BoxRec

For Overhand_Right:
I never heard of him KOing Moore during sparring. Can you post your source for that?
Epps had just lost to Teddy Mann immediately prior to meeting Ayala. Losing to Mann shows you how 'good' Epps was.


For KO Atrist:
You conveniently forgot to mention Herrera had also been KO'd in 2 by the unknown Jose Santana (9-8-0 record at the time) in between meeting Hope and Ayala.
Please preface your fluff with "In my opinion...".

Collins2000 wrote:For Overhand_Right:
I never heard of him KOing Moore during sparring. Can you post your source for that?
Epps had just lost to Teddy Mann immediately prior to meeting Ayala. Losing to Mann shows you how 'good' Epps was.


For KO Atrist:
You conveniently forgot to mention Herrera had also been KO'd in 2 by the unknown Jose Santana (9-8-0 record at the time) in between meeting Hope and Ayala.
Please preface your fluff with "In my opinion...".

It is such a shame that a tremendously gutsy fighter (as Teddy Mann was) is spoken of as he just was. Some guys have that natural ability and others have to toil as laboriously as did Teddy Mann did to reach the heights and to then be cast aside as he was is such a shame. The "Irish" Mann deserved as much as Epps!

In addition to being a woman abuser Ayala was also a pretty bad substance abuser , so even if he had been able to beat Moore he, most likely would have unraveled pretty quickly.

I'm pretty sure it was Maldonado, who Ayala spit on. Robbie Epps wasn't knocked down, Ayala stopped him on the ropes.

Ayala had potential, but it was blown out of proportion. I remember guys saying he'd beat Tommy Hearns. The Hitman would have annihilated him.

How about Ayala v Mugabi in a 154 dream match?

I think Davey would've taken Tony into the late rounds and stopped him.Tony may have become a champion, but not at the expense of a Moore, Hearns, or even McCallum.

Seeing Tony (I was around in those days) I know he was very close to facing Duran. It is my belief that Tony would have defeated him convincingly. This would have set him up for a title shot with Moore. Davey one of the toughest and bravest fighters out there would have little chance, being outgunned. Probably fortunate for others Tony was no longer around. What fighter outside of Hagler could have withstood his assault?

by the way, what makes anyone think 10-0 Davey moore had a shot with Tony? Davey stands right in front of other fighters. This would have cost him dearly in this fight.

stevo wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:For Overhand_Right:
I never heard of him KOing Moore during sparring. Can you post your source for that?
Epps had just lost to Teddy Mann immediately prior to meeting Ayala. Losing to Mann shows you how 'good' Epps was.


For KO Atrist:
You conveniently forgot to mention Herrera had also been KO'd in 2 by the unknown Jose Santana (9-8-0 record at the time) in between meeting Hope and Ayala.
Please preface your fluff with "In my opinion...".

It is such a shame that a tremendously gutsy fighter (as Teddy Mann was) is spoken of as he just was. Some guys have that natural ability and others have to toil as laboriously as did Teddy Mann did to reach the heights and to then be cast aside as he was is such a shame. The "Irish" Mann deserved as much as Epps!

"Cast aside"? That's a bit dramatic isn't it stevo?

Take off the rose colored glasses and have a good look at Mann's records. If guys like Hagler and Leonard are 1st class, I'd say Mann was probably 3rd class as he lost to most 2nd class fighters he met. My point was that if Epps was as good as dear old Overhand_Right would like us to believe, he wouldn't be losing to 3rd raters like Mann. This is not to disrespect Mann; he may well have been a gutsy fighter who worked hard for the success he achieved. I don't recall saying he wasn't. But if you think he, or Robbie Epps for that matter, were fighters of the first rank then it is you, my friend, who should be chastised.

It is too bad Ayala could not contain his demons.....for he would have destroyed Hagler.

ringsider wrote:It is too bad Ayala could not contain his demons.....for he would have destroyed Hagler.

Yeah, right.

You should get down on your knees every night and thank John Shep for creating this virtual soapbox for you and the other crazies.

The thing that amuses me most about you is that you aren't a troll; you actually believe the crap you spout. You really are a funny little man.

Perhaps I too should get down on my knees and praise the good Shep for allowing me the pleasure of reading your bizarre posts.

Duran would have murdered Ayala - it might not even have lasted three minutes.
Even Mario Maldonado put Ayala down in the first round.

Collins2000 wrote:

ringsider wrote:It is too bad Ayala could not contain his demons.....for he would have destroyed Hagler.

Yeah, right.

You should get down on your knees every night and thank John Shep for creating this virtual soapbox for you and the other crazies.

The thing that amuses me most about you is that you aren't a troll; you actually believe the crap you spout. You really are a funny little man.

Perhaps I too should get down on my knees and praise the good Shep for allowing me the pleasure of reading your bizarre posts.

PMSL

Collins2000 wrote:

ringsider wrote:It is too bad Ayala could not contain his demons.....for he would have destroyed Hagler.

Yeah, right.

You should get down on your knees every night and thank John Shep for creating this virtual soapbox for you and the other crazies.

The thing that amuses me most about you is that you aren't a troll; you actually believe the crap you spout. You really are a funny little man.

Perhaps I too should get down on my knees and praise the good Shep for allowing me the pleasure of reading your bizarre posts.

Darn right I believe'em.........you do too....sadly you don't have the courage to say it. Get off Hagler's nuts.

