BoxRec

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 11:07 Williams was a good boxer with a solid skillset and an especially good jab. Yes, his chin was pretty weak and that had been the main problem, because of which Carl wasn't able to fully realise his potential.

He WASN'T a good boxer... He was WIDE OPEN for left hooks...

He was a sitting duck for Mike Tyson... That's the 8th time he got dropped with left hooks... Williams ran into hooks left and right.. He ducked into them, got clipped leaning back from them, or just had his right hand down when they were coming... He never closed the hole... It was like Wladimir Klitschko before he got with Steward - straight lefts from a tall southpaw like Sanders ripped him out.. It's a very unusual angle and he couldn't pick them up.. Or Michael Moorer with straight shots down the middle, you couldn't miss him with his wide guard.. You can't have any holes or somebody is going to find them.. There's a 100 guys who can throw great left hooks and Tyson was one.

Williams looked great against Larry Holmes because Holmes didn't have a quick, powerful left hook... Holmes was old, soft, and slow... He was ready to be taken and had no strength and no gas - or he would have put Williams away in the 9th.

Williams was tall for his day... He had a fast jab and good feet... It takes more than 1, 2, or 3 skills to make a boxer.

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:35

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 11:07 Williams was a good boxer with a solid skillset and an especially good jab. Yes, his chin was pretty weak and that had been the main problem, because of which Carl wasn't able to fully realise his potential.

He WASN'T a good boxer... He was WIDE OPEN for left hooks...

He was a sitting duck for Mike Tyson... That's the 8th time he got dropped with left hooks... Williams ran into hooks left and right.. He ducked into them, got clipped leaning back from them, or just had his right hand down when they were coming... He never closed the hole... It was like Wladimir Klitschko before he got with Steward - straight lefts from a tall southpaw like Sanders ripped him out.. It's a very unusual angle and he couldn't pick them up.. Or Michael Moorer with straight shots down the middle, you couldn't miss him with his wide guard.. You can't have any holes or somebody is going to find them.. There's a 100 guys who can throw great left hooks and Tyson was one.

Williams looked great against Larry Holmes because Holmes didn't have a quick, powerful left hook... Holmes was old, soft, and slow... He was ready to be taken and had no strength and no gas - or he would have put Williams away in the 9th.

Williams was tall for his day... He had a fast jab and good feet... It takes more than 1, 2, or 3 skills to make a boxer.

Ali has eaten plenty of left hooks through his career, so he isn't a good boxer? If he had no such great chin, that he actually had possessed, he would have been dropped more than Williams. Carl had weak chin, but that didn't made him a bad boxer.

Contrary to some individual's opinions to the contrary, Williams was, indeed, a very good boxer. And those skills when combined with his highly effective, stiff jab & above average power made him a very good fighter. One of the better contenders of his era, in fact. But, he did have his flaws. Chief among them being his decidedly average chin.
Now, some might be inclined to say that he had a bad chin, but IMO a heavyweight with a bad chin would have suffered KO losses to journeyman opponents while in their prime. Which wasn't the case with Williams. He could be dropped but he was often able to recover from multiple knockdowns & if not come back to win ( as he did vs James "Quick" Tillis & Jesse Ferguson ) to at least be competitive ( vs Tommy Morrison ).
IMO Williams was very unlucky to not have gotten the nod over Larry Holmes in their title fight as he spent many rounds clearly outjabbing Holmes & getting the better of their exchanges. Something that a fighter with poor boxing skills wouldn't have been able to do. I had Williams winning the Holmes bout via a score of 144-142 or 8-6-1 in rounds. And, at the time I was cheering for Holmes to retain his title.

Competent boxer with a solid jab and good offensive skills, but he was too easy to hit. He didn't have a great chin either. Sure beat Holmes though.

What was bad about that fight was that it seemed that Williams won easily. Not only did they give it Holmes, but they actually had Holmes winning easily.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Apr 2018, 10:58 What was bad about that fight was that it seemed that Williams won easily. Not only did they give it Holmes, but they actually had Holmes winning easily.

One thing is for sure: if Carl beat Larry, Spinks would not come into the picture.

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:55

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:35

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 11:07 Williams was a good boxer with a solid skillset and an especially good jab. Yes, his chin was pretty weak and that had been the main problem, because of which Carl wasn't able to fully realise his potential.

He WASN'T a good boxer... He was WIDE OPEN for left hooks...

He was a sitting duck for Mike Tyson... That's the 8th time he got dropped with left hooks... Williams ran into hooks left and right.. He ducked into them, got clipped leaning back from them, or just had his right hand down when they were coming... He never closed the hole... It was like Wladimir Klitschko before he got with Steward - straight lefts from a tall southpaw like Sanders ripped him out.. It's a very unusual angle and he couldn't pick them up.. Or Michael Moorer with straight shots down the middle, you couldn't miss him with his wide guard.. You can't have any holes or somebody is going to find them.. There's a 100 guys who can throw great left hooks and Tyson was one.

