BoxRec

Way before Foreman's comeback I always considered Joe the better fighter of the two, but that George had the style to always beat him. The comeback title win for George was unprecedented and as an achievement really pushes him up the pecking order fo greats IMO.

But Joe was not a quitter. He beat Ali when Ali was closer to his prime than Joe was to his when Ali beat him. Frazier's qulaity has been listed and discussed in this thread so I have nothing else to offer there. I think he had a formidable left hook (maybe the best ever) and was one of the most determined and mentally strong HWs ever.

I think he'd give any of the boxers a torrid time but would always suffer against Foreman, Liston, Louis.

Ali was a great great fighter but somehow his publicity machine has relegated Joe to just a bit part and that's unfair.

KO Atrist wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Gettin beat on that bad would likely raise anyones blood pressure. Anyway you slice it Frazier took a big beating that night it was brutal. Technicaly he won the fight but from front row accounts it seems Ali was right about who was more "beaten" in the ring.

This particular scenario gets everybody's blood pressure up and I'm not trying to do that. I'm a no excuse's advocate. Frazier's hand went up, he knocked Ali down and he won the fight. But this other "measurement" of a fight has an interesting twist.

Who would you rather have been at the end of that fight, if there was no "glory" attached?

Ali is the answer to that question, he did not take as bad a beating...OR..his recuperative powers were just head over heals superior to that of Joes. Either way the answer to that Question is Ali.

And I am not biased. Frazier is in my top 6 fighters of all time and I like him very much consider him a legend, and have met him personally. I am biased to the fighters of that era but to no one fighter in particular. I believe I make my assessments on the empirical data available to me.

And if credible data came in that countered this effectively, I would simply change my opinion.

What are you talking about If there was no glory attached.

Frazier beat Ali's ass in that fight. Ali lost to a better man.

Accept it, and get over it.

Hmmm KO...I think we are in agreement here. You may have misunderstood what I meant. I would think if Joe could have been in Ali's shoes the next day he would have preffered that. I'm just talking about the "hangover". You can win a fight and be in worse condition the next day than your opponent. Happens a lot. I think Taylor Chavez might have been a dramatic example of that if it had gone another 5 seconds.

I have nothing to be "over" I think Frazer won that fight....but lost the war. Sort of like the Quarterback that made the pass, wins the game and gets tackled on the last play and gets his arm broke. If not for the pay and glory wouldn't you rather be the other quarterback the next day?

well joe frazier was a great fighter with a great heart couldve give most heavyweight fighters a really tough and long fight. He parried and block punches on the way in really good and his crossed arm defense worked effectively .

I used to have him top 5 but after seing various film i did see it is true that he did really way too much on the left hook.

Reasons i dont have him anymore in top 5 are becauser after the ali victory he didnt ever comeback with a another great win on a another great fighter.

because oh this and Theres too much great all time heavyweight boxers with a better legacy that why he is not top 5 for me he might be top 10 but since i recently saw such great films of ezzard charles jersey joe walcott and other now my rankings are all screwed up!! lol!

In terms of accomplishment I rate Joe in the lower top ten. In terms of head to head competiion, I rank him number 3 of all time. I believe only Ali and Foreman beats him.

theone wrote:In terms of accomplishment I rate Joe in the lower top ten. In terms of head to head competiion, I rank him number 3 of all time. I believe only Ali and Foreman beats him.

jack dempsey knocks out frazier early

Joe Louis gets stopped by Frazier late in the fight. Dempsey gets ko'd barely after the fight starts.

Joe Frazier was the ultimate pressure heavyweight. He was more relentless than Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson or anyone else.
He just kept coming and coming. He almost never let aup for a few seconds, much less "taking a round off" as see with most fighters.
It wasn't all the left hook. Athough the lefthook was his best punch, he could punch with the right hand as well.
Because of his head movement, he much harder to hit than other pressure fighters.
His victory over Ali was a greater achievement than almost any heavyweight can claim. We aren't talking about beat Jess Willard or Michael Spinks here. No it wasn't Ali's best fight, but Ali still fought a great fight.
As others point out, he had victories against other good fighters with varying styles as well. He beat Bonavena,Machen, Jones, Quarry and Mathis before winning the title. Destroyed Ellis to win the WBA title. After he lost the title to Foreman, he beat Bugner, Quarry again and Ellis again.
If he was inconsistent, he could have lost to anyone of those guys.
The only two men to have beaten him are Ali and the most dangerous heavyweight of alltime, George Foreman.

In many other eras, Frazier would have completely dominated for several years and could have gone undefeated.
He is probably one of the top 5 heavyweights of alltime.