The fight with Carlos Herrera was interesting in that it showed both Ayala's flaws and his potential. I seem to remember Herrera doing a pretty good job outboxing Ayala until Ayala landed big and the fight was over. Despite having been knocked out by a mediocre fighter earlier in 1982 (a loss he avenged with a KO a month later), Herrera was a legitimate contender. He was only 27 at the time of the Ayala fight and he had given Maurice Hope a close battle in the UK for the WBC light middleweight title two years earlier. Herrera retired after the Ayala fight, only to come back two years later with mediocre results. His only win of note in the comeback was a KO of equally shot Wilfred Benitez late in his career

ringsider wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

ringsider wrote:It is too bad Ayala could not contain his demons.....for he would have destroyed Hagler.

Yeah, right.

You should get down on your knees every night and thank John Shep for creating this virtual soapbox for you and the other crazies.

The thing that amuses me most about you is that you aren't a troll; you actually believe the crap you spout. You really are a funny little man.

Perhaps I too should get down on my knees and praise the good Shep for allowing me the pleasure of reading your bizarre posts.

Darn right I believe'em.........you do too....sadly you don't have the courage to say it. Get off Hagler's nuts.

Yeah, I guess I don't have the courage to spout mindless crap, bud.

I'll leave that to you and Elton.

All Tony Ayala needed was bit more polish which would have come with few more fights.......he had all the tools to beat Hagler's ass. For starters he was a natural MW, and the list goes on......

Collins the only thing you know about boxing is what you read in Sports Illustrated and the only two fighters they ever discussed who were Ali and his inferior clone Sugar Ray Leonard.

Please...dont get involved in discussions over boxers you've never seen. that would be a disservice to the others who are here to learn.

Elton John wrote:Collins the only thing you know about boxing is what you read in Sports Illustrated and the only two fighters they ever discussed who were Ali and his inferior clone Sugar Ray Leonard.

Please...dont get involved in discussions over boxers you've never seen. that would be a disservice to the others who are here to learn.

Reg my man, as long as you are here I know I can never be labelled the dumbest poster on boxrec.

Collins2000 wrote:

Elton John wrote:Collins the only thing you know about boxing is what you read in Sports Illustrated and the only two fighters they ever discussed who were Ali and his inferior clone Sugar Ray Leonard.

Please...dont get involved in discussions over boxers you've never seen. that would be a disservice to the others who are here to learn.

Reg my man, as long as you are here I know I can never be labelled the dumbest poster on boxrec.

Sure you can since it is well known you get all your info off of SI. You are the mindless echo of writers Putnam and Nack

KO Artist wrote:

Chuck1052 wrote:Don't kid yourself, Tony Ayala had incrediable poise as a
young boxer and it appeared that he had a terrific chance
to be an outstanding fighter or even a great one. But he
chose a different road. Due to his crimes, I don't have
any sympathy for him and it is obvious that he belonged
in the slammer.

- Chuck Johnston

Ayala was one of the most gifted fighters never to win a world title.

Physically and skill wise he was already a man when he was a young boy.

Mentally he was weak, similar to Tyson in many ways.

Give him his due, a prime Ayala was great to watch and a fearsome fighter.

I sympathise with him in the knowledge that he was abused as a child and must have been carrying a lot of turmoil for a lot of years.

A very sad story all round.

Tony Ayala had legend written all over him. This guy would have defeated Duran and been competitive with Hagler and Leonard. Add him in the mix of Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran and we truly would have seen the gretaest series of fights that would have played out for years. If Tony had not been such a psycho he could well have been the best of the era if not ever.

When you get dropped by Mario Maldonado and your biggest wins are over the likes of Steve Gregory, Robbie Epps and Carlos Herrera, you don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Hagler, Leonard, Hearns or Duran.

Tony Ayala showed alot of potential, but he never fought a topclass opponent, let alone beat one. Plenty of fighters in the history of the sport have shown tremendous promise, only to fall far short of there lofty expectations.

Seamus wrote:When you get dropped by Mario Maldonado and your biggest wins are over the likes of Steve Gregory, Robbie Epps and Carlos Herrera, you don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Hagler, Leonard, Hearns or Duran.

Tony Ayala showed alot of potential, but he never fought a topclass opponent, let alone beat one. Plenty of fighters in the history of the sport have shown tremendous promise, only to fall far short of there lofty expectations.

Seamus wrote:When you get dropped by Mario Maldonado and your biggest wins are over the likes of Steve Gregory, Robbie Epps and Carlos Herrera, you don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Hagler, Leonard, Hearns or Duran.

Tony Ayala showed alot of potential, but he never fought a topclass opponent, let alone beat one. Plenty of fighters in the history of the sport have shown tremendous promise, only to fall far short of there lofty expectations.

he showed more than potential. Most importantly Tony had the power to end a fight quickly.

level of opposition proves little. Terry Norris proved that in his masterful domination of Leonard. Speed, not of opposition or experience was the deciding factor.

With Tony, he would quickly power his way to victory by bludgeoning the opponent like a piece of meat. Not that Ray would have even taken this fight but if by some chance he did, Tony would punch holes in that big head of his. Duran would stand even less chance at this weight; being less able to manuver side to side. His mobility was a real question mark.

And Hearns with that chin would not stand long before Mexican bull. Only Marvin had the tools, the chin to overcome and be victorious as he always was.

Ayala's legend has grown in much greater proportion to his talent and achievements. It always happens with guys cut down in or before their prime. Hagler Hearns leonard and Duran would have been way too much for him at any given time. I'd say had his career continued he would have ended up at a level below all the abovementioned