BoxRec

jamesmcdonnell wrote:This may be so, but if, and it's big IF, Calzaghe beats Lacy, then you and a lot of other dumbasses are going to be eating a lot of crow pie.

To call him Calwhoee is ridiculous, what other fighter at SM has achieved more to date? Lacy hasn't faced a prime dangerman yet, Kessler is still a way off matching Calzaghe's resume, and Ottke, the king of the hometown decision is retired.

I'm no Calzaghe apologist, but to date there is nobody else in the division who boasts a better record, and if he does beat Lacy, then he will have proven a very big point.

Ask Eubank if he thinks he would have beaten Calzaghe in his 92/93 prime and his answer is an honest - "Possibly knocked him out, probably stopped him but unlikely I would win on points, but I would have bust him up a bit more than I did"

Calzaghe would have beaten a prime Watson, Benn and Collins on points. Watson would have given him his toughest fight. McCallum, Nunn and maybe a 12 stone Toney would have beaten JC. IMO

jamesmcdonnell wrote:This may be so, but if, and it's big IF, Calzaghe beats Lacy, then you and a lot of other dumbasses are going to be eating a lot of crow pie.

To call him Calwhoee is ridiculous, what other fighter at SM has achieved more to date? Lacy hasn't faced a prime dangerman yet, Kessler is still a way off matching Calzaghe's resume, and Ottke, the king of the hometown decision is retired.

I'm no Calzaghe apologist, but to date there is nobody else in the division who boasts a better record, and if he does beat Lacy, then he will have proven a very big point.

Well, Calzahge's record is long but shallow. Kessler's and Lacy's records are shorter because they are younger (Kessler has more fights, but he is 26 and his first 20 fights or so simply susbtitute for an extensive amateur career); but if you compare who they have fought in the past two years or so they are already way ahead of Calzwhoeee. They hold promise, while Calzaghe has betrayed promise. Ahead of JC is also Beyer - Calwhoeee has never fought beware of beaten someone of Green's quality (perhaps fighters who earlier in their live used to have Green's quality, but this is something else). Beyer also lost a couple of fights against strong oppositon or got doubtful wins, but this is because he fought strong opposition in the first place, while Calzaghe has avoided strong opposition like cats avoid water.

One can endlessly speculate about woulda coulda shoulda - Calazghe fans are specialists in this and tend to tell us he woulda coulda shoulda beat any living man under the sun - but Calzgahe never does.

I was excited about Calzaghe in the late 90s, but that's long passed. There is no excuse for such a shameful career. IF he fights and beats Lacy we talk again (I won't eat crow but will grudgingly give him somewhat more respect), but with Calzaghe I wanna see facts before jumping to conclusions.

Cheers,
P

boxingchat wrote:Calzaghe would have beaten a prime Watson, Benn and Collins on points. Watson would have given him his toughest fight. McCallum, Nunn and maybe a 12 stone Toney would have beaten JC. IMO

Calzahge....

woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda woulda coulda shoulda XYZ

.... in his fans' opinion.

He HAS beaten Miguel Jimenez, Evans Ashira, Mgyr Mgrhdycbsgwtwhdgabdkldi, and Tucker Pudwill.

P

pundit wrote:
Ahead of JC is also Beyer - Calwhoeee has never fought beware of beaten someone of Green's quality (perhaps fighters who earlier in their live used to have Green's quality, but this is something else). Beyer also lost a couple of fights against strong oppositon or got doubtful wins, but this is because he fought strong opposition in the first place, while Calzaghe has avoided strong opposition like cats avoid water.

You must be a Beyer fan...c'mon, Green was/is a near novice - a classy boxer like Beyer should outpoint him.
Not any better than Reid or Mitchell.

And the Eubank he floored and well beat was still a very dangerous fighter - next fight he was giving a life and death struggle with the massive punching Carl Thompson ( who couldn't floor Chris ).

Anyway, check back after JC has handed Lacy his head on a plate and we'll talk again

boxingchat wrote:Calzaghe would have beaten a prime Watson, Benn and Collins on points. Watson would have given him his toughest fight. McCallum, Nunn and maybe a 12 stone Toney would have beaten JC. IMO

Think Watson would have beaten him to be honest would have been a close one, but Watson was the best of his era in my opinion.

McCallum would have boxed his way to a close but deserved win, Nunn would have been too slick and Toney (if he came in in proper shape) would have had too much of evertything.

what you guys have to remember when comparing Calzaghe with
Eubank, Benn, Watson is that they came from the same day weigh in era and were MIDDLE weights..... 11stone 6... Calzaghe weighs in the day before and struggles to get to 12stone... the guys are two divisions apart.. Calzaghe would have been a career light heavy if he had to weigh in on the day...

That's a good point actually KO......

