Roy Jones

[tiredoldngrey]

RJJ wouldn't have a prayer with any of the fighters listed. In particular I'd like to voice my opinion that Tunney would handle him with almost ridiculous ease; nothing in his career and nobody he has ever fought would prepare Jones for fights with boxers of this caliber
As to Liston, I read today that he sparred extensively with Ezzard Charles. I had never read this before and wonder if anyone else has heard this?

[silkov]

RJJ wouldn't have a prayer with any of the fighters listed. In particular I'd like to voice my opinion that Tunney would handle him with almost ridiculous ease; nothing in his career and nobody he has ever fought would prepare Jones for fights with boxers of this caliber
As to Liston, I read today that he sparred extensively with Ezzard Charles. I had never read this before and wonder if anyone else has heard this?

When did this take place?. It doesn't surprise me so much really as Liston must have had good sparring to develop such good technical skills like he did...

[Rory McCloskey]

wow i didnt realize how much respect people lost for rjj after his last 4 fights..its sad really. hes a top 5 light heavyweight of all time..

[silkov]

wow i didnt realize how much respect people lost for rjj after his last 4 fights..its sad really. hes a top 5 light heavyweight of all time..

Top 5 light-heavy of all time? you're joking!... who did he ever beat at 175 to merit being top 5 all time???.... I have trouble ranking him in the top 20.... the guy is a fraud to be honest.

[Rory McCloskey]

if your not ranking rjj in your top 20 light heavyweight of all time..then i dont know hwat to tell you. I dont care if u think he is a fraud?..he was unbeleivabley talented and he dominated for years. hes an all time great HOF champ and just because hes lost recently doesnt mean hes shit. not top 20? you gotta be joking

[silkov]

if your not ranking rjj in your top 20 light heavyweight of all time..then i dont know hwat to tell you. I dont care if u think he is a fraud?..he was unbeleivabley talented and he dominated for years. hes an all time great HOF champ and just because hes lost recently doesnt mean hes shit. not top 20? you gotta be joking

I'm not joking at all, if you look at the fighters that have fought at 175 there are easily 2o or so that I would rank above Jones....

Bob foster
Archie Moore
Mike Spinks
Harry Greb
Gene Tunney
Sam Langford
Ezzard Charles
Harold Johnson
Jack Dillon
Billy Conn
Paul Berlanbach
Jack Delaney
kID Norfolk
jIMMY Slattery
Tommy Loughne
Maxie Rosenbloom
Battling Levinsky
John Conteh
Victor Galindez
Saad Muhammad
Eddie Gregory
Dwight Quawi
John henry Lewis
................................theres 23 off the top of my head who I'd rank above Jones... both on ability and the fact that they did far more at 175 and faced far better opposition than Jones.... and theres probably quite a few I've missed out... who did Jones beat at 175?.... his opposition and 160 and 168 was mostly mediocre but at 175 it was pretty dire.....

[Rory McCloskey]

ok.. first of all you cant just basically name every good light heavyweight throughout history that comes to the top of your midn and say oh hes better then rjj. The only people on that list that IMO could possibly be thrown into the top 5 category are...

Loughran
Conn
Moore
Spinks
Ezzard
Greb
Tunney
Langford

thats 8. not 23.

Who did RJJ beat at light heavyweight??..well we can disect it all.

He started it all off by beating mike mccallum for the title.
then he went on to beat.....

Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, Lou De Valle, Otis Grant, Richard Frazier, Reggie Johnson, David Telesco, Richard Hill, Eric Harding, Antonio Tarver, Derrick Harmon, Glen Kelley, Julio Gonzolez, Clinton Woods.

While in his prime his only loss was Montell Griffin and that was by DQ. i argue that rjj prime ended when he barely beat tarver in their first fight.

It wasnt just that he beat 15 different people in this run, it was how he beat them. He put 10 people out of the fight by Ko/TKo.

The other 4 aside from the tarver one, werent even close. lets take a look.

