BoxRec

this argument will never resolve. Ali was an unbelievablre fighter, mabey as good as Louis, I just cant sit here and read shit like Ali was leagues above Louis. Joe Louis TKO 12 over Ali in their primes.

sockdollanger wrote:this argument will never resolve. Ali was an unbelievablre fighter, mabey as good as Louis, I just cant sit here and read shit like Ali was leagues above Louis. Joe Louis TKO 12 over Ali in their primes.

Well to pick Louis to ko Ali is an insult to Ali... the man fought the hardest punchers the heavyweight division has ever seen and was never koed Louis would never have koed Ali!.... Ali was far too fast, strong, clever and had probably the best chin and recupertive powers of any heavyweight champion. If a fight between them ended in a knockout it would be Louis who would be koed not Ali....

There are a couple of factors why Ali isn't considered by many as the best pound for pound ever.
First, although most people like him a lot, there is a significant minority who absolutely despise him. These people are unable to look at his career realistically. They ignore his achievements and latch on to anything that would make diminish him, while conveniently overlooking the negatives of there own favorites.
Some people (many of the same people) won't rate him highly because of style. They point out things like he didn't attack the body much, didn't hold his hands high, threw a lot of arm punches. However, it wouldn't have been wise for him to "go by the book". He was unique, and he made what natural talents he had work for him.

Most people are unable to be rate fighters that they don't like as highly as they should.

The other main factor is the bias against heavyweights that many people seem to have when making pound for pound for pound lists. They just assume that the great smaller fighters are better.
Certainly at the present time, there are no great heavyweights that should be even the top 30 pound for pound of the current fighters. However, throughout history there were certainly times when the best fighter pound for pound was a heavyweight.
Certainly some of the best fighters of alltime have been heavyweights.

silkov wrote:

sockdollanger wrote:this argument will never resolve. Ali was an unbelievablre fighter, mabey as good as Louis, I just cant sit here and read shit like Ali was leagues above Louis. Joe Louis TKO 12 over Ali in their primes.

Well to pick Louis to ko Ali is an insult to Ali... the man fought the hardest punchers the heavyweight division has ever seen and was never koed Louis would never have koed Ali!.... Ali was far too fast, strong, clever and had probably the best chin and recupertive powers of any heavyweight champion. If a fight between them ended in a knockout it would be Louis who would be koed not Ali....

A TKO is not the same thing as a KO.

silkov wrote:Well to pick Louis to ko Ali is an insult to Ali... the man fought the hardest punchers the heavyweight division has ever seen and was never koed Louis would never have koed Ali!.... Ali was far too fast, strong, clever and had probably the best chin and recupertive powers of any heavyweight champion. If a fight between them ended in a knockout it would be Louis who would be koed not Ali....

He fought some of the hardest hitters, but not the best puncher. Shavers and Foreman never but their shots together like Louis or went to the body like Louis. Their punches were telegraphed, Louis seamlessly put jabs, uppercuts, and hooks in sucession. Any fighter can be stopped, especially at heavyweight. Nobody would have picked Ali to stop the iron-chinned Liston in 1 round, but he did. Many factors go into a knockout, and to say nobody could kayo somebody is ridiculous. That's like saying nobody would beat Marciano because he never ever lost, but I bet you pick some heavyweights to beat him!

IMO, Louis versus a 67 Ali ends in a 7th round KO. A very even fight, but Louis feints with a left, times Ali's pulling back and nails him with a right cross and left uppercut for the count. Louis versus a 71 Ali lasts longer, a competitive bout until Louis takes control late and stops Ali by TKO in 12.

Is this a dream of yours? Louis timing ali and knocking him out?
I don't believe in the theory that anyone can be knocked out. Ali (with the excpetion of the Holmes fight late in his career)and others did go their whole career without being knocked out.
Foreman landed a lot of haymakers against Ali and couldn't stop him in 1974. If anyone was ever going to ko Ali, it would have been then.
Louis almost surely wouldn't have landed a big punch against ali in 1967, and he would have he still wouln't have stopped him.
Other guys went the distance with Louis who were far below Ali's level.Ali would probalby win a lopsided decision against Louis in 1967, serious chance of a late stoppage.
Not trying to rip Louis who was all time great, just trying to say what I think would happen.

Sherlock wrote:

silkov wrote:Well to pick Louis to ko Ali is an insult to Ali... the man fought the hardest punchers the heavyweight division has ever seen and was never koed Louis would never have koed Ali!.... Ali was far too fast, strong, clever and had probably the best chin and recupertive powers of any heavyweight champion. If a fight between them ended in a knockout it would be Louis who would be koed not Ali....

