Dariusz Michalczewski, Lineal/Linear Champ...Not Quite!

[Autobarn]

Kept me quite...check the posts, nothing has keep me quite, and if I had been it wouldn't have been from anything you did...as I remember all you did was continue to ask me to search for a source...that was the depth of your argument, so you haven't presented much of anything. I've seen several of DM's bouts and like I have said, pretty exciting style and he looks real good dominating low-level competition and I have made no bones about the fact that I prefer to watch Dm style as opposed to Jones. You keep harping on Barber like he was a pound-for-pound entrant, or something, but he was nothing more than a B level fighter.

How do you rank the opponents that Roy Jones faced, not counting Richard Frazier, which is one fight that people try to mention, but his other title bouts, do you know anything about any of his opponents, have you seen them fight?

Harding is a fornicating good boxer, who made tarver think twice about being a boxer and was outclassing AT before walking onto a big left hand in the rematch. I'm hoping Harding wins a title, believe me.

Clinton Woods is also better than ppl knew. he boxed beautifully vs Rico Hoye, and has the balance / repertoire a good title holder needs in a competitive division. IMO Clinton beat Glengoffe i their first fight - it was tight all the way & CW staggered him, dropped him but didn't get acknowledged by ref Ian John Lewis, who must've been asleep.

del valle wasn't bad- he dropped Hill. harmon usually quit when things got tough, but a competent guy nonetheless. Sosa was a hard guy, who Jones beat in his first ever 175 fight, although Sosa had been thru 2 of the most punishing fights of 95 (vs a shopworn PC Williams) and in honesty usually lost vs top guys.

Sweet Reggie was too portly and slowed down - that wasn't the fast, lean guy who might have beaten Toney. McCallum was well past it- those HARD fights with Jeff Harding and Tiozzo finished him at the top, and in truth he slowed down tremendously between the two classic Toney fights. Hill had whatever championship quality left beat out of him by DM- a long, steady beating.

so i give Jones credit for beating some good guys. damn shame he didn't have to go through DM to get his belts. the division lost a genuine superfight. DM and RJ got richer the easier way and the fans lost out.

[barry]

I agree, the fighters should have done whatever it took to make it happen, but neither man really wanted it bad enough. Boxing today isn't about who is the best, it's about who can earn the most amount of money with the least risk to reputation. Of course there are a few exceptions, but for the most part fighters today are completely satisfied to win one of the bogus belts proclaiming themselves champion. I like Arthur Abraham, but he is not the middleweight champion, he's just a 160 pound belt (IBF) holder now. Honestly, even unified mean little nowadays because as soon as a fighter wins the belts one of the orgs always strips a belt within the first year and then another follows suit and then fighters that actually should be contenders win those belts and pretty soon, it's right back where it started. What is it now, Abraham with the IBF and doesn't Maselino Masoe hold the WBA 160 title? And to think, Hopkins unified the titles in 2001 and here it is almost 2006 and belts have been stripped. What happened with the IBF, did they strip Jermain Taylor for not fighting their number one? I'm pretty sure that's the case, Taylor was penalized for fighting a return with Hopkins...I'm about sick of current boxing.

[Axe]

DM was the linear champion...he beat Hill who beat Maske and had a win over WBC champ Tiozzo, and then Tiozzo vacated the WBC championship while Hill was the unified champion, effectively confirming Hill's status as #1. Dm beat the man to become the man, a feat which barry's hero Roy Jones never accomplished at 175.

And even without the Tiozzo issue, it should be noted that unifying 2 belts at a weight where the titles are fractured does make you the champ; see Braithwaite-Mormeck (Mormeck was awarded the Ring's belt based on this performance).