Mike mcCallum- 116-111/ 117-110/ 119-108
lou Del Valle- 118-109/ 119-109/ 118-109
Reggie Johnson- 120-106/ 120-106/ 120-106
David Telesco- 120-108/120-108/ 120-106
Julio Gonzolez- 119-106/ 118-107/ 119-106

so basically your looking at a fighter who from mid 1997-2002, never came close to losing AT ALL. i cant beleive that youd be able to show me another fighter on this list who didnt lose for over 5 years while fighting all title defences. and 14 defences at that which is a decent amount.

TOP 5 LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHTS.

1) EZZARD
2)MOORE
3) TUNNEY
4) JONES
5) LANGFORD

[silkov]

ok.. first of all you cant just basically name every good light heavyweight throughout history that comes to the top of your midn and say oh hes better then rjj. The only people on that list that IMO could possibly be thrown into the top 5 category are...

Loughran
Conn
Moore
Spinks
Ezzard
Greb
Tunney
Langford

thats 8. not 23.

Who did RJJ beat at light heavyweight??..well we can disect it all.

He started it all off by beating mike mccallum for the title.
then he went on to beat.....

Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, Lou De Valle, Otis Grant, Richard Frazier, Reggie Johnson, David Telesco, Richard Hill, Eric Harding, Antonio Tarver, Derrick Harmon, Glen Kelley, Julio Gonzolez, Clinton Woods.

While in his prime his only loss was Montell Griffin and that was by DQ. i argue that rjj prime ended when he barely beat tarver in their first fight.

It wasnt just that he beat 15 different people in this run, it was how he beat them. He put 10 people out of the fight by Ko/TKo.

The other 4 aside from the tarver one, werent even close. lets take a look.

Mike mcCallum- 116-111/ 117-110/ 119-108
lou Del Valle- 118-109/ 119-109/ 118-109
Reggie Johnson- 120-106/ 120-106/ 120-106
David Telesco- 120-108/120-108/ 120-106
Julio Gonzolez- 119-106/ 118-107/ 119-106

so basically your looking at a fighter who from mid 1997-2002, never came close to losing AT ALL. i cant beleive that youd be able to show me another fighter on this list who didnt lose for over 5 years while fighting all title defences. and 14 defences at that which is a decent amount.

TOP 5 LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHTS.

1) EZZARD
2)MOORE
3) TUNNEY
4) JONES
5) LANGFORD

Mccallum and Hill were both way past their best... Thomas Hearns gave Hill a boxing lesson about 7 years before Jones. A long string of defences against mediocre opposition does not make you a true great.
Joe Calzaghe has made about 17 defences of his 'title' do you consider him an all time great?.
To rate Jones at 4 is just ridiculous really... Langford would have killed him.

[Rory McCloskey]

what suggest langford would have killed him? ive never seen him fight at 175. have you? you can just watch rjj and see the naturally born skill and ungodly speed. hes got above average power too. and his defences werent the greatest but at least he defended it over a dozen times and won ever fight. not only won, but utterly destroyed everyone he faced. i cant think of many all time greats langford fought at 175..i think langford is overrated because of sympathy. people feel langford should have gotten a title so they put him up there to feel better about the solution, as if he is better because he never got the fight he might have deserved so then its up to our imgination to say oh well he could have easily beaten so and so or he woulda beaten him IF he got the shot. its hard to put in an arguement for sam because he didnt get the shot rjj had. but that doesnt make him better and u cant knock rjj for getting that title shot. much of what we know of langford is from other fighters of the time, and my guess is that they respected him so they talked highly of him, and that whole sympathy card played its effect. now im not saying hes not an all time great because he is. and i think that putting him around 6-8 would actually be more justifiable.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Virgil hill was not far past his prime, he was 13-1 in his last 14 frights with 12 title defenses and he was coming off a decision loss to DM.


jones did what no other man did, he knocked hill out and he did it easily with A BODY SHOT. he made virgil hill cry like a little school girl.


if u think virgil was well past his prime when he fought jones, then u forgot that two years after he lossed to jones he knocked out tiozzo in one round to win the cruiserweight title!



mike mccallum though defintley past his prime, was still a tough dangerous contender.



