BoxRec

Jaclem wrote:sweet scientist.....yeah...they're almost two different fighters, aren't they.....pre and post....the younger one never stayed inside long enough to do any head grabbing.....the older spent much much more. i've always wondered what we would have seen had ali not been banned.....i think those would have been his peak years..with some factors of each time period. that's almost a fantasy match in itself.

Yeah...I still remember watching the Bonavena fight...the loss of movement was shocking...and as an Ali fan, I suddenly had doubts about him being able to beat Frazier...I still bet on him and lost though...

Grimm wrote: Holmes would be an interesting matchup he had a hard time with an old Holmes he probably would've lost to a young one.

Probably would have lost to a young Holmes?

Christ, a peak Holmes would have embarrassed a peak Holyfield.

jab wrote:No offense, but Holyfield always has some excuse mate. He had a heart problem in the Moorer fight, a broken left hand in the Byrd fight, hepatitis in the third Bowe fight etc. The man just never loses outright. There is always something else with him.

It is somewha true... on the other hand, if you are a champ, you should believe you are the best and you can beat anybody... so if you lost, there has to be another reason. Even if you have to invent it - so it makes it different if the excuse is made by someone who faced the best opposition he could (and had to lose one day or another) or if it is made by a guy like for example Johnson who was training at McDonalds most of the time.

Still, some of this excuses sound reliably. A lot of Byrd opponents complained about left hand (Vitali and Golota to name the important ones; also as fair as I remember Holy didn't have broken hand but some kind of injury). I may imagine he also had some health problems when fighting Moorer, I don't know what about his hepatisis with Bowe (although the excuses for losing Ruiz and Donald fights are clearly BS - but by that time Holy was way past prime).

dempseyfire wrote: Holyfield was a great HW but really I don't see him beating any of the guys on this list, save MAYBE Dempsey in a 12 round fight (in a 15 rounder Jack wears him down).

Why do you think those 3 rounds would make a difference? Holyfield was also fighting 15 rounders and he didn't have problems with that.

Against Moorer Holyfield had a heart attack; that, not the right glove constantly bouncing off of his nose, was why he could not throw his left hook. (Which, if I recall the fight, he seemed to be busy with ) Evander fought 15 as a light heavy (or cruiser?) in the first Qawi fight. Sick or not in the Bowe fight, had Cooper or Ruiz known how to finish a man Holyfield would have two more KOs on his resume.

I never really think of Holyfield as making excuses. I recall, after the first Bowe fight, he called it " just a bad day at the office"

to me, Holyfield is the link between the old school 15 round warriors and the new school 12 round super athletes.

I think he would have given just about every HW in history all they could handle, but I think, in fairness, he would not have beaten the majority of them

I think he beats Marciano and Frazier
I think he loses to Ali, Holmes, Louis and Liston and Forman

And, I think he beats Tyson at whatever stage of their respective careers they meet..

The one thing I am pretty certain of is that even those who did beat him would be in no rush for a rematch

slapsie

I think a better topic, maybe one for the future, is exactly how Mr Rosenbloom managed to win over 200 fights against pretty good opposition; there had to more to it than what is let on in thestories.

Holyfield fought 15 at cruiser, but at HW he always had moments of fatigue in the later rounds, even in his prime

That is very true; against Foreman it was he that was sucking air at the end. And in the first Lewis fight that 5th round body punch just folded him up.

tiredoldngrey wrote:Against Moorer Holyfield had a heart attack

I always thought that he had a 'mis-diagnosed' heart problem...they originally thought there was a problem, then they (or another doctor) decided there wasn't a problem...never heard of an actual coronary in the ring...would make for a hell of a story, though...I know he had 'heart'...somewhat different than 'heart attack'....

There was never a heart attack in Holyfields case. He had a misdiagnosed heart condition. But not a heart attack, and definitely not in the ring during a fight. Think about it: could a man with heart attack keep fighting? Come on. If that were true it would be the biggest miracle ever documented.

jab wrote: Think about it: could a man with heart attack keep fighting? Come on. If that were true it would be the biggest miracle ever documented.