[silkov]

As to why Jones did not do what he could to make the fight happen, well I would say that it was because he felt that he had the right to call the shots for such a bout, while DM thought he did and neither man was willing to give the other the advantage. I don't think for one minute that Jones was the least bit concerned about DM, though I'm sure he was concerned about fighting in Germany as he no doubt felt that he could not have gotten a fair shake from the judges, and I'm sure that he wouldn't have. A lot of DM fans like to throw up the Gonzalez bout in response to that, but guess what, Gonzalez is not Roy Jones and the feelings that people have for the two are vastly different. As far as lineal, well there are no true lineal champions in any division today as the true lineal/linear is the man who beat the man and that claim died in every division at some time, or another so all there is today is the unified champ. The alphabet titles have made boxing such a mess that it's ridiculous. They have cheapened the meaning of both champion and contender.

As to the debate about the WBC and that DM earned claim to the title when he won by DQ over Rocchigiani in 1996, well it’s incorrect. Rocchigiani was not even ranked at the time by the WBC; Rocchigiani’s claim did not come into effect until 1998.. I’m pretty sure that Tiozzo did not even vacate the title until he got a shot at the cruiserweight title, which was in 1997, and it was in late 1996 Jones and McCallum fought for the interim title, and the interim label was not dropped until after 1997 when Jones was now the WBC title holder. DM never had any connection whatsoever to the WBC title.

People would still be saying the same thing about Jones even if he would have fought and beat fighters like Steve Collins...after all, he dominated a fighter that out-pointed Collins will relative ease in Reggie Johnson, yet a lot of people don't recognize Johnson for being the excellent fighter he was.

I have to disagree that people would be saying the same things about Jones had he fought people like Collins... one of the main problems with Jones is that despite his talents he seemed to avoid or 'miss' certain matchups. Looking at Collins intense all action style I think he'd have given Jones a tough night. Reggie Johnson was a good boxer but I'd rate Collins higher and his style would have caused Jones more problems. Why didn't Jones search down rematches with Toney and Hopkins?... there are lots of good fights that could have happened had Jones had the mind to make them happen, but too often I think he took the easier route.
Its a simular situation to Sugar Ray Leonard, Leonard fought more outstanding fighters than Jones by quite a way but like Jones was as much a buisnessman as a boxer and this has hurt him in the eyes of the public since.

[barry]

Hill's win over Tiozzo was two years before Tiozzo won a title, sorry but it doesn't count until after a fighter has won a title, you can't use the argument, well he was going to be a champion...he wasn't a champion when Hill defeated him the first time and the second time was at cruiserweight!.

As to the Ring naming the winner of Mormeck-Braithwaite, well they also named Vitali Klistchko the heavyweight champion, and what was that based on? Sorry, but you, the Ring, nor anyone else cannot go around making up new rules to suit your self...it doesn't work that way. Ever since the IBF gained strength the only way to unify is when a fighter wins all three (WBA, WBC and IBF) the WBO has never been in the running of determining a unified champion, and only two titles does not make one the unified champion no matter how much some might wish. You try to say that someone didn't hold that title, which is just a comfortable excuse to use because the title was not really ever vacant. Why do you think that it is always such a big deal for a fighter to unify the "three," not "two" belts and why is that unifying the three is what people talk about? It's no different than if Arthur Abraham fights Maselino Masoe and adds the WBA belt to go with his newly aquired IBF, does that then make him the middleweight champion? NO...and it didn't make DM unified champion either!


As to why did Jones not go searching down rematches, what for, he defeated everyone very easily without question and those that he was not a very clear winner in he did fight again...Jones really had no need to fight any rematches with the likes of Toney, or even Hopkins, who by the way Jones did make something like a five million dollar offer to Hopkins that Hopkins turned down, so how can Jones be held responsible for that bout not happening. Hopkins says that he wanted the bout, but he was not willing to take the lesser cut, he wanted it to be even money, which is just ridiculous since he had no claim whatsoever to get half. Several of the fighters that people mention that Jones did not face, people can go back and see that he did usually fight the fighter that had just beaten such fighters and he always beat those fighters with ease...like Benn, well Jones destroyed Thulaine Malinga. Jones handled not one, but two fighters that beat Collins and a fighter like Collins was easy pickins' for Jones, which that does surprise me that he did not fight Collins, as he would have been all over Collins, but like ever other bout that didn't happen, there is a lot more to the story than just Roy Jones not fighting such and such!

