BoxRec

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Controversial wrote:

KO Atrist wrote:I reckon Marciano would stop Ali between somewhere after round 11.

A prime Ali would box circles round the clumsy footed Marciano. Marciano had trouble with good boxers and they don't get much better or faster than Ali. Remember Marciano marked up bad and if anyone was going to be stopped it would likely be Marciano on cuts.

No one stopped Ali (i'm not counting Holmes because Ali was well past it then) so I don't see Marciano doing it.

My thinking is Ali on points or a stoppage on cuts win.

ali had trouble with frazier, who in some cases is a lot like the rock.


marciano was never stopped on cuts, so dont expect it to happen. cooper cut a lot worse than rocky did.



but lets get back to the subject, were taalking about the computer fight

I didn't realise we were talking about the staged fight.

I realise Marciano was never stopped on cuts but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. He came very close to being stopped remember in his fight with Charles, where I believe the ref only gave him one more round, and that was the round Marciano stopped Charles.

Ali would be too quick and too evasive to be outboxed by Marciano, who lets face it was basically a crude slugger. Ali fought some of the biggest punchers in heavyweight history, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle, Liston, Williams, Bonavena, Frazier etc... so I don't think Ali would be the one getting stopped.

Ali from 1964-1967 would easily beat Marciano. Probably something like 12 rounds to 3. A late stoppage wouldn't be out of the question. Marciano's face would defintely get cut up.
Ali from 1970-1975 vs Marciano would be competitve. Ali would still win, probably something like 9 rounds to 6.
As for the stage fight, I guess it would be interesting to see but it doesn't mean anything.

Ambling Alp wrote:Ali from 1964-1967 would easily beat Marciano. Probably something like 12 rounds to 3. A late stoppage wouldn't be out of the question. Marciano's face would defintely get cut up.
Ali from 1970-1975 vs Marciano would be competitve. Ali would still win, probably something like 9 rounds to 6.
As for the stage fight, I guess it would be interesting to see but it doesn't mean anything.

i defintley think marciano beats 70s ali. frazier had no trouble beating 70s ali. imagine if ali just leaned on the ropes and let marciano punch away?? ali didnt have his same speed in 70s and marciano would easily cut off the ring and hammer awaay at ali.

70s ali get outpointed by rock




peak ali the one that had the speed and top reflexes outpoints rocky 9 rounds to 6, but marciano wins more than 3 rounds. hell, chuvalo won 2 rounds against ali and chuvalo busted up alis body pretty good. imagine if he had rockys power.

but lets talk about behind the scenes in the computer fight, were veering off topic.


anyone got any rare stories of what happened between ali and marciano in 1969 ?

Marciano was the best heavyweight of his era whereas Frazier was not. In this regard, Marciano clearly would have to rate above Frazier. While one can argue one era was better than another, Marciano was more dominant over contemporary top heavyweights than Frazier was.

Decagon wrote:It depends on what you call Frazier's "era." Frazier was in his prime from 1967 to 1971, and held a title from 1968 to 1973. Marciano was in his prime from 1951 to 1955, and held the title from 1952 to 1955. It would be very easy to argue that from 1967 to 1971 or 1972, he was the best fighter in the world. Both guys were dominant for about the same amount of time, but Frazier hit his prime at a younger age, and fought well beyond his prime, while Marciano retired.

You are correct about Frazier. Look at his record from about 66 until he ran into Foreman in 73 and you'll see a pretty good resume. Not too many HWs had a better run than Joe had during those years.

Of course, I'd pick Rocky over Joe if they met in their primes, although it would have been a great fght. Just a matter of styles.

At one time, I too thought Ali would have beaten the Rock. The funny thing is, the more you see of Marciano the more appreciation you have for him. Would Rocky have beaten Frazier? Yes, I believe he would have.
Smokin Joe was a little more controlled in his aggression. Rocky would just keep slamming the barn door until it caved in. He beat a lot of hall of famers. Louis, Walcott, Charles, Moore. Perhaps they weren't in their prime, but close to it & they were all absolutely formidable fighters. The difference is, whether Rocky faced Ali or King Kong, he was going to win. No fighter in the history of boxing could compete with his indomitable will & spirit. This is what made Rocky so great. I have never questioned Ali's will or spirit. He was technically Rocky's superior, but I just feel that despite all the disadvantages Rocky would encounter in a match with Ali, & their were plenty Rocky was going to find a way to win.