Williams looked great against Larry Holmes because Holmes didn't have a quick, powerful left hook... Holmes was old, soft, and slow... He was ready to be taken and had no strength and no gas - or he would have put Williams away in the 9th.

Williams was tall for his day... He had a fast jab and good feet... It takes more than 1, 2, or 3 skills to make a boxer.

Ali has eaten plenty of left hooks through his career, so he isn't a good boxer? If he had no such great chin, that he actually had possessed, he would have been dropped more than Williams. Carl had weak chin, but that didn't made him a bad boxer.

I don't think William's chin was that bad.... He just got clipped a lot... Ali was a great fighter more than a great boxer... With his chin and his durability he would try to outlast you... Ali never faced a hooker like Tyson...

Kalan wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 06:36

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:55

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:35

He WASN'T a good boxer... He was WIDE OPEN for left hooks...

He was a sitting duck for Mike Tyson... That's the 8th time he got dropped with left hooks... Williams ran into hooks left and right.. He ducked into them, got clipped leaning back from them, or just had his right hand down when they were coming... He never closed the hole... It was like Wladimir Klitschko before he got with Steward - straight lefts from a tall southpaw like Sanders ripped him out.. It's a very unusual angle and he couldn't pick them up.. Or Michael Moorer with straight shots down the middle, you couldn't miss him with his wide guard.. You can't have any holes or somebody is going to find them.. There's a 100 guys who can throw great left hooks and Tyson was one.

Williams looked great against Larry Holmes because Holmes didn't have a quick, powerful left hook... Holmes was old, soft, and slow... He was ready to be taken and had no strength and no gas - or he would have put Williams away in the 9th.

Williams was tall for his day... He had a fast jab and good feet... It takes more than 1, 2, or 3 skills to make a boxer.

Ali has eaten plenty of left hooks through his career, so he isn't a good boxer? If he had no such great chin, that he actually had possessed, he would have been dropped more than Williams. Carl had weak chin, but that didn't made him a bad boxer.

I don't think William's chin was that bad.... He just got clipped a lot... Ali was a great fighter more than a great boxer... With his chin and his durability he would try to outlast you... Ali never faced a hooker like Tyson...

Well, of course, Williams' chin wasn't the worst, but it was weak. Morrison dropped him not even with a hook, but a jab in the 3rd. And Ali faced Frazier and stood up after his left hook, furthermore, after that he took clean punches of Shavers, so I don't think, that his chin should have been tested by Tyson or somebody else to be called granite.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: ↑29 Dec 2008, 15:49

cybox wrote:The Truth had the size, the reach, the jab and the heart to be a champion. He just was in the wrong era at the wrong time. Holmes and TYson were too much at the time and Williams never had a solid chin. I would say Williams would have done much better against today's heavyweights and would have been champion...plus he had a cool nickname "The Truth"

Agreed. It wouldn't be easy, but I think he'd beat peak versions of either Klitschko.

That's pretty bold! I'm not saying you're wrong, but definitely bold.

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 08:06

Kalan wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 06:36

DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Apr 2018, 15:55

Ali has eaten plenty of left hooks through his career, so he isn't a good boxer? If he had no such great chin, that he actually had possessed, he would have been dropped more than Williams. Carl had weak chin, but that didn't made him a bad boxer.

I don't think William's chin was that bad.... He just got clipped a lot... Ali was a great fighter more than a great boxer... With his chin and his durability he would try to outlast you... Ali never faced a hooker like Tyson...

Well, of course, Williams' chin wasn't the worst, but it was weak. Morrison dropped him not even with a hook, but a jab in the 3rd. And Ali faced Frazier and stood up after his left hook, furthermore, after that he took clean punches of Shavers, so I don't think, that his chin should have been tested by Tyson or somebody else to be called granite.

None of those guys were as strong as Tyson.. Frazier couldn't press 160 pounds and was weak as shitt.. Smokin' Joe was a Cruiserweight.. Shavers traded punches with Quarry, Stander, Cobb, Lyle, and Mercado.. They all flattened him... Ali never got hit by anybody with a left hook like Tyson... Considering what 185-pound Henry Cooper did to Ali - Tyson blows his candles out like he did to Holmes and Michael Spinks... Tyson is the only man to KO either... He'd get rid of the hittable Ali.

Kalan wrote: ↑21 Apr 2018, 00:54

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 08:06

Kalan wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 06:36

I don't think William's chin was that bad.... He just got clipped a lot... Ali was a great fighter more than a great boxer... With his chin and his durability he would try to outlast you... Ali never faced a hooker like Tyson...