- lou de valle was a good top contender 27-1 that jones beat. lou later went on to be champion

- jones dominated IBF light-H champ reggie johnson pitching a shutout

- He beat other top condenders like tough eric harding, furture champ clinton woods, undefeated glen kelly, richard hall, david telesco

- he shutout 27-0 julio gonzales who beat DM

- montell griffin was a very good light-h good enough to beat james toney. jones knocked out griffin in one round. DOMINATION


- not to mention a past his prime jones beat light-H champ antonio tarver


- as u see, jones didnt just win, he dominated these guys pitching shutouts. no contests.

[Professor X]

You're correct, silkov. If you remember, Jones fans rallied around Roy when he was handpicking civil service workers for opponents. Don't expect objectivity from those losers.

Glenn Johnson KTFO Roy Jones...I watched that fight live...Roy wasn't "shot"...he was the same heartless, classless fighter he's always been.

Antonio Tarver KTFO Roy Jones...Roy was the same old Roy in that first round, right, Jones Mickey Mouse Club? Well, of course he was.

[Rory McCloskey]

the same old roy who lost his speed his intensity and his power. yup...a prime rjj....keep dreaming

[Rory McCloskey]

just because hes a showoff, and he never got ko'ed during his run, doesnt make him heartless. who are you to say he didnt have heart pre-tarver 2. he showed heart in tarver 1 when he held tarver off to win.

[Ezzard]

Rory

I don't see tht you gain/lose heart. Roy was a superb athlete and his skills were obvious for all to see but he folded against Johnson. He didn't want to know. I was shocked! I've criticised Ray Leonard in the past for being very picky with his fights and turning everything around in his own favour but Ray at least took the big fights.

The only wins on his record that are really telling are Toney and Hopkins. They are top victories. After that you've got wins against fighters in decline.

Do you really think Roy can beat any of these guys listed?

[The Great John L]

if your not ranking rjj in your top 20 light heavyweight of all time..then i dont know hwat to tell you. I dont care if u think he is a fraud?..he was unbeleivabley talented and he dominated for years. hes an all time great HOF champ and just because hes lost recently doesnt mean hes shit. not top 20? you gotta be joking

I'm not joking at all, if you look at the fighters that have fought at 175 there are easily 2o or so that I would rank above Jones....

...John Conteh...

John Conteh a top 20 all time LH?? Whatever you're smoking I want some. John Conteh was a decent fighter with pretty limited accomplishments. Besides some good wins over Hutchins and Bennet, there's SD wins over Ahumada and Lopez and wins over Euro contenders like Finnegan, Bogs and Schmidtke. Not exactly the resume of an all time great LH. A very good fighter, but let's not get carried away.

[evndrbsn]

While in his prime his only loss was Montell Griffin and that was by DQ. i argue that rjj prime ended when he barely beat tarver in their first fight.

I think Jones' prime ended even earlier. He easily beat Clinton Woods, but his hand and foot speed had already started to show a decline. He was still faster than anyone out there, just not as fast. Come on, the guy was already 33 years old. I thought he looked a little slower in his previous few fights too.

Rory, forget what these people are saying. You can't win the argument. These people are basing that these fighters would beat RJJ by what they have read, not what they have seen. If they have seen some of these fights, they need to watch again. Dwight Qawi was as skilled and accomplished at light heavyweight as Roy? Laughable!

And yes, a fighter can gain/lose heart throughout his career. Look at Mike Tyson. While he might not have had the biggest heart ever, in his prime he would have never quit like he did in his last two fights. He got KO'd by a blocked punch from Danny Williams and quit on the canvas. He quit on the stool in his next fight. In his prime against James Douglas, he took a worse beating and tried gallantly to get up from a huge combination in the 10th. Vitali Klitschko quit after easily piling up points against Chris Byrd after nine rounds. Klitschko then went on to put on a superbly brave performance against Lennox Lewis where he was winning, but cut up badly and taking flush shots from a power hitter. Fighters that lose "heart" get tired of taking the beatings and don't get up or quit. Roy had stated for years that he had little desire to fight and had a hard time getting up for almost every fight. This guy lost the will to fight long ago, and look how well he did until he was 35 years old. You can rarely name another fighter that fought as many world title bouts against the top competition in his weight class for 14 years and never really lost a fight.