He fought some of the hardest hitters, but not the best puncher. Shavers and Foreman never but their shots together like Louis or went to the body like Louis. Their punches were telegraphed, Louis seamlessly put jabs, uppercuts, and hooks in sucession. Any fighter can be stopped, especially at heavyweight. Nobody would have picked Ali to stop the iron-chinned Liston in 1 round, but he did. Many factors go into a knockout, and to say nobody could kayo somebody is ridiculous. That's like saying nobody would beat Marciano because he never ever lost, but I bet you pick some heavyweights to beat him!

IMO, Louis versus a 67 Ali ends in a 7th round KO. A very even fight, but Louis feints with a left, times Ali's pulling back and nails him with a right cross and left uppercut for the count. Louis versus a 71 Ali lasts longer, a competitive bout until Louis takes control late and stops Ali by TKO in 12.

With respect Sherlock I think you're totally wrong... Louis may catch Ali a couple of times but Ali could take a punch like noone else and at his prime he wouldn't be standing still enough for Louis to get him with his combinations. Even the older Ali who took many more punches would not have been koed by Louis. Ali would have been far too fast, and too strong for Louis. People always underestimate how strong ALi was... but this was a big factor in his success. Also Ali was one of the best thinkers inside the ring while Louis never really moved from his fight plan. Against Ali louis would be out-boxed and outfought and I have to say it against a peak Ali Louis would be outclassed!.... his lack of footspeed would make him an almost stationary target for Ali...

Louis seamlessly put jabs, uppercuts, and hooks in sucession.

Louis did not have the speed to corner to get close enough to prime Ali to land effective combinations. Louis also did not have the chin to take the hard continous counter shots the early 70's Ali would land. Either version of Ali too much for the Brown Bomber.

Ali was highly durable but it is clear that he was far less dominant over his contemporaries than Joe Louis was. This is not up for debate. Guys like Frazier and Norton were not annihilated in rematches whereas with Louis everyone he rematched in his prime was brutally ko'd.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Ali was highly durable but it is clear that he was far less dominant over his contemporaries than Joe Louis was. This is not up for debate. Guys like Frazier and Norton were not annihilated in rematches whereas with Louis everyone he rematched in his prime was brutally ko'd.

Ali was just as dominant in the 60s and throughout most of the 70s as Louis. Louis was koed in his prime!. Also Ali's opposition was far better than Louis. Guys like Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Bonavena, Quarry etc would have given Louis a lot of trouble too... do you think Louis who was floored by Galento, Baer, Braddock etc would have stood up to the punches of Frazier, Foreman, Liston, and Shavers?... I think not!.

sockdollanger wrote:this argument will never resolve. Ali was an unbelievablre fighter, mabey as good as Louis, I just cant sit here and read shit like Ali was leagues above Louis. Joe Louis TKO 12 over Ali in their primes.

they are both fighters no doubt but a 67-68 ali KO's louis in the mid rounds. I cant see louis winning. Louis against a post-layoff Ali then u see one winning by UD. probly ali imo

I'll make this short as I know how, if you just sit and watch fights (like some people used to watch MTV) you see something in Ali that truly transcends the rest of the HW fighters that are on film anyway. I think Ali finds a way to beat every heavy in history, and that may mean psycheing them out when needed. But mosty purely on skill.

With that said I don't think any HW can be the P4P king. I think the human body as a fighting machine has some distinct physical advantages from the Light Welterweight range and Peaks at Middleweight. maxing at possibly light heavy 175. So my guess is you will find your leading candidate in that zone somewhere. Duran being an example of the lightest potential candidate and some middleweight like Robinson being as big as should be in that catagory. (Hey maybe a light heavy like Archie could be considered? Who knows....anyone want to second that?

The ability for muscle to move bone and tissue with speed and power peaks in this area.

Sorry to be sort of physicist in my thinking but that's how I see it. And I've talked to some Doc's who are on the same page. However the species may be moving those numbers up slowly with each generation.

I can see where Sherlock is coming from and I agree that Louis could knock him out, but after the lesson of Hnr'ys Hammer I think Ali found out what he could handle and what he could not handle and his reflexes became his best friend. He could keep the dynamics within that critical range from that point on and he was fast enough to get that job done....and indeed he did for his entire carreer. Had he not had that fight when he did I do not think he would have become the fighter he became.

BoxBuzz wrote:I can see where Sherlock is coming from and I agree that Louis could knock him out, but after the lesson of Hnr'ys Hammer I think Ali found out what he could handle and what he could not handle and his reflexes became his best friend. He could keep the dynamics within that critical range from that point on and he was fast enough to get that job done....and indeed he did for his entire carreer. Had he not had that fight when he did I do not think he would have become the fighter he became.

Nobody would ko Ali! noone... especially not so slow Joe. I love Louis a lot but Ali was a different class and I'm not afraid to say it.