Ali was all wrong for Rocky, too fast and a great mover...I see a comfortable decision for Ali....a bit like Louis V Ali, they had trouble with fast slick boxers and they don't get faster or slicker or tougher or more intelligent as the Greatest in his prime

Decagon wrote:Joe Frazier has the better range of the two, and a lot of the rounds he'd win simply by getting off first. This would be a very even fight. I'd probably make Marciano the favorite because of heavy betting on him.

Frazier, one handed limited brawler/boxer.. he was kinda in the middle and not good at either. He didn't have many punches in his arsenal also.. but he kept throwing and that's basically it.

I'd pick Marciano over Frazier any day. Marciano was a perfect brawler and better body puncher than Frazier. Also more power and had many punches in his arsenal with grazy angles.. My problem with marciano is he's slow and small - but it would make no difference against Frazier. Joe was so predictable and stupid. He would never have beaten active Ali. Not even past his prime Ali who just fought stupid that one time.

walshb wrote:Ali was all wrong for Rocky, too fast and a great mover...I see a comfortable decision for Ali....a bit like Louis V Ali, they had trouble with fast slick boxers and they don't get faster or slicker or tougher or more intelligent as the Greatest in his prime

Ali had the worse style for Marciano and beacose of the chin there is no punchers chance.

No fighter in the history of boxing could compete with his indomitable will & spirit. This is what made Rocky so great.

Actually i can think of alot of fighters with just as much will and spirit as the Rock. Ali,Frazier,Holyfield,Dempsey are fellow heavyweights who displayed the same amount guts and heart. What makes Marciano more gutsy, because he had to rely on it more? Thats more an indication of his limitations than anything else.And what about lower weight fighters like Armstong, Greb, Basillio, Gatti, Trinidad,and Tapia amoung many others.
Why would Marciano rate as more gutsy than them?

I'd pick Marciano over Frazier any day. Marciano was a perfect brawler and better body puncher than Frazier. Also more power and had many punches in his arsenal with grazy angles.. My problem with marciano is he's slow and small - but it would make no difference against Frazier. Joe was so predictable and stupid.

Mariciano was as predictable as an old episode of threes company. keep throwing bombs until the other guy cant take no more. Fortunatly for him he had the right guys in front of him. The way Frazier handled Bob Foster would have been the same exact way he would have destroyed Moore, Walcott and Charles. Fraizer was a bigger stronger and tougher version of Marciano and like i mentioned already, with the same amount of heart and guts.
Ali would have handled Marciano like a sparring session.

Joe Louis said just having Rocky bump into you hurts. He was like a piece of steel. I said at the beginning of this post that it seems as the years go by, Marciano gets less & less respect. The last post sure confirms this, ignorant and stupid as it is. Nobody ever beat him when he was alive, but it 's damn surprising how many can now that he's dead.

Hey Billy, I see your clearly made point, about the only thing that obfiscates this is that he needs to be assessed by his competition.
His perfect record not withstanding.

One can be a mighty big Fish when swimming in a small pond. I rate rocky in the top 10. But he does not achieve Number One status purely on his percentages. He was a great no doubt, but his perfect record should not be made out to be more than it is.

He could have saved us all the Patterson Johansen years if he was truly number one. I for one would have very much appreciated that gift.

Joe Louis said just having Rocky bump into you hurts. He was like a piece of steel. I said at the beginning of this post that it seems as the years go by, Marciano gets less & less respect. The last post sure confirms this, ignorant and stupid as it is.

Making Marciano out to be superhuman is alot more ignorant and stupid. Judging him in the proper context is not a lack of respect. It's simply not believing in the romantisized version of a highly cherished figure.

Nobody ever beat him when he was alive, but it 's damn surprising how many can now that he's dead.

Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis and several others werent fighting when marciano was. Thats why he was never beaten.

the one hates marciano, so its ok.


frazier is a tougher version of the rock

- they dont come tougher than marciano!!!!!!

marciano blind for 3 rounds against walcott, didnt complain, didnt think about quiting, just went out there and actually came into walcott blind !!! got the shit kicked out of him fro those 3 rounds but still, i didnt hear him shout out toe goldman "cut the gloves off" like ali did to angelo when he was blind against liston. hell at least ali had the speed to run away.


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how many fighters would fight with there nose like that, let alone come out and knock out a hall of famer!!!!

He could have saved us all the Patterson Johansen years if he was truly number one. I for one would have very much appreciated that gift.

boxbuzz, i know u would have liked to see marciano knock out floyd in 56.

- marciano was slowing down anyways, he was a swarmer and they never last as long, look at dempsey and frazier both past there prime before 30. marciano was 33 and showing signs of aging despite a great last fight against moore.

