BoxRec

Toney was taught by Bill Miller, Mayweather learned from Roger. Floyd Sr. is in a fight to the death with Steward for most overrated. Futch was great but he is gone and Roach is no where near that good. Name one fighter he trained; he gets guys who have already learned. He is an excellant conditioning coach and he was such a determined fighter in his day that he is respected. Teddy Atlas has ridden that "Cus-like Guru" crap for years. Again, who has he trained that didn't come to him a "finished" product. I cannot think of anybody he made a better fighter.

BUMP

Good topic this - I was thinking of making it myself... For me, my Greatest Trainers would be: (in no particular order)
Angelo Dundee
Cus D'Amato
Eddie Futch
Emmanuel Steward

Then of course there's the likes of Ray Arcel and Gil Clancy who are widely revered. Whereas the likes of Charley Goldman are often forgotten about. It's a really tough call.
Not to mention that the likes of Freddie Roach has gone on to become a HOF trainer.

Not in any order
Arcel
Futch
Benton
Nacho
Cayo Hernandez
Clancy
Manny when he actually gave a shit.


I think Blackburn did the greatest job ever with Louis. His technique was flawless.

The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

These are some of the guys through history that I’ve considered great trainers. I tried not to list anyone who is still active. Sometimes trainers become infamous over the course of their careers (i.e., Panama Lewis.)

Doc Bagley
Walter Watson
CHARLIE GOLDMAN
Teddy Bentham
Cus D’Amato
Eddie Futch
Jack Blackburn
Georgie Benton
Ray Arcel
Freddie Brown
Whitey Bimstein
Izzy Klein
Gil Clancy
Joey Fariello
Angelo Dundee
Chickie Ferrera
Dan Florio
Jackie McCoy
Bill Slayton
Frank Churchill
Gus Wilson
Johnny Coulon
Jimmy DeForrest
Teddy Hayes
Billy Delaney
DeWitt Van Court
Tim McGrath
Charlie Rose
Jack Hurley
Mannie Seamon
Pappy Gault (trained world class amateurs)

Anyone among the current crop gonna make history in your eyes, Ray?

Didn't Clancy have an assistant or maybe even a partner in training fighters?

He was a red-haired gentleman, I believe, but his name escapes me.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

Seems a bit extreme to me.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

Back in the old days, I would spend as much time as I could with out-of-town trainers who would come to Oklahoma City with their fighters. I would ask them about some of the current "name" trainers and what they thought of them. Some of the insights were interesting.

When Angelo Dundee's name came up, the consensus was that, if you had a kid who was just starting out in boxing, trying to learn the fundamentals, you didn't want Angelo Dundee. But if you had an experienced guy who was already a great mover like Leonard, send him to Dundee. He would make him better.

Everybody has a nitch. I put Bill Slayton on my list because the consensus was that Bill was great with heavyweights, something that's been confirmed to me in recent years by a few people who remember him. (I also put him on my list because he was very kind to me when I was a young man.).

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Anyone among the current crop gonna make history in your eyes, Ray?

Hmmm. I don't know. Off the top of my head, Freddie Roach. Let me think about it.

ADDED: Of the crew out there today, I'd say Freddie Roach and Nacho. I can't say I'm always overwhelmed by Freddie's corner work, but his guys seem to win and the name fighters seem to flock to him, so he must be doing something right in the gym.

Emmanuel Stewart. He's had a lot of real good and some great fighters. But he says some of the dumbest things when he's doing the color on HBO that I wonder . . . But I guess the proof is in the pudding; he's had a lot of good guys, and he developed many of them from, scratch.

I'm tempted to say Lou Duva, except I've heard and read more than once that Duva got all the glory while the real work in the gym was accomplished by George Benton. No idea if that's true or not.

I do think that all of the really great teachers are dead.

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

Seems a bit extreme to me.

Putting Dundee ahead of someone like Arcel is my idea of extreme.

yancey wrote:Didn't Clancy have an assistant or maybe even a partner in training fighters?

He was a red-haired gentleman, I believe, but his name escapes me.

Yeah, the guy used to wear horn-rimmed glasses, didn't he?

ADDED: Now I remember: Howie Albert.

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

Seems a bit extreme to me.

Does seem harsh, but be honest.
Irene is right, and he's not going to let the fact of Dundee's recent passing cloud his judgement like some of us have (that means me).
Give him his due as a manager though, his matching of Ray Leonard early on was brilliant.
I can never get my head around how the corner work during Leonard - Hearns 1 became elevated to such legendary status. He told Leonard that he was blowing it. What am I missing?

Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch in the corner all day for me. I always see Manny Steward as a little bit of a 'cheerleader', so to speak. A little too ready with the excuses for my liking. I have more respect for someone like Eddie Thomas. Maybe he is only known for handling Buchanan and Winstone, but he was a one man corner team. Might not have been such a big deal back in the day, but where would you find that skill set today?

raylawpc wrote:

yancey wrote:Didn't Clancy have an assistant or maybe even a partner in training fighters?

He was a red-haired gentleman, I believe, but his name escapes me.