[silkov]

Hill's win over Tiozzo was two years before Tiozzo won a title, sorry but it doesn't count until after a fighter has won a title, you can't use the argument, well he was going to be a champion...he wasn't a champion when Hill defeated him the first time and the second time was at cruiserweight!.

As to the Ring naming the winner of Mormeck-Braithwaite, well they also named Vitali Klistchko the heavyweight champion, and what was that based on? Sorry, but you, the Ring, nor anyone else cannot go around making up new rules to suit your self...it doesn't work that way. Ever since the IBF gained strength the only way to unify is when a fighter wins all three (WBA, WBC and IBF) the WBO has never been in the running of determining a unified champion, and only two titles does not make one the unified champion no matter how much some might wish. You try to say that someone didn't hold that title, which is just a comfortable excuse to use because the title was not really ever vacant. Why do you think that it is always such a big deal for a fighter to unify the "three," not "two" belts and why is that unifying the three is what people talk about? It's no different than if Arthur Abraham fights Maselino Masoe and adds the WBA belt to go with his newly aquired IBF, does that then make him the middleweight champion? NO...and it didn't make DM unified champion either!


As to why did Jones not go searching down rematches, what for, he defeated everyone very easily without question and those that he was not a very clear winner in he did fight again...Jones really had no need to fight any rematches with the likes of Toney, or even Hopkins, who by the way Jones did make something like a five million dollar offer to Hopkins that Hopkins turned down, so how can Jones be held responsible for that bout not happening. Hopkins says that he wanted the bout, but he was not willing to take the lesser cut, he wanted it to be even money, which is just ridiculous since he had no claim whatsoever to get half. Several of the fighters that people mention that Jones did not face, people can go back and see that he did usually fight the fighter that had just beaten such fighters and he always beat those fighters with ease...like Benn, well Jones destroyed Thulaine Malinga. Jones handled not one, but two fighters that beat Collins and a fighter like Collins was easy pickins' for Jones, which that does surprise me that he did not fight Collins, as he would have been all over Collins, but like ever other bout that didn't happen, there is a lot more to the story than just Roy Jones not fighting such and such!

The fights with Toney and Hopkins were very close and merited rematches, also Toney was very badly weight drained for their fight...

[barry]

>>>The fights with Toney and Hopkins were very close<<<

There was nothing close about either bout...and Toney and Hopkins are professionals...Toney has come in during last few bouts looking in worse shape than he ever did for Jones. Toney did what he could, what wasn't much against Jones and the same can be said of Hopkins...Jones out-pointed those two just like he did everyone he faced while in his prime. Criticize Jones if you like, but don't make excuses for the other fighters!

[silkov]

>>>The fights with Toney and Hopkins were very close<<<

There was nothing close about either bout...and Toney and Hopkins are professionals...Toney has come in during last few bouts looking in worse shape than he ever did for Jones. Toney did what he could, what wasn't much against Jones and the same can be said of Hopkins...Jones out-pointed those two just like he did everyone he faced while in his prime. Criticize Jones if you like, but don't make excuses for the other fighters!

Its true though, Toney has been overweight in fights since but against Jones he was weight drained... Toneys problems making the weight were well known even before he fought Jones...

[silkov]

>>>The fights with Toney and Hopkins were very close<<<

There was nothing close about either bout...and Toney and Hopkins are professionals...Toney has come in during last few bouts looking in worse shape than he ever did for Jones. Toney did what he could, what wasn't much against Jones and the same can be said of Hopkins...Jones out-pointed those two just like he did everyone he faced while in his prime. Criticize Jones if you like, but don't make excuses for the other fighters!