He could have saved us all the Patterson Johansen years if he was truly number one. I for one would have very much appreciated that gift.

boxbuzz, i know u would have liked to see marciano knock out floyd in 56.

- marciano was slowing down anyways, he was a swarmer and they never last as long, look at dempsey and frazier both past there prime before 30. marciano was 33 and showing signs of aging despite a great last fight against moore.

the one hates marciano, so its ok.

I actually love the Rock. i own alot of his fights and they are very entertaining. I just dont deify him, thats all.

how many fighters would fight with there nose like that, let alone come out and knock out a hall of famer!!!!

Charles never would have been able to split fraziers nose like that let along give him the type of trouble he gave Marciano.

I never question the Rocks guts and bavery. But to say that no one else was as coragoeus as him is overstating it.

theone wrote:

the one hates marciano, so its ok.

I actually love the Rock. i own alot of his fights and they are very entertaining. I just dont deify him, thats all.

how many fighters would fight with there nose like that, let alone come out and knock out a hall of famer!!!!

Charles never would have been able to split fraziers nose like that let along give him the type of trouble he gave Marciano.

I never question the Rocks guts and bavery. But to say that no one else was as coragoeus as him is overstating it.

he didnt give marciano trouble in that fight, marciano won every round intil charles hit him with an elbow which cut his nose.

marciano had knocked charles down in 2nd, and beat on him every round of there 2nd fight


marciano was ahead 6-1 5-1-1 6-0-1 marciano

he didnt give marciano trouble in that fight, marciano won every round intil charles hit him with an elbow which cut his nose.

Splitting his nose down the middle and almost forcing a stoppage is trouble enough. And there would not have been a second fight if the first one was not so competitive.

theone wrote:

he didnt give marciano trouble in that fight, marciano won every round intil charles hit him with an elbow which cut his nose.

Splitting his nose down the middle and almost forcing a stoppage is trouble enough. And there would not have been a second fight if the first one was not so competitive.

- it was an elbow by charles, under todays rules, marciano wins by technical decision.

- besides the elbow, charles was knocked down and beaten up in every round


just to let u know charles would give frazier more trouble than u know, frazier was very predictable, more so than marciano.


but thats what made rocky so great, he left no bad marks on his record. he gave rematches to all close or controversial fights, and always obliberated the guy in the rematch!!! guys like lennox lewis, larry holmes, had maany close or controversial fights but never gave rematches like marciaano did.

joe louis was the same way. he had a bad godoy first fight and tore him apaprt in the rematch. louis gave many guys like simon, baer, walcott rematches.

holmes never gave witherspoon or norton rematches like louis did with walcott in the close decisions.


marciano in rematches


first lowry fight- close UD win for rock, rocky wa very green facing an experienced tough journeymaan

rematch- wide UD win for rock, more experienced rock easily outpoints lowry


first lastarza- controversial split win for a green rocky

rematch- rocky breaks bones and blood vessels in lastarzas arms on his way to a 11th round knockout

first walcott - rocky KO 13 in one of the greatest heavy fights, where walcott was leading on the cards

rematch- walcott knocked out in 2 minutes of 1st round


1st charles fight - very competitive gruelling close but clear UD win for marciano

rematch- charles dominated from start to finish, until a cut nearly loses it for rock who shows incredible heat to comes back to knock out charles.


there were other rematches but those are the clear ones. the great champions leave no bad scars on there records.

I don't think Marciano's wins were controversial enough to warrant rematches .

Louis seems to have beaten Abe Simon and Buddy Baer conclusively in his initail fights with them.w

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

theone wrote:

he didnt give marciano trouble in that fight, marciano won every round intil charles hit him with an elbow which cut his nose.

Splitting his nose down the middle and almost forcing a stoppage is trouble enough. And there would not have been a second fight if the first one was not so competitive.

- it was an elbow by charles, under todays rules, marciano wins by technical decision.

- besides the elbow, charles was knocked down and beaten up in every round

Not true. It was a left hook/left uppercut hybrid that sliced Marciano's nose. Here's what the 75th Anniversary issue of The Ring said about the nose, "Near the end of the sixth, however, either an accident elbow or a left hook splits Marciano's nose." I rewatched the fight with the Marciano commentary, and right after he gets hit with the aformentioned left hook/left uppercut, Marciano says that his nose is stinging and it feels like his nose is bleeding. A closer look shows that it was indeed a punch, not an elbow. If the fight was stopped due to the cut, it would have been correctly ruled a TKO for Ezzard Charles.

If Marciano himself admits it was a punch, everyone else should also.