Yeah, the guy used to wear horn-rimmed glasses, didn't he?

ADDED: Now I remember: Howie Albert.

Yes, that is the fellow.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

Seems a bit extreme to me.

Putting Dundee ahead of someone like Arcel is my idea of extreme.

I was mainly joking about the "should be shot" part.

witherspoon wrote:

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The idea that Dundee was a great trainer is total crap. He was a cornerman and when he over-stepped the mark and tried to legitimately instruct guys, it was often embarrassing.

Anyone caught placing him above an Arcel, Futch, or Beristain should be shot.

Seems a bit extreme to me.

Does seem harsh, but be honest.
Irene is right, and he's not going to let the fact of Dundee's recent passing cloud his judgement like some of us have (that means me).
Give him his due as a manager though, his matching of Ray Leonard early on was brilliant.
I can never get my head around how the corner work during Leonard - Hearns 1 became elevated to such legendary status. He told Leonard that he was blowing it. What am I missing?

Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch in the corner all day for me. I always see Manny Steward as a little bit of a 'cheerleader', so to speak. A little too ready with the excuses for my liking. I have more respect for someone like Eddie Thomas. Maybe he is only known for handling Buchanan and Winstone, but he was a one man corner team. Might not have been such a big deal back in the day, but where would you find that skill set today?

Didn't Dundee also get mad at Ali when he began doing the rope-a-dope against Foreman?

(of course, I would have initially wondered what the hell Ali was doing, too)

p.s. OTOH, Dundee got credited with loosening the ropes in Zaire, so maybe he was in on the plan.

yancey wrote:

witherspoon wrote:

yancey wrote:
Seems a bit extreme to me.

Does seem harsh, but be honest.
Irene is right, and he's not going to let the fact of Dundee's recent passing cloud his judgement like some of us have (that means me).
Give him his due as a manager though, his matching of Ray Leonard early on was brilliant.
I can never get my head around how the corner work during Leonard - Hearns 1 became elevated to such legendary status. He told Leonard that he was blowing it. What am I missing?

Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch in the corner all day for me. I always see Manny Steward as a little bit of a 'cheerleader', so to speak. A little too ready with the excuses for my liking. I have more respect for someone like Eddie Thomas. Maybe he is only known for handling Buchanan and Winstone, but he was a one man corner team. Might not have been such a big deal back in the day, but where would you find that skill set today?

Didn't Dundee also get mad at Ali when he began doing the rope-a-dope against Foreman?

(of course, I would have initially wondered what the hell Ali was doing, too)

p.s. OTOH, Dundee got credited with loosening the ropes in Zaire, so maybe he was in on the plan.

I guess Dundee's been dead long enough that I won't be accused of speaking ill of the recently departed. However, I don't think Dundee was thrilled with Ali's tactic until it started working. Then, after the fight, he claimed that he either noticed the ropes were loose but didn't say anything, or loosened them.

Kind of like him hinting that he tore Clay's glove against Henry Cooper and thereby bought his fighter an extra 5 minutes or so after the knock down. Problem is, the BBC found the original tapes of Cooper-Clay I, and Cassius got at most an extra 8 seconds.

Don't know if is true, but I remember Gran going on and on about Dundee having the Patterson-Ellis referee in his pocket.

The decision in that fight was bad, imo.

Harold Valan (I think) was the man, and yeah, I recall Gran going on and on.

Whatever the case, I agree Patterson was robbed of becoming the first triple-champ at Heavy!

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Harold Valan (I think) was the man, and yeah, I recall Gran going on and on.

Whatever the case, I agree Patterson was robbed of becoming the first triple-champ at Heavy!

Sometimes, it all works out for the best. If he would have got the decision, he would have eventually had to fight JOE FRAZIER. Ouch!

Maybe, and worsened no doubt by Frazier's grudge against him --- but he would have been a further part of history long after the brutality of that bout subsided.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Maybe, and worsened no doubt by Frazier's grudge against him --- but he would have been a further part of history long after the brutality of that bout subsided.

grudge = the SI story that Floyd wouldn't give him a loan after the Olympics when Frazier couldn't fight due to a broken hand?

Frazier-Patterson at MSG almost happened. This would have been for Joe's first or second fight after the FOTC, I believe.

Floyd was apparently unhappy with the money so it didn't come off. Maybe he was unhappy with what would have happened.

My two all-time favorites.

raylawpc wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Maybe, and worsened no doubt by Frazier's grudge against him --- but he would have been a further part of history long after the brutality of that bout subsided.

grudge = the SI story that Floyd wouldn't give him a loan after the Olympics when Frazier couldn't fight due to a broken hand?

Yeah.

yancey wrote:Frazier-Patterson at MSG almost happened. This would have been for Joe's first or second fight after the FOTC, I believe.

Floyd was apparently unhappy with the money so it didn't come off. Maybe he was unhappy with what would have happened.

My two all-time favorites.

A blend...he was unhappy with the money based on what he knew would happen.

Matching Patterson with Frazier around that time would just be sadistic. Patterson had no reflexes and had largely lost his punch. He probably figured he could make similar cash fighting the more popular, and less punishing, Ali.