I'm surprised that you don't think either bout was close... Jones vs Toney was clear cut but Toney wasn't outclassed and with the weight issues I always wanted to see them fight again... the Hopkins fight was much closer and there wasn't really that much to choose between them at the end of a rather uneventful fight... again, a rematch would have been interesting... can you really say that you wouldn't have liked to see Jones fight either of these two again...

[wolverine1]

Barry wrote: "What happened with the IBF, did they strip Jermain Taylor for not fighting their number one? I'm pretty sure that's the case, Taylor was penalized for fighting a return with Hopkins...I'm about sick of current boxing."quote<<

I read some posts in the current scene about Taylor and possible match-up with Winky Wright. One poster said that Taylor gave up the IBF belt so as not to have to face the mandatory challenger; that way he'd be free to re-match Hopkins. It sounds plausible.

[Autobarn]

Hill's win over Tiozzo was two years before Tiozzo won a title, sorry but it doesn't count until after a fighter has won a title, you can't use the argument, well he was going to be a champion...he wasn't a champion when Hill defeated him the first time and the second time was at cruiserweight!.

As to the Ring naming the winner of Mormeck-Braithwaite, well they also named Vitali Klistchko the heavyweight champion, and what was that based on? Sorry, but you, the Ring, nor anyone else cannot go around making up new rules to suit your self...it doesn't work that way. Ever since the IBF gained strength the only way to unify is when a fighter wins all three (WBA, WBC and IBF) the WBO has never been in the running of determining a unified champion, and only two titles does not make one the unified champion no matter how much some might wish. You try to say that someone didn't hold that title, which is just a comfortable excuse to use because the title was not really ever vacant. Why do you think that it is always such a big deal for a fighter to unify the "three," not "two" belts and why is that unifying the three is what people talk about? It's no different than if Arthur Abraham fights Maselino Masoe and adds the WBA belt to go with his newly aquired IBF, does that then make him the middleweight champion? NO...and it didn't make DM unified champion either!


As to why did Jones not go searching down rematches, what for, he defeated everyone very easily without question and those that he was not a very clear winner in he did fight again...Jones really had no need to fight any rematches with the likes of Toney, or even Hopkins, who by the way Jones did make something like a five million dollar offer to Hopkins that Hopkins turned down, so how can Jones be held responsible for that bout not happening. Hopkins says that he wanted the bout, but he was not willing to take the lesser cut, he wanted it to be even money, which is just ridiculous since he had no claim whatsoever to get half. Several of the fighters that people mention that Jones did not face, people can go back and see that he did usually fight the fighter that had just beaten such fighters and he always beat those fighters with ease...like Benn, well Jones destroyed Thulaine Malinga. Jones handled not one, but two fighters that beat Collins and a fighter like Collins was easy pickins' for Jones, which that does surprise me that he did not fight Collins, as he would have been all over Collins, but like ever other bout that didn't happen, there is a lot more to the story than just Roy Jones not fighting such and such!

as good as Jones' wins over Hopkins and Toney were, neither was near his best. Toney had piled on huge weight, having not fought at his busy schedule ( a fight every 6 weeks) and suffered terrible weight drain. he'd had a couple of months off, and looked like Mr T at the first press conference. anyhow, JT dropped 47 lbs in 4 weeks. the toney who lost to Jones isn't the same guy who waged war with McCallum, in one of the best fights of all time.

Hopkins at the time was very limited, and couldn't throw a straight punch. Hopkins wasn't p4p material until 1997, whe he became an offensive machine and defensive genius. also, Jones admitted oon the telecast of Hopkins-Simon Brown that he had a neary 20-pound weight advantage on Hopkins. At m/w, RJ came in the ring as a light heavy or more. he wouldn't have been as good with weigh ins on the day of the fight, and thus wouldn't have been as effective in previous eras.

another HOF'er, McCallum, was 20 lbs over his prime weight and had slowed to a crawl. the great old technician had two wars with bigger, stronger guys at 175 that wore him out. plus, his best wins came between '86-91

Collins wouldn't have been able to do much with Jones, IMO, but Benn & Julian Jackson had puncher's chances considering Roy's chin. McClellan and Michalczewski might well have overpowered him. Nunn would have been difficult, as Jones hates tall s/paws. I think Jones would have beaten MN, but preferred not to go through the difficulty.

the thing is, Roy didn't take these fights, so we def. can't assume he'd have won.