I tend to agree with Alp's positive take on Frazer in many ways. He really had no reverse gear and he was all energy. They didn't call him "smokin" for nothin. Another thing he got more respect from "the greatest" than any other fighter ever. Read between the lines and you can see that Ali himself knew Joe was an absolutely remarkable fighter. I sort of wish Joe could have read between the lines on that as well, as I know he felt very disrespected by Ali.

There does seem to be a hole in his resume though, unless someone else see's something I don't. The only devastating puncher he ever fought beat him twice. Big George. He never faced Ron Lyle and He never faced Ernie Shavers. Since he did not have a reverse gear how would he have fared against these guys? Who was the second biggest hitter he faced? I'm reluctant to say I'd like to hear it from others.

Makes me wonder once again about how he would do against Tyson, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey. The biggest punchers of the past.

BoxBuzz wrote:Who was the second biggest hitter he faced? I'm reluctant to say I'd like to hear it from others.

Jerry Quarry was a very hard hitter, as was Bonavena. Of course I don't think that either hit as hard as Lyle or Shavers. I think Joe probably would have fared well against Shavers, as Earnie was not as skilled as either Foreman or Lyle. Lyle would have been a very tough opponent for Joe. Of course, either one of them would have made for very interesting and entertaining fights.

Makes me wonder once again about how he would do against Tyson, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey. The biggest punchers of the past.

I think all four of these guys would have fell just as easily or even faster to Foreman than Joe did. It was a combination of Foremans strenght, chin, as well as power that did Joe in. Joe caught Foreman with a couple of shots that would have stunned or put most fighters down. Also, Foreman's boxing style, telephone pole jab, open handed slapping, pushing defense , and swift for size lateral movement(especially that ole move he used to employ) was too much for Joe to handle. Foreman did not just stand and slug with Joe like he did Lyle, he was too smart for that.
Except for maybe Tyson who faced Lewis, I have no doubt that Fraizier would have been the hardest puncher the other three had ever faced.

Joe Louis gets stopped by Frazier late in the fight. Dempsey gets ko'd barely after the fight starts.

dempsey incredibly fast starter, frazier worst starter i have ever seen

dempsey TKO 3 frazier - dempsey could do everythnig frazier could except better


louis KO 5 frazier - this is a big mismatch, frazier would come right into louis with his predictable headmovement and louis would time it easily and with his incredible accurate fast combinations, he would use frazier as a punching bad for a few rounds.





joe louis would have knocked out foreman. i wont go into analysis cause im too lazy and have done it already

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

dempsey incredibly fast starter, frazier worst starter i have ever seen

dempsey TKO 3 frazier - dempsey could do everythnig frazier could except better

Fascinating assessment. Stretching my imagination and I'm just trying to wrap my mind around your confidence on this scenario. Not at all sure if I agree of If I think you've lost touch with reality and are in need of immediate shock treatment.

You know I'm one who has an open mind. I'll be thinking about this, hitting the books watching films, but this one has my attention.

dempsey TKO 3 frazier - dempsey could do everythnig frazier could except better

Absolutely ludicrious. Dempsey would get thoroughly crushed by Fraizer. There is nothing Dempsey could bring to the fight that Frazier wouldnt be able to handle. The reputation of Dempseys iron chin is exaggerrated.
Fireman Jim Flynn ko'd him, lightheavy Carpantier had him staggering, Brennan had him staggered and in dire straits a couple of times in their fight.
Tough but light punching Sharkey was staggering him all around the ring.
I'm not saying he had a jaw of glass but it wasnt exactly granite either.
And Jack would definitly need that type of chin to beat Frazier who was bigger stronger more powerful, and had a better chin.

louis KO 5 frazier - this is a big mismatch, frazier would come right into louis with his predictable headmovement and louis would time it easily and with his incredible accurate fast combinations, he would use frazier as a punching bad for a few rounds.

With the amount of time he would be getting bullied and dropped, Louis wont have time to time Fraziers attack. He would be done by the seventh round.

joe louis would have knocked out foreman. i wont go into analysis cause im too lazy and have done it already

As i stated in other post, Louis would be lucky to get out of the first round in this one.

I have him at 8th and let me say this I love Joe Frazier, he was the definition of a warrior, I think he and Evander Holyfield are very similar, guys that really didnt have great chins both so much heart and effort, except IMO Joe was a better fighter. As for the Louis and Dempsey vs. Frazier. Both of these fights are lasting a at least 7 rounds, I am pretty sure Dempsey stops Joe, I can see Joe winning one out of three from Jack. As for Louis, I think Frazier could beat him, but get beaten to a pulp in the rematch.

possibly the best body puncher

I cant agree with this at all. Joe did throw hard shots inside, but he also had the tendency to get lazy inside.