However, Collins and Eubank both looked bigger than Calzaghe does come fight night. Not sure where all that weight is on Calzaghe, because he isn't very tall, not that thickset or muscular.

knockout wrote:what you guys have to remember when comparing Calzaghe with
Eubank, Benn, Watson is that they came from the same day weigh in era and were MIDDLE weights..... 11stone 6... Calzaghe weighs in the day before and struggles to get to 12stone... the guys are two divisions apart.. Calzaghe would have been a career light heavy if he had to weigh in on the day...

Rubbish, they all weighed in the day before after 1991.

Terence wrote:I think Ottke gets unfairly maligned by many fans. By the Ring's ever shifting HBO decided criteria he did partially unify and Mitchell was #2 or 3 when they fought, Ottke picked up two legitimate belts and beat a few guys before Joe got to them. A lot of the fights he had were close because he had a conservative style but I don't think he lost many of them, only Reid was truly jobbed. Ottke did then what Joe and Jeff are doing (unifying partially) but got no respect. So he fought in his home country, Joe is hardly the road warrior is he?

I think Joe has been pretty poor, his fans deserved more and the excuses have been more entertaining than the fights. Walking around cradling his sore arm then posting a photo of his cast on the website was pretty crass IMO and a means to win support. I don't know about regular fans but in the gyms around Manchester a lot of the fighters and trainers are saying that they hope to see Lacy win, I'm not sure how great a reaction Joe will get as Shaw fighters are respected in this city for being approachable and good guys, Joe is seen as a bit of a tool. He should have went out and taken the division years ago IMO. Joe and his father also come across as appalling people will barely a good word to say about anyone, maybe they need better PR people to "sell" Joe as his personality cannot sell itself. Anyone who saw him dying on his arse with his belt draped over his shoulder on the Johnny Vaughan show can attest to that. I hope to see Lacy win by KO as Joe can't offer anything for the future of this division.

I think the knock on Ottke is the manner of his victories. You always got the impression that all Sven had to do was finish on his feet to get the decision. I've not seen the Brewer fight, but Brewer always claimed he was robbed, but I've got lots of others, and there were certainly cases for him losing to other fighters on his list.

The scoring on the Reid fight was a flagrant fix. I don't care who hears it, but those guys were on the take from Sauerland. The first 6 rounds, Ottke did absolutely nothing and was ahead after 6 by two rounds somehow, despite landing about 5 shots over 5 rounds, and constantly holding and complaining to the ref about nothing.

Then the last 6 rounds, where Ottke definetly won at least 4 of the rounds as Reid tried to avoid getting DQ'd, they judges scored the majority to Reid, blatantly just to even up the scoring a bit so it didn't look suss.

I lost all respect for Ottke that night, as he clearly saw it as his right to retain his title without having to fight for it, and obviously knew that ref Tillerman had been paid off by the promoter too.

Ottke's reign was dull, and tainted by the fact that the judges turned up to do the 'right thing' by his promoters in many cases.

I agree that Joe hasn't exactly got the most engaging, warm and likeable of persona, I remember one fight where they showed him warming up before a fight and he did this terrible smarmy grinning routine which was really awful, he actually looked a bit embarrassed himself as well.

However, I don't care wheter Joe is a nice guy or not, Robert Duran was a complete asshole by all accounts, but he's still an all time great.

I just hope that the right man wins on the night.

boxingchat wrote:

knockout wrote:what you guys have to remember when comparing Calzaghe with
Eubank, Benn, Watson is that they came from the same day weigh in era and were MIDDLE weights..... 11stone 6... Calzaghe weighs in the day before and struggles to get to 12stone... the guys are two divisions apart.. Calzaghe would have been a career light heavy if he had to weigh in on the day...

Rubbish, they all weighed in the day before after 1991.

My point exactly, not sure what your point is...

Eubank V Benn 1990
Eubank V Watson 1989

So they were same day weigh ins......So as i said in my initial post... Eubank, Benn and Watson could all weigh in at middle ON THE DAY and fight at the highest level..... Calzaghe couldnt... So you arent comparing like for like

How did the Germans find Ottke to be a hero in Germany when they boo robberies like Valuev/Donald when Ottke was far worse?

Max Molyneux wrote:How did the Germans find Ottke to be a hero in Germany when they boo robberies like Valuev/Donald when Ottke was far worse?

Ottke is the only german born champion of the late 90's early 2000's so they loved him...
Valuev is Russian, Klits are Ukranian, Dariusz was born in Poland...
Ottke was German through and through hence was much more popular... he was also a gentleman and all round nice guy which helped.

As for the Ottke-legend builders, as far as I am concerned there were only three disputed fights in his career: Brewer I, Larsen, and Reid. Brewer I was rectified by Brewer II. Larsen and Reid were his last two fights (except his retirement fight against a hand-picked opponent). Ottke's legs had gone, hence he couldn't keep up his slick counterpunching style and ran into trouble against fighters who a couple of years earlier he would have handeld with ease. After this he took the consequences and called it quits. Still, Reid and Larsen didn't hit Ottke exactly from pillar to post - these were tactical, hard-to-score grudge matches that Larsen and Reid lost at least in part because of inactivity.