[silkov]

Hill's win over Tiozzo was two years before Tiozzo won a title, sorry but it doesn't count until after a fighter has won a title, you can't use the argument, well he was going to be a champion...he wasn't a champion when Hill defeated him the first time and the second time was at cruiserweight!.

As to the Ring naming the winner of Mormeck-Braithwaite, well they also named Vitali Klistchko the heavyweight champion, and what was that based on? Sorry, but you, the Ring, nor anyone else cannot go around making up new rules to suit your self...it doesn't work that way. Ever since the IBF gained strength the only way to unify is when a fighter wins all three (WBA, WBC and IBF) the WBO has never been in the running of determining a unified champion, and only two titles does not make one the unified champion no matter how much some might wish. You try to say that someone didn't hold that title, which is just a comfortable excuse to use because the title was not really ever vacant. Why do you think that it is always such a big deal for a fighter to unify the "three," not "two" belts and why is that unifying the three is what people talk about? It's no different than if Arthur Abraham fights Maselino Masoe and adds the WBA belt to go with his newly aquired IBF, does that then make him the middleweight champion? NO...and it didn't make DM unified champion either!


As to why did Jones not go searching down rematches, what for, he defeated everyone very easily without question and those that he was not a very clear winner in he did fight again...Jones really had no need to fight any rematches with the likes of Toney, or even Hopkins, who by the way Jones did make something like a five million dollar offer to Hopkins that Hopkins turned down, so how can Jones be held responsible for that bout not happening. Hopkins says that he wanted the bout, but he was not willing to take the lesser cut, he wanted it to be even money, which is just ridiculous since he had no claim whatsoever to get half. Several of the fighters that people mention that Jones did not face, people can go back and see that he did usually fight the fighter that had just beaten such fighters and he always beat those fighters with ease...like Benn, well Jones destroyed Thulaine Malinga. Jones handled not one, but two fighters that beat Collins and a fighter like Collins was easy pickins' for Jones, which that does surprise me that he did not fight Collins, as he would have been all over Collins, but like ever other bout that didn't happen, there is a lot more to the story than just Roy Jones not fighting such and such!

as good as Jones' wins over Hopkins and Toney were, neither was near his best. Toney had piled on huge weight, having not fought at his busy schedule ( a fight every 6 weeks) and suffered terrible weight drain. he'd had a couple of months off, and looked like Mr T at the first press conference. anyhow, JT dropped 47 lbs in 4 weeks. the toney who lost to Jones isn't the same guy who waged war with McCallum, in one of the best fights of all time.

Hopkins at the time was very limited, and couldn't throw a straight punch. Hopkins wasn't p4p material until 1997, whe he became an offensive machine and defensive genius. also, Jones admitted oon the telecast of Hopkins-Simon Brown that he had a neary 20-pound weight advantage on Hopkins. At m/w, RJ came in the ring as a light heavy or more. he wouldn't have been as good with weigh ins on the day of the fight, and thus wouldn't have been as effective in previous eras.

another HOF'er, McCallum, was 20 lbs over his prime weight and had slowed to a crawl. the great old technician had two wars with bigger, stronger guys at 175 that wore him out. plus, his best wins came between '86-91

Collins wouldn't have been able to do much with Jones, IMO, but Benn & Julian Jackson had puncher's chances considering Roy's chin. McClellan and Michalczewski might well have overpowered him. Nunn would have been difficult, as Jones hates tall s/paws. I think Jones would have beaten MN, but preferred not to go through the difficulty.

the thing is, Roy didn't take these fights, so we def. can't assume he'd have won.