Oh, and the comment that RJJ was handpicking civil servants, I suppose you are talking about Richard Frazier. Frazier, while I don't agree with it, was the mandatory challenger for the WBC I believe. People on this board criticize Larry Holmes for not unifying the titles, which would have led him to fighting mainly challengers designated by the various sanctioning bodies. RJJ made his mandatory defenses and had no hand in deciding who the opponent was and defeated them easily. He gets criticized for doing that. Larry Holmes gets criticized for keeping his version of the title and fighting the top contenders of his era. People will always find something to complain about because they have nothing else to do.

RJJ is not my top light heavyweight of all-time, but he is in my top 5. That is solely because some people accomplished more. RJJ in his prime, though, has a chance to beat every light heavyweight to ever exist. He is one of the most gifted boxers to ever exist. If you don't agree, oh well. Keep reading your descriptions of bouts taking place 100 years ago and studying 30 second clips to form opinions. I'm basing my opinion on watching boxers of the past against nearly every fight of Roy's career.

Argue that amongst yourselves. Stop trying to demean the accomplishments of RJJ, because you are just going to change your opinions in five years anyway. I'm sure the "scholar" Professor X will churp in with his idiotic chants of "joker" "chump" and "stupid."

[Ezzard]

Don't forget that Tyson also quit against Holyfield in the rematch of the biggest fight in his career.

Anyway back to Roy... When I'm looking at saying someone is a top 5 or top 10 fighter then I'm looking at accomplishments (Roy does okay here, not great but okay), talent (Roy scores very highly here) and longevity (Roy does well here too) but that special ingredient is dealing with a truly hard fight. I'm looking for this fighter to be able to turn the tables in a losing situation or fight and fight even when on the recieving end. Think marciano (v Charles and Walcott), Charles (v Moore II), Leonard (v Hearns), Ali ( v Frazier, v Lyle etc...). Roy never ever showed this for me. This is why I struggle to rate him in these fantasy matchups. Sure he dominated for a while but nobody would easily dominate fighters (at LH) like Foster, Spinks, Conn, Tunney, Charles, Greb, Loughran. At some point these guys are going to be on top and I don't think Roy has what it takes to answer them back. In fact after watching the Johnson fight I'm pretty sure he hasn't got what it takes to answer them back. basically Roy either wins fights quite easily or he folds.

[evndrbsn]

Don't forget that Tyson also quit against Holyfield in the rematch of the biggest fight in his career.

Anyway back to Roy... When I'm looking at saying someone is a top 5 or top 10 fighter then I'm looking at accomplishments (Roy does okay here, not great but okay), talent (Roy scores very highly here) and longevity (Roy does well here too) but that special ingredient is dealing with a truly hard fight. I'm looking for this fighter to be able to turn the tables in a losing situation or fight and fight even when on the recieving end. Think marciano (v Charles and Walcott), Charles (v Moore II), Leonard (v Hearns), Ali ( v Frazier, v Lyle etc...). Roy never ever showed this for me. This is why I struggle to rate him in these fantasy matchups. Sure he dominated for a while but nobody would easily dominate fighters (at LH) like Foster, Spinks, Conn, Tunney, Charles, Greb, Loughran. At some point these guys are going to be on top and I don't think Roy has what it takes to answer them back. In fact after watching the Johnson fight I'm pretty sure he hasn't got what it takes to answer them back. basically Roy either wins fights quite easily or he folds.

I agree mostly. I think Roy didn't fold against Tarver in the first fight, though, and he was not easily winning. While some argue the decision, Roy took some great shots from Tarver and did a rope a dope for the most part. He rallied back like a true warrior in the final rounds to secure the decision. The Johnson fight is hard to use to judge Jones because he was coming off a devastating KO four months earlier in the first real loss since his amateur days (over 15 years). He also had to abandon training camp due to one of the many hurricanes of '04, I don't remember which one. He got very little training in and definitely should have postponed the fight. He didn't and the rest is history. I don't think Jones would lose against light hitters in his prime like Billy Conn.

[Ezzard]

Don't forget that Tyson also quit against Holyfield in the rematch of the biggest fight in his career.

