, one hard banger out of NY, lost a couple of squeakers to Ken Overlin for the title but beat among others, Ceferino Garcia, Anton Christoforidis, Al Hostak, Georgie Abrams and Robert Villemain. Archie Moore, thought of only as a Lt. Heavy/Heavy, had a very competitive run at 160, holding a spot in the top ten from '40-'43 and besting Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase and Nate Bolden along the way. Georgie Abrams, not a big banger but sooooo talented. Gave Zale a run for it for the vacant world title and beat Billy Soose (3 times), Lou Broulliard, Teddy Yarosz, Steve Belloise and drew with Charley Burley. Holman Williams, one of the many great black fighters of the '40s avoided by every champ unless it was scheduled for 10. In a stellar career, Williams beat Kid Tunero, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase and Archie Moore. Charley Burley, what can be written about Burley that hasn't already been written? Had Archie Moore down twice and beat him over ten. Also beat Billy Soose, Jack Chase and Holman Williams. One might say the frozen title during the war years was his undoing, but even a certain Mr. Robinson wasn't going near this guy. Jack Chase, the list seems endless regarding these largely avoided fighters. Chase had to content himself with the Calif. State title during the 40s and the fact that he held wins over Moore, Marshall, Eddie Booker and 'Kid' Matthews. Lloyd Marshall, his record is a who's who of world class Lt. Heavies and Middles. At 160 he KO'd Ezzard Charles and beat Burley, Williams, Chase, LaMotta and Overlin. Ellsworth (Spider) Webb was one rough customer who made a habit of interrupting ambitions. Beat future champs Tiger, Giardello and Downes while giving Gene Fullmer two rough goes of it, the latter bout for the title. Joey Archer, 'couldn't break an egg' they used to say, but was so slick. Beat Tiger, Moyer, Hurricane Carter and retired Sugar Ray over 10 rounds. He then lost two controversial decisions to Emile Griffith with the title on the line. Not bad for no punch. Luis Rodriguez, the former Welter king went through the Middles of his day like a dose of salts. Battled Benvenuti to the wire for the 160 lb. title until running into a one-puncher in the 11th. Beat Carter (twice), Briscoe (twice), Moyer, Georgie Benton, Vicente Rondon and Tony Mundine. Bennie Briscoe, a man whose name is synonomous with the term 'Philadelphia fighter', gave Monzon and Valdes a murderous go of it in non-title and title bouts. Also beat Mustafa Muhammad, Rondon, Benton, Mundine and Cyclone Hart. Ayub Kalule, a Jr. Middleweight in a Middleweight's body, thanks to his Promoter who ordered him to boil down to 154. Regardless, at his natural weight of 160 he was formidible in winning Commonwealth and Euro titles, and in beating Sumbu Kalambay, Lindell Holmes, Sugar Ray Seales and Kevin Finnegan. Lastly, Herol Graham, damn near untouchable in his prime. Had Julian Jackson all but out for the vacant title until he pulled a Billy Conn in the 4th. Held wins over Kalule, Holmes, Pazienza and Mark Kaylor.

Honorable mention: Oh man, where do I begin, where do I end? There were so many who could have made this list I wish I could have stretched it to 25. Nevertheless, Dave Shade, Ace Hudkins, Kid Tunero, Jose Basora, Nate Bolden, Eddie Booker, Dave Sands, Holley Mims, Hurricane Carter, Georgie Benton, Cyclone Hart, Tony Mundine, Ronnie Harris, Mustafa Hamsho.

In no particular order, with the understanding that Sugar Ray is not in my top 3: Greb, Ketchel, Hagler, Monzon, Walker, Cerdan, Zale, Les Darcy, Freddie Steele, and Robinson. Close, but I just couldn't justify it to myself, Billy Conn, and may I replace Robinson with Charley Burley?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Heres my list:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Roy Jones
3. Sam Langford
4. Stanley Ketchell
5. Harry Greb
6. Marvin Hagler
7. Carlos Monzon
8. Mickey Walker
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Bob Fitzimmons

Please share your top 10

SHOULD I MAKE AN ALL TIME MIDDLEWEIGHT TOURNAMENT?????

1) Marvin Hagler
2) Sugar Ray Robinson
3) Stanley Ketchell
4) Harry Greb
5) Carlos Monzon
6) Roy Jones
7) Sam Langford
8) Bernard Hopkins
9) Billy Conn
10) Tony Zale

Brockton YES you should make a 'middleweight' tourney.

Don't forget to include many of these TOP CONTENDERS (Dan Hanley's most excellent list) many of these same fighters already mentioned on your last thread about the middles...

So see it through and maybe some of these all-time Contenders who were Frozen-Out (most FEARED fighters), will get there long awaited title shot!

Looking forward to it. Yours Jim.

Speaking of top contenders how about Jack Dillon, Mike Gibbons, Jeff Smith, Eddie McGoorty, Jimmy Clabby, Les Darcy, Soldier Bartfield, Leo Houck, Panama Joe Gans, Lou Bogash, and Jock Malone among others. All top middleweight contenders who either didnt get a shot, got a shot and failed but would have been a champ in another era, or had the misfortune of being in a deep deep era or all of the above.

I apologize if I missed it, but did Ken Overlin make anybody's list? I was aware of him and knew something of his skills but I just looked up his record. He was 127-20-9 (22KOs) and he fought everybody twice. Three of his losses came in his first four fights, and he fought a draw with Ezzard Charles within the last ten fights of his (overlin's) career. He had wins over Apostoli, Hostak, Yarosz, among other very tough guys. He lost to Bolden, Marshall, fighting them several times each. Damn, its hard to break the big time in some weight divisions.