Well, of course, Williams' chin wasn't the worst, but it was weak. Morrison dropped him not even with a hook, but a jab in the 3rd. And Ali faced Frazier and stood up after his left hook, furthermore, after that he took clean punches of Shavers, so I don't think, that his chin should have been tested by Tyson or somebody else to be called granite.

None of those guys were as strong as Tyson.. Frazier couldn't press 160 pounds and was weak as shitt.. Smokin' Joe was a Cruiserweight.. Shavers traded punches with Quarry, Stander, Cobb, Lyle, and Mercado.. They all flattened him... Ali never got hit by anybody with a left hook like Tyson... Considering what 185-pound Henry Cooper did to Ali - Tyson blows his candles out like he did to Holmes and Michael Spinks... Tyson is the only man to KO either... He'd get rid of the hittable Ali.

You sound like a Tyson fanboy, for whom everybody can't be compared to Mike. How Frazier was weak, when he was battering everyone, he had met, except only Foreman? How Shavers' losses affect his punching power? Yes, Shavers wasn't too skillful, but he had a great punching power for sure.

DrDuke wrote: ↑21 Apr 2018, 03:27

Kalan wrote: ↑21 Apr 2018, 00:54

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Apr 2018, 08:06

Well, of course, Williams' chin wasn't the worst, but it was weak. Morrison dropped him not even with a hook, but a jab in the 3rd. And Ali faced Frazier and stood up after his left hook, furthermore, after that he took clean punches of Shavers, so I don't think, that his chin should have been tested by Tyson or somebody else to be called granite.

None of those guys were as strong as Tyson.. Frazier couldn't press 160 pounds and was weak as shitt.. Smokin' Joe was a Cruiserweight.. Shavers traded punches with Quarry, Stander, Cobb, Lyle, and Mercado.. They all flattened him... Ali never got hit by anybody with a left hook like Tyson... Considering what 185-pound Henry Cooper did to Ali - Tyson blows his candles out like he did to Holmes and Michael Spinks... Tyson is the only man to KO either... He'd get rid of the hittable Ali.

You sound like a Tyson fanboy, for whom everybody can't be compared to Mike. How Frazier was weak, when he was battering everyone, he had met, except only Foreman? How Shavers' losses affect his punching power? Yes, Shavers wasn't too skillful, but he had a great punching power for sure.

You're talking to the wrong choir here, DD.

Kalan has previously opined that Shavers really wasn't that hard of a puncher.

It's not that Shavers couldn't punch hard... He could... He couldn't punch as hard as some mythologize about.

He hit Lyle and Holmes as good as you can hit somebody... It's not like nobody ever knocked them out.

When Tyson hit Holmes, Larry went coo coo birds... I wasn't impressed with Tyson's skills... If he were in with a tall, 235-plus Heavyweight with great speed, power, and skill he was in trouble.. But Mike could hit.. If you didn't have great size, strength and punching power he'd run through you.. Carl Williams is one of many who Mike ran over without flinching.. Shavers couldn't get Ron Stander or Bob Stallings out... Mike would ice the lad.

Same with Foreman... He'd take the best Shavers could muster and leave him stretched out cold on the canvas.

Shavers was the hardest one punch ko artist in the history of the HW division. Period.

Bullcrap.... Stander was WIDE OPEN... Shavers said he hit him so hard he nearly broke his shoulder...

Nothing happened.... Except when Shavers got exhausted from swinging he was knocked COLD ... an ice job.

Shavers was the hardest one punch ko artist in the history of the HW division. Period.

oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Apr 2018, 15:32 Shavers was the hardest one punch ko artist in the history of the HW division. Period.

Shavers fought Stander a year after his debut if I'm not mistaken.

Stander was greener than Shavers... He had 9 fights... Shavers had 13 fights.

In Standers' 4 fights leading up to Shavers his opponents had a grand total of 4 wins.... In Shavers' 4 fights leading up to Stander his opponents had a grand total of 31 wins.

I'm not trying to draw a lot from their experience. They were both green.. Shavers had better coaching.. However green he was he was still a swinger... He landed very well and did his best to KO Stander... Foreman would have iced the kid.

Kalan wrote: ↑21 Apr 2018, 18:15 Stander was greener than Shavers... He had 9 fights... Shavers had 13 fights.

In Standers' 4 fights leading up to Shavers his opponents had a grand total of 4 wins.... In Shavers' 4 fights leading up to Stander his opponents had a grand total of 31 wins.

I'm not trying to draw a lot from their experience. They were both green.. Shavers had better coaching.. However green he was he was still a swinger... He landed very well and did his best to KO Stander... Foreman would have iced the kid.

Kalan, you are incorrect on this one. I shan't be responding anymore.

Good.... Because you're mind is made up .... and you don't want to be confused by the facts.