The post I made was slightly in jest...I know that Holyfield didn't have a coronary in that fight...but getting to your hypothetical question, "could a man with heart attack keep fighting?"...well...actually...yes, depending on how bad it was...my brother in law had a heart attack and didn't know about for 2 months...went to a doctor for a checkup...doctor told him he'd had a mild coronary 2 months before (2 months before he was shoveling snow almost every day--middle of a winter weather front)...sometimes you don't even know it, so yeah...it's possible, especially with all these Social Security age fighters we have these days...

slapsie their is no way he would have beat marciano or frazier . fraizer would have totallyoutslugged holyfield and landed hard to the body and ripped the left hook off hoylfeilds big head. frazier would know out hoylfield

What I recall about the 1st Moorer fight was that "something wasn't right" in the ring immediately after the fight, and later the first "word" was that he may have had a heart attack. Later of course that was amended and clarified (like I'm doing now :) ) but I believe the first update was 'possible heartattack'

tiredoldngrey wrote:What I recall about the 1st Moorer fight was that "something wasn't right" in the ring immediately after the fight, and later the first "word" was that he may have had a heart attack. Later of course that was amended and clarified (like I'm doing now :) ) but I believe the first update was 'possible heartattack'

So what did it really turn out to be?...I thought they decided he had a heart murmur (a heart valve not operating correctly)...and then later they said no, he didn't have a heart murmur and never did...

Holyfield dislocated his left shoulder in the first fight againt Moorer...it was shortly after he bowled Moorer over with a left-hook in the second round.

Holyfield KO's Frazier (sorry, you'll need a right hand, Joe), Dempsey (he didn't hit any harder than Lewis, Bowe or Tyson) '70's Foreman (see vs Peralta...Holy comes straight up the middle on him)...and...blah, blah, blah.

If Holyfield had never fought Tyson or Lewis, if he had retired after that first Bowe fight, when he was days within 30 yrs old, most of you would be picking them to KO him within six rounds.

And Marciano, shuffling along, like Tyson circa '96, eats an overhand right against Old Holyfield...and...blah, blah, blah.

The only two heavyweights that have clear odds against Holyfield are Louis and Ali.

I would hesitate to put holyfield in the ring with the all time greats..i think even Max Baer would have ko him whenever he decided to stop dragging holyfield through the round leik he use to with his easier opponents....i think a more equalized fight would be Jame Braddock VS Evander Holyfield..i see an anxious holyfield coming out n knocking out braddock in the first and the third, but the better,smarter,more heart filled fighter would come back and continue to win rounds by points, and in the 10th round the frustrated holyfield moves in on braddock and lets his hands wild, braddock gets hit but manages to avoid the brunt of it, as braddock ducks one of the haymakers, braddock comes up with a viscous uppercut that knocks holyfield back, then the cinderella man knockes him cold with a strong right hook

[quote="Rory McCloskey"]I would hesitate to put holyfield in the ring with the all time greats..i think even Max Baer would have ko him whenever he decided to stop dragging holyfield through the round leik he use to with his easier opponents....i think a more equalized fight would be Jame Braddock VS Evander Holyfield..i see an anxious holyfield coming out n knocking out braddock in the first and the third, but the better,smarter,more heart filled fighter would come back and continue to win rounds by points, and in the 10th round the frustrated holyfield moves in on braddock and lets his hands wild, braddock gets hit but manages to avoid the brunt of it, as braddock ducks one of the haymakers, braddock comes up with a viscous uppercut that knocks holyfield back, then the cinderella man knockes him cold with a strong right hook[/quote]

Heh-heh...here comes another sucker, comedian.

How much money did you lose on Mayweather-Gatti?

Rory McCloskey wrote:I would hesitate to put holyfield in the ring with the all time greats..i think even Max Baer would have ko him whenever he decided to stop dragging holyfield through the round leik he use to with his easier opponents....i think a more equalized fight would be Jame Braddock VS Evander Holyfield..i see an anxious holyfield coming out n knocking out braddock in the first and the third, but the better,smarter,more heart filled fighter would come back and continue to win rounds by points, and in the 10th round the frustrated holyfield moves in on braddock and lets his hands wild, braddock gets hit but manages to avoid the brunt of it, as braddock ducks one of the haymakers, braddock comes up with a viscous uppercut that knocks holyfield back, then the cinderella man knockes him cold with a strong right hook

If Holyfield knocks him out in the 1st how does he also knock him out in the 3rd?

An even better question is HOW THE HELL IS THE FIGHT STILL GOING ON AFTER BRADOCK WAS KNOCKED OUT.

LMAO anyway it's funny that you think he can knock Holyfield out.