Collins high workrate would have given Jones problems... he would have smothered Jones and not let him dictate the pace of the fight... at his best I think Collins would have had a good chance against Jones.
Toneys weight problems were well known as I've already said earlier and he was well below his true form against Jones... but Jones never wanted to know about a rematch.

[barry]

Collins did well against other smothering types of fighters, but when faced against very good boxers, he always had problems and at that weight Jones could really bang and knock people out, fighters that had never been down, or out before and Jones put them down with relative ease. I don't think Jones would have had much difficulty at all with Collins. Honestly, I don't think Jones would have had problems with anyone, during his time in the ring, at that weight, or below. He was just too fast and hit too hard at 168 and below. About the only fighter that I saw at that weight who could have been a real dangerous challenge was Gerald McClellan.

[Autobarn]

I think Toney would've had a good shot, if he'd have been in shape. He was in horrid shape v Jones, though that wasn't Jones' fault. no energy / reflexes. I think the counters he was trying that just missed/grazed Jones could've done some damage had he stayed focused, stayed busy etc.

[Ezzard]

Jones clearly beat Toney but I was surprised that there wasn't a rematch. I'd have thought Toney would have wanted to get in there again. I was also surpsrised not to see a rematch with Hopkins. It's a shame those fights didn't happen too.

[Autobarn]

Jones clearly beat Toney but I was surprised that there wasn't a rematch. I'd have thought Toney would have wanted to get in there again. I was also surpsrised not to see a rematch with Hopkins. It's a shame those fights didn't happen too.

Are you kidding? Toney was terrified at the prospect of getting down to 168 again.

there was talk of a rematch at 175, when Toney looked like Toney again. after the Earl Butler fight. but then he went all lethargic and let Griffin edge him again. then he let his weight balloon, and ended up so drained that he passed out before the Thadzi fight. Thadzi of course outworked him. I think Toney's confidence was low and discipline horrid until he sorted himself out at cruiser (vs Robinson, Jirov).

great fighter on his day, was Toney. I love the Nunn, McCallum (I and II), DeWitt, Barkley, PC Williams, Littles, Thornton, Jason Robinson and Jirov performances. connect the dots and you have a future Hall of Famer. in spite of the fornicate ups he did...

[Autobarn]

After the Griffin loss?!?!? Why the hell would Jones have taken that fight? And he was hardly comfortable at 175.

HBO felt that if JT looked good vs Griffin II they could sell Jones-Toney II. Toney had just blasted out Earl Butler and ppl were thinking that the old Lights Out was back. Toney was a great fighter when he got his shit together and many felt he could do better if he wasn't so drained. But Toney could't quit nail Griffin, and then he had the same weight problems when he fought Thadzi, collapsing befiore that fight...

[Axe]

barry, apparently youre too in love with these sancioning body belts. Larry Holmes never unified the belts, yet he was the linear champ, yet he was the linear champ, and Michael Spinks became the linear champ by beating him. Holmes never even ujnified two belts, and he dumped his WBC for the then unknown IBF belt. Hill, like Holmes, was the man at 175, which was confirmed by him beating Henry Maske (touted as the #1 by many back then). Michalczewski then beat him for the crown.

End of story.

[barry]

>>>barry, apparently youre too in love with these sancioning body belts.<<<


Like your other arguements, you fail to know much....I've ebeen on of the biggest critics to the sactioning bodies, but anyone that knows anything knows in order to become the one, undisputed champion of a division then said fighter must unify the three main titles, sorry but the WBO has never counted and it still doesn't, but still yet your hero DM failed to unify the three belts that one must unify in order to become undisputed and no matter how much you wish, DM never accomplished it, not only that but he avoided every top ten fighter in order to defend his bogus WBO title against the weakest opposition that I have ever seen a supposed champion face...ever...real championship heart there! Sorry, but one day you'll get over it!

[barry]

Speaking of Hill, I hear a lot of people claiming Jones dodged and avoided so and so, Hill was a specialist at dodging quality light heavyweights...almost as good as DM at it, though Hill did face some actual top ten light heavyweights during his long reign, DM only a couple.