Anyway back to Roy... When I'm looking at saying someone is a top 5 or top 10 fighter then I'm looking at accomplishments (Roy does okay here, not great but okay), talent (Roy scores very highly here) and longevity (Roy does well here too) but that special ingredient is dealing with a truly hard fight. I'm looking for this fighter to be able to turn the tables in a losing situation or fight and fight even when on the recieving end. Think marciano (v Charles and Walcott), Charles (v Moore II), Leonard (v Hearns), Ali ( v Frazier, v Lyle etc...). Roy never ever showed this for me. This is why I struggle to rate him in these fantasy matchups. Sure he dominated for a while but nobody would easily dominate fighters (at LH) like Foster, Spinks, Conn, Tunney, Charles, Greb, Loughran. At some point these guys are going to be on top and I don't think Roy has what it takes to answer them back. In fact after watching the Johnson fight I'm pretty sure he hasn't got what it takes to answer them back. basically Roy either wins fights quite easily or he folds.

I agree mostly. I think Roy didn't fold against Tarver in the first fight, though, and he was not easily winning. While some argue the decision, Roy took some great shots from Tarver and did a rope a dope for the most part. He rallied back like a true warrior in the final rounds to secure the decision. The Johnson fight is hard to use to judge Jones because he was coming off a devastating KO four months earlier in the first real loss since his amateur days (over 15 years). He also had to abandon training camp due to one of the many hurricanes of '04, I don't remember which one. He got very little training in and definitely should have postponed the fight. He didn't and the rest is history. I don't think Jones would lose against light hitters in his prime like Billy Conn.

It's a fair point about the light hitters. Those would be easier fights for Roy because of his reflexes but would still hang in the balance.

I have to comment on your Qawi comment though. Qawi-Jones over 15 would have been a fascinating fight. Qawi was very durable, determined and strong. there woyuld be moments when Qawi got in close and would cause some real damage. If Qawi went with a body attack I could honestly see him stopping Roy very late. Roy's best chance would be to do soem real damage early on and hope this dulls Qawi's attack but if Holyfield couldn't do it then I can't see Roy doing it either.

[evndrbsn]

Don't forget that Tyson also quit against Holyfield in the rematch of the biggest fight in his career.

Anyway back to Roy... When I'm looking at saying someone is a top 5 or top 10 fighter then I'm looking at accomplishments (Roy does okay here, not great but okay), talent (Roy scores very highly here) and longevity (Roy does well here too) but that special ingredient is dealing with a truly hard fight. I'm looking for this fighter to be able to turn the tables in a losing situation or fight and fight even when on the recieving end. Think marciano (v Charles and Walcott), Charles (v Moore II), Leonard (v Hearns), Ali ( v Frazier, v Lyle etc...). Roy never ever showed this for me. This is why I struggle to rate him in these fantasy matchups. Sure he dominated for a while but nobody would easily dominate fighters (at LH) like Foster, Spinks, Conn, Tunney, Charles, Greb, Loughran. At some point these guys are going to be on top and I don't think Roy has what it takes to answer them back. In fact after watching the Johnson fight I'm pretty sure he hasn't got what it takes to answer them back. basically Roy either wins fights quite easily or he folds.

I agree mostly. I think Roy didn't fold against Tarver in the first fight, though, and he was not easily winning. While some argue the decision, Roy took some great shots from Tarver and did a rope a dope for the most part. He rallied back like a true warrior in the final rounds to secure the decision. The Johnson fight is hard to use to judge Jones because he was coming off a devastating KO four months earlier in the first real loss since his amateur days (over 15 years). He also had to abandon training camp due to one of the many hurricanes of '04, I don't remember which one. He got very little training in and definitely should have postponed the fight. He didn't and the rest is history. I don't think Jones would lose against light hitters in his prime like Billy Conn.

It's a fair point about the light hitters. Those would be easier fights for Roy because of his reflexes but would still hang in the balance.

I have to comment on your Qawi comment though. Qawi-Jones over 15 would have been a fascinating fight. Qawi was very durable, determined and strong. there woyuld be moments when Qawi got in close and would cause some real damage. If Qawi went with a body attack I could honestly see him stopping Roy very late. Roy's best chance would be to do soem real damage early on and hope this dulls Qawi's attack but if Holyfield couldn't do it then I can't see Roy doing it either.