Rory McCloskey wrote:I would hesitate to put holyfield in the ring with the all time greats..i think even Max Baer would have ko him whenever he decided to stop dragging holyfield through the round leik he use to with his easier opponents....i think a more equalized fight would be Jame Braddock VS Evander Holyfield..i see an anxious holyfield coming out n knocking out braddock in the first and the third, but the better,smarter,more heart filled fighter would come back and continue to win rounds by points, and in the 10th round the frustrated holyfield moves in on braddock and lets his hands wild, braddock gets hit but manages to avoid the brunt of it, as braddock ducks one of the haymakers, braddock comes up with a viscous uppercut that knocks holyfield back, then the cinderella man knockes him cold with a strong right hook

...that must be some pretty good weed you got there...

evander holyfield beat a washed up tyson 2 times.. and old holmes... an even older foreman.. he won his first title through buster douglas..who wasnt a GREAT fighter like Max Baer whom Braddock Defeated to get his title...holyfields most impressive wins are.. riddick bowe micheal moorer and hasim rahmann... none of which will be hall of famers...and neither will holyfield... braddock beat art lasky..tuffy griffin..john henry lewis and max baer... all of which were top notch in their day... you try to tell me that you would give holyfield a shot against max baer...not happening.. this country only got too see braddocks talent for a little over a year..he overcame the depression and a tough lose to tommy loughran who is maybe the best light heavyweight of all time.. he fought for several months with a broken hand..he was in a car accident, and he couldnt afford to train.. he stuck with joe louis for 8 rounds, even knocking him down in the first round, until eventually being knocked out for the first time in his career.

Holyfield won't be hall-of-fame, Rory?

You're a true sociopath if you actually believe that.

Rory McCloskey wrote:evander holyfield beat a washed up tyson 2 times.. and old holmes... an even older foreman.. he won his first title through buster douglas..who wasnt a GREAT fighter like Max Baer whom Braddock Defeated to get his title...holyfields most impressive wins are.. riddick bowe micheal moorer and hasim rahmann... none of which will be hall of famers...and neither will holyfield... braddock beat art lasky..tuffy griffin..john henry lewis and max baer... all of which were top notch in their day... you try to tell me that you would give holyfield a shot against max baer...not happening.. this country only got too see braddocks talent for a little over a year..he overcame the depression and a tough lose to tommy loughran who is maybe the best light heavyweight of all time.. he fought for several months with a broken hand..he was in a car accident, and he couldnt afford to train.. he stuck with joe louis for 8 rounds, even knocking him down in the first round, until eventually being knocked out for the first time in his career.

SHUT UP.

Professor X wrote:Holyfield dislocated his left shoulder in the first fight againt Moorer...it was shortly after he bowled Moorer over with a left-hook in the second round.

Holyfield KO's Frazier (sorry, you'll need a right hand, Joe), Dempsey (he didn't hit any harder than Lewis, Bowe or Tyson) '70's Foreman (see vs Peralta...Holy comes straight up the middle on him)...and...blah, blah, blah.

If Holyfield had never fought Tyson or Lewis, if he had retired after that first Bowe fight, when he was days within 30 yrs old, most of you would be picking them to KO him within six rounds.

And Marciano, shuffling along, like Tyson circa '96, eats an overhand right against Old Holyfield...and...blah, blah, blah.

The only two heavyweights that have clear odds against Holyfield are Louis and Ali.

I'm a big Holyfield fan myself, but I think you're over-rating him a bit. His power--which was increadible at cruiser--was just good at heavy (can't se him KOing the toughest chins in heavyweight history); he never had the quickest feet around (can't see him catching the slickest boxers in heavyweight history);and it seems to me that his punches were always a bit more more hard and high-volume than accurate and sharp (can't see him out-performing the best combination punchers in heavyweight history).

On the upside for Holy, he does have one of those all-time great chins I was mentioning, perhaps the all-time biggest heart, and had no glaring errors--just aspects of him game that weren't all that great--so he's a tough fight for anyone, and certainly among the all-time greats. But if I'm reading you right--and you really only do rate Louis and Ali ahead of him (and yes, they are obvioulsy the top two)--then I think #3 is a bit too high.

YEAHHHHH RIGHT... UR GONNA SAY THAT ME SEEING JIM BRADDOCK DEFEATING HOLYFIELD IS MORE RIDICULOUS THAT HOLYFIELD BEING THE THIRD BEST HEAVYWEIGHT OF ALL TIME..THATS JUST INSULTING MARCIANO,LISTON,PATTERSON,JACKSON,TYSON,DEMPSEY,TUNNEY,BAER,FRAZIER,FOREMAN,HOLMES,SPINKS, HOLYFIELD ISNT IN MY TOP 25..HES A CRUSERWEIGHT, HE LOST SOME OF IT WHEN HE MOVED UP TO HEAVYWEIGHT..