Silkov I think you can see that we agree, I think the lesson of Hnry's Hammer is just one of the reason's why we agree. He was a learning and a fighting machine, Frazier couldnt do it, Foreman couldnt do it Norton couldnt do it even though he broke his jaw early on. Not because it couldn't be done but because Ali knew how to keep it from happening.

BoxBuzz wrote:Silkov I think you can see that we agree, I think the lesson of Hnry's Hammer is just one of the reason's why we agree. He was a learning and a fighting machine, Frazier couldnt do it, Foreman couldnt do it Norton couldnt do it even though he broke his jaw early on. Not because it couldn't be done but because Ali knew how to keep it from happening.

Yes, but Ali also had probably the best chin of any heavyweight champion.... thats why I can't see him being koed by anyone. The shots he took from Norton after his jaw was broken would have stopped 99% of fighters... Ali had a mixture of a great chin, heart, and recupertive powers that made him one of the most durable fighters ever, but he seldom gets praise for this...

silkov wrote:Yes, but Ali also had probably the best chin of any heavyweight champion...

Oliver McCall(WBC) and Larry Holmes.

ali broke his jaw which is the only sign of a less then phenominal chin... yet its a big sign.

The arguement about what competition they faced is highly subjective. Both faced the best fighters available in their era.

The arguement about what competition they faced is highly subjective. Both faced the best fighters available in their era.

That doesnt mean you cant make opion objectively who fought better competition. If you switch them up, I see Ali having a vastly easier time against Louis's competition than Louis would have had against his.

I believe Louis would win a UD from Ali over 15 rounds and it would be by virtue of his jab. Follow me on this. Eddie Futch had a knack for sorting out Ali's weaknesses and teaching fighters to capitalize on them. H e noticed that when Ali jabbed his right hand did not stay at home to block or parry the other man's return jab. That is why he told Norton to (A)jab when Ali jabbed and (B) to keep his right hand at home to deal with Ali's jab.
Now, Louis was known for having a tremendous jab and if you watch tape of him he religiously kept the right hand where it should be. When Ali jabbed Louis would catch it in his right glove or parry it; simultaneously he would land his jab which was noted for its forcefulness, because Ali did not keep his right in place. With his pattern disrupted whart would Ali turn to next?

tireoldngrey wrote:

I believe Louis would win a UD from Ali over 15 rounds and it would be by virtue of his jab. Follow me on this. Eddie Futch had a knack for sorting out Ali's weaknesses and teaching fighters to capitalize on them. H e noticed that when Ali jabbed his right hand did not stay at home to block or parry the other man's return jab. That is why he told Norton to (A)jab when Ali jabbed and (B) to keep his right hand at home to deal with Ali's jab.
Now, Louis was known for having a tremendous jab and if you watch tape of him he religiously kept the right hand where it should be. When Ali jabbed Louis would catch it in his right glove or parry it; simultaneously he would land his jab which was noted for its forcefulness, because Ali did not keep his right in place. With his pattern disrupted whart would Ali turn to next?

I dont think Louis would or could use that tatic to fight Ali. The strategy worked so well for Norton because it benefited his particular style of fighting.
Norton fought out of an almost crab like stance and when he jabbed his upper body would be aligned with the punch. It allowed him to maximize the use his already long reach (80 inches) to get inside of Ali. Because of this weird punching angle Ali would have fits trying to jab with Norton.

Louis jabs although maybe harder, were not as long as Nortons. Louis threw his jab short using it primarly as a range finder, so he could land his powerful combinations. Thats why Walcott and Conn were able to get inside and outbox him effectively for most rounds, and why fighters like Galento and Braddock were actually able to get close enough to drop the brown bomber.

The whole P4P thing is bogus anyway. Just a way to bring attention to the smaller guys. Even average HW champs mop the floor with Armstrong, Leonard and Robinson. Only Sam Langford could whip heavies regularly. As for Louis and Ali, if Ali fought Louis the way he fought Frazier, Foreman or even Norton he would've lost (as he lost in his prime to Frazier). He would have to move constantly like Conn did without taking the chances Conn did. I could see him winning a points decision.

Cap

The only way for Louis to beat Ali is by KO, No way does the slow moving flat footed Louis outpoint the fastest moving, punching heavyweight ever. Joe struggled against Conn for 12 rds and Louis was close to his peak...now Ali is so far ahead of Conn in every way. Louis needs a stationey target and needs to land 3-4 consecutive on Ali, who ever did that to a poeak Ali??.....

To compare Ali to Conn is an insult to Ali... Conn was a great Light-heavy while Ali was a great heavy, (the greatest!). If Louis had trouble with Conn, it doesn't take much imagination to figure out what Ali would have done to him.