There is no lineal/linear light heavyweight champion, there hasn't been in many, many years. The last fighter to really hold sway was Spinks and it could certainly be argued in favor of Jones, since he did win every single title out there, except the WBO, which has never been a coveted title to begin with.

[barry]

Decagon---The hardcore DM fans fail to look at facts...or else axe would have never mentioned Holmes, because as the rest of us already knew, Holmes became the man when he beat Ali, who was the man who beat the man...DM never was that man!

[Autobarn]

who cares about a WBC belt, when DM beat the guy that last held the WBC belt fairly? it doesn't make him WBC champ, but sometimes fights mean more than just belts. the WBO does count, it's no worse than any other. Calzaghe-Lacy is classed as a unification, no?

the current scene shows us that no belt is better or worse than another. is brewter less a champion than Chris Byrd?

like i've asserted before, WBO champ Barber was beating the same guys that the IBF and WBA champs had been beating. He showed more fighting ability against DM than Hill did. More grit, more accurate punching, better defense.

yes, Hill was expert at ducking. Most of the time, his best opponents were guys he didn't know of, like Tiozzo who gave him a bit of a surprise. Still, Hill beat a fine boxer in Leslie Stewart to win the belt, and proved he was the man by beating Maske (who beat a major title holder in PC Williams). and who was that Germany based Pole that spanked Hill?

btw, Jones coveted the WBO belt. he went after a fight with heavyweight Corrie Sanders, but RJ pulled out with a 'motorcycle crash' excuse when he learned the WBO title wouldn't be on the line.

Look at the trash belts RJ collected - forget the proper ones, i.e. the WBC, which he was given, and the WBA and IBF titles that he didn't have to go through anyone difficult to get: IBO, WBF, IBA and NBA lol

i love how barry lumps everyone who doesn't agree with him as a 'hardcore DM' fan. his arguments are so obnoxious that ppl can't help but argue against him.

[barry]

Axe is a hardcore DM fan! I didn't say you were, but you act like it.

No matter what kind of excuses you guys try to make for DM, or the reason why he didn't get such and such belt, or that he defeated a one time holder of the belt, none of it is fact and no manner of excuses will change the fact of the matter...

There is a big difference between fact and opinion...mine is fact as it is plainly backed up by actual happenings, or non-happenings that occured in the ring, you guys give your opinions, which is backed up by nothing except your own words, which most certainly do not pass as fact, even if you wish it did.

Why is it so hard to accept the true facts? I'll tell you why, because hardcore DM fans cannot do it, which is why many of you are lumped into that category of "Hardcore DM fan." Is that explained plain enough for you?

[dalek]

Decagon---The hardcore DM fans fail to look at facts...or else axe would have never mentioned Holmes, because as the rest of us already knew, Holmes became the man when he beat Ali, who was the man who beat the man...DM never was that man!

even so any decent fighter would have beaten ali.did jack johnson not become champ until he beat jeffries?

[barry]

Jack Johnson has absolutely nothing to do with Darius Michacweski and it's an even bigger insult putting Johnson's name with DM than the Holmes statement was!

Speaking of trash belts...the WBO sucks hind teet in the belt category. It's goes a little something like this,

WBA, WBC (Both 1960s) and then the IBF (1984) and then the WBO (1988)...though they all suck now, but at least Jones fought top ten contenders recognized by not only the big three orgs, but also top ten contenders that every ranking system in the world named...he defended against the best light weights around while DM doodled around fighting his usual chump-change that the "prestigous" WBO allowed him to fight, fighters that wasn't even in the top twenty of rankings bodies like Ring mag, or BI...there is no denying that.

Obxoxious, sure, because I know that I am right and that really pisses off a lot of people, but they'll just have to get over it! When I'm wrong I don't care to admit it, but I'm not going to apologize because I know more than most...call it cocky, obnoxious, or whatever...the facts is, most of the time I am right!