BoxRec

Didn't Riddick Bowe get away with several low blows against Pierre Coetzer ?

Any Tyson fight, he always threw the elbow as well as the punch and I don't think he was ever cautioned, vicious and blatant cheating.....

...the "liston camp buying ali's contract" story is in nick tosche's book "the devil and sonny listion". as far as i know it's a rumor and nothing more...can't find any documentation and tosches is not a reliable source. not saying it didn't happen...just asking for a better source and if anyone here knows of one, print it.

Ali did an awful lopt of holding behind the head ( especially Frazier III) and never lost a point that I know of.

Ray Leonard was a dirty fighter. It never gets spoken about but his fighting after the bell was almost a given.

What's thjis about Holmes' "blue bottle"? I've never ehard this one and I'm very interested.

Cheating and dirty tactics in the ring is wrong but when it comes to it you've got to do what you've got to do. Stimulants and drug taking is clearly very different.

Collins2000 wrote:

Seamus wrote:OK fight fans, what were the most blatant-illegal-vicious fouls in boxing history, in which the perpetrator got away with his dirty deeds without being disqualified ?

Some off the top of my head from fairly recent memory.

1. Vasili Jirov rabbit punching Joe Mesi
2. Nigel Benn rabbit punching and headbutting Gerald McClellan.
3. Nigel Benn for landing two shots to the head after Iran Barkley was down the first and second times.
4. Roberto Duran thumbing Davey Moore in the eye.
5. Donald Curry (usually a clean fighter) thumbing James "Hard Rock" Green in the eye.


Remember, only fights where the guy got away with it.

Was that an intentional butt by Benn or just a clash of heads? What round was it in?

Benn doesn't seem to get much credit for beating McClellan who many, even now, consider some sort of great. Personally, apart from crushing a couple of well past their prime good fighters, I never saw what the fuss was about Gerald. He was a decent fighter but there were many decent fighters around that weight at the time. But Benn ought to get some sort of credit.

Collins

Totally agree about Benn. He won the fight in an exteremely gutsy display. There's no doubt he was supposed to be just another name on McClellan's fight record and I dio agree that he got a bit of help from the ref in round 1 but Benn was brilliant that night. Benn eserves the plaudits.

I do think McClellan was a very good fighter though, just that he'd come to rely too much on his power.

Decagon wrote:

Jaclem wrote:...the "liston camp buying ali's contract" story is in nick tosche's book "the devil and sonny listion". as far as i know it's a rumor and nothing more...can't find any documentation and tosches is not a reliable source. not saying it didn't happen...just asking for a better source and if anyone here knows of one, print it.

Shit. Thanks for clearing that up. I should have known not to take anything in that book at face value after the part that says Moore took a dive against Marciano. With the contract evidence, Tosches's argument isn't that strong, although I bought into the idea that Liston surely didn't look anything like the fighter he'd been in earlier fights.

And now that the 1930 census has been made public, Tosches's theory that Liston was born in the 1920s has been blown to pieces as well.

Deca ... I've never read Tosche's book, so I have no opinion on the "contract buy out" theory other than that, between insiders and fans alike, there are enough people in and around the sport of boxing that it seems more people would have knowledge of said buy out, if in fact this buy out actually occurred. I guess I've never been one to believe a lot of things I read just because a biographer is presumed an expert on the subject matter. Lot of biographical accounts are quite tainted by the agendas and biases of their authors.

As for Liston's tactics in the 5th round, I've watched that fight probably a dozen times and it really appears Liston steps on the gas in that 5th round while he thinks he's got the advantage of Clay not being able to see. Compare how he goes after Clay to how he'd fought the rounds before the 5th round. Up to that point he was being embarrassed.

I didn't think much of Nick Tosche's book about
Sonny Liston, to put it mildly. Liston is one
boxing figure who would be a good subject for
a first-rate biography.

Yes, a U.S. Census is available to the public seventy-two
years after it was enumerated. In other words, the
1930 Census was released for public viewing in 2002.

Were Liston's parents and older siblings listed in the the
1930 U.S. Census? If not, it still is possible that Liston
was born in the 1920s. After all, the enumerators missed
quite a number of people.

- Chuck Johnston

Decagon wrote:I know, but he's not hitting a guy who can't see. It's hard to understand how a blinded fighter - even Muhammad Ali - can defend himself better than all those guys Liston fought in 1958 through 1962.

I think it's not a matter of whether Ali literally couldn't see anything! It's more a matter of Ali's eyesight being impaired, kind of like anyone's would be if some kind of liniment got rubbed in there. If it had been applied to Liston's gloves between rounds, all he'd have had to do is manage to touch his gloves on Ali's face (very easy to do in a clinch) and Ali could've later spread it into his own eyes. Fighters touch their faces with their own gloves all the time to wipe away sweat.

Decagon wrote:I know, but he's not hitting a guy who can't see. It's hard to understand how a blinded fighter - even Muhammad Ali - can defend himself better than all those guys Liston fought in 1958 through 1962.

For most of the 5th round Ali wasn't really defending himself, but was more in survival mode. As noted, he wasn't completely blinded, but had blurred vision, so he got on his bicycle to avoid being hit. He wasn't the first, nor the last fighter to "fight" like this, and it worked quite well as his vision improved later in the round so he could continue his beat down on the big, slow bully.

I think all three of the knockdowns were rabbit punches.

Tyson has added a slick and dirty little arm lock to his already solid repertoire of questionable tactics.Its a move commonly seen in Judo and Jujutsu. Involves wrapping your arm outside opponents arm and putting pressure on the elbow. Usally its done on the ground. Tyson has learned how to do it standing. He almost broke Frans Bothas arm with it.Did it to someone else also .Icant remember who.

If one wants to see a fighter who committed alot of fouls,
take a look at a tape of Eusebio Pedroza in his bout
with Juan Laporte.

- Chuck Johnston