I don't think Roy would stand there like Holyfield did at times. Holyfield always threw punches in bunches and just did nothing for other periods. Made for great fights. Roy would move, move, move. Even if Qawi could make it a tough fight, he isn't of Roy's caliber.

[Ezzard]

I agree mostly. I think Roy didn't fold against Tarver in the first fight, though, and he was not easily winning. While some argue the decision, Roy took some great shots from Tarver and did a rope a dope for the most part. He rallied back like a true warrior in the final rounds to secure the decision. The Johnson fight is hard to use to judge Jones because he was coming off a devastating KO four months earlier in the first real loss since his amateur days (over 15 years). He also had to abandon training camp due to one of the many hurricanes of '04, I don't remember which one. He got very little training in and definitely should have postponed the fight. He didn't and the rest is history. I don't think Jones would lose against light hitters in his prime like Billy Conn.

It's a fair point about the light hitters. Those would be easier fights for Roy because of his reflexes but would still hang in the balance.

I have to comment on your Qawi comment though. Qawi-Jones over 15 would have been a fascinating fight. Qawi was very durable, determined and strong. there woyuld be moments when Qawi got in close and would cause some real damage. If Qawi went with a body attack I could honestly see him stopping Roy very late. Roy's best chance would be to do soem real damage early on and hope this dulls Qawi's attack but if Holyfield couldn't do it then I can't see Roy doing it either.

I don't think Roy would stand there like Holyfield did at times. Holyfield always threw punches in bunches and just did nothing for other periods. Made for great fights. Roy would move, move, move. Even if Qawi could make it a tough fight, he isn't of Roy's caliber.

Not in terms of skill he isn't but The Camden Buzzsaw brought an intensity that really was something. Spinks kept Qawi at long range and the jinx allowed him to do this. I'm not sure that Roy would have as much success. It would be a much closer fight.

[Professor X]

Wait a minute. Griffin-Jones I showed the mettle of the prime, heartless Roy...and you don't think Qawi would have cracked his chin on that night, evndrbsn? You dumbphuck, you.

Roy looked crap very often against those cans he handpicked. He even looked boring crap against star-struck Hopkins. Oh, and, BTW, Hopkins KTFO's Jones in a rematch, then, especially then, and now. That's a natural fact.

[hawaiianpunch]

I think Roy would beat Tunney, have a chance to beat Holyfield but no way in hell would he beat Liston!

[barry]

It's funny how the naysayers like to say that Jones picked civil service members to fight...gee, Richard Frazier is the only fighter that fell into that category and the WBC made Frazier mandatory for Jones, but if you listen to some, ever opponent that Jones dominated were civil servents. It just kills some people to know that Jones was so great, if he wasn't they wouldn't have to make up false arguments and lies!

[evndrbsn]

Wait a minute. Griffin-Jones I showed the mettle of the prime, heartless Roy...and you don't think Qawi would have cracked his chin on that night, evndrbsn? You dumbphuck, you.

Roy looked crap very often against those cans he handpicked. He even looked boring crap against star-struck Hopkins. Oh, and, BTW, Hopkins KTFO's Jones in a rematch, then, especially then, and now. That's a natural fact.

Wow, you amaze me again with your poetic words, Professor. No, I don't think Qawi would "have cracked his chin." You are such an ill-informed, idiotic little boy if you think Jones looked like crap, especially against Hopkins. Jones was fighting with an injured left and still easily defeated Hopkins. You are overrating Hopkins to say that he would KO Jones. I guess you are basing that on Hopkins beating a green Glen Johnson. Yep, that always works. Just like since Foreman destroyed Frazier twice and Frazier beat Ali once and lost two close fights, that must have meant Foreman couldn't be touched by Ali. I guess also since Foreman destroyed Norton and some still believe Norton went 3-0 against Ali, Foreman destroys Ali 10 times out of 10.

By the way, stop trying to sound cool or tough by using words such as "dumbphuck." You just make yourself sound like a castrated 12-year old boy who is lashing out at the world because someone peed in his Mountain Dew. Relax little man. Buy a new Mountain Dew and move on.