Still, Ottke's final year was ugly. Otherwise he was a good champ with many clear and worthy wins (Glencoffe, Mitchell, Brewer II, Tate twice, Butler, Mundine, Branco...). He was also a fine guy, humble and respectful, which is another point that distinguishes him positively from this compulsive bragger and ducker from Wales.

Ottke has my respect for sure.

P

Terence wrote:James I see some of your points but in regards to Joe I think he opened himself up for stick by pretty much saying: "I'm unbeaten, exciting and Champion so why does no one like me?" Duran was a nasty man, Toney is a pantomime villain but they don't expect respect they earned it. I don't think Joe has just yet. Lacy is young, inexperienced, over-hyped and the defining fight on the Calzaghe ledger.

As for Ottke I feel some sympathy for him. The Reid fight you yourself say he won four rounds and in a 12 round fight all you need is two more close ones to get a swing in the points that would bring a draw. I don't think there is corruption in judging just really useless judges so a promoter only has to make sure that they get the ones who don't know what they are doing or have a history of being influenced by hostile crowds. It would be interesting to see who officiated the controversial fights. He did partially unify controversy or not and beat both Brewer and Mitchell before Joe did so it is strange he was overlooked whilst VK was not.

Joe is looking pretty poor lately IMO, I've never been keen on his slapping style and lately he is very easy to hit. A slap-happy southpaw who rushes in hands down and chin-up? I think Lacy will spark him. Its a pity for Joe as a lot ofWelsh fans I knew who were do-or-die fans are now turning on him over the past year or so. Complete waste of a career by and large IMO.

there is corruption in judging, albeit not overt. It's well known that judges have their fees paid for by promoters. Judges who want to get the nice gigs, need to curry favour with promoters, as otherwise promoters kick up a stink about the appointment of officials.

I am not saying it is even neccesary conscious. Some judges are bound to be influenced toward the home fighter, when the promoter pays for their services and puts them up in a nice cushy hotel.

Brian Hughes told me that before the Reid fight, he saw all the IBf judges and officials sitting having dinner with Sauerland and Ottke in the hotel where they were all sitting. Thick as thieves is the phrase which springs to mind.

Judges have to go through a lot of vetting by the sanctioning body to get a world title fight usually, so the excuse that they are 'useless' doesn't really wash.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:


The scoring on the Reid fight was a flagrant fix. I don't care who hears it, but those guys were on the take from Sauerland. The first 6 rounds, Ottke did absolutely nothing and was ahead after 6 by two rounds somehow, despite landing about 5 shots over 5 rounds, and constantly holding and complaining to the ref about nothing.

Then the last 6 rounds, where Ottke definetly won at least 4 of the rounds as Reid tried to avoid getting DQ'd, they judges scored the majority to Reid, blatantly just to even up the scoring a bit so it didn't look suss.

I lost all respect for Ottke that night, as he clearly saw it as his right to retain his title without having to fight for it, and obviously knew that ref Tillerman had been paid off by the promoter too.

Excuse my ignorance, but who exactly pays referees and judges? It should be through an independent body and not directly from a promoter, and then this issue might become a thing of the past in boxing.

Imagine Man Utd vs Arsenal, with the referee being paid for by Alex Ferguson…

It’s not too dissimilar a scenario is it? Absolute madness really. There should be a central organisation which allocates referees to all world championship fights, e.g. determined on a rolling programme over a 5 year period. You then end up with whichever referee’s turn is next..?

An example of a refereeing performance I thought was a disgrace was during the Lacy vs Reid fight. The referee was seriously and overly harsh on Reid for any minor infringement. At one point I thought he was going to stop the fight and have a word with Reid for actually having the audacity to hit Lacy!

He didn’t want the Brit causing an upset in the Yank’s back yard. Simple as that. The Brit needed to know his place.

He helped Lacy up after a slip at one point, which I felt was odd – and moreover, after Lacy won the ref was in the Lacy corner looking absolutely delighted!!! Grinning like a Cheshire cat. I can’t remember the last time I saw e.g. an FA referee so publicly delighted having overseen one team beat another. As it transpires, Lacy won the fight fairly enough, but the ref blatantly was NOT “neutral”.

Its an important issue, and one that adds to boxing not being accepted by more of the mainstream public. Who wants to tune in and watch a pre-arranged farce. We have WWE for that…

Loftgroov wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:


The scoring on the Reid fight was a flagrant fix. I don't care who hears it, but those guys were on the take from Sauerland. The first 6 rounds, Ottke did absolutely nothing and was ahead after 6 by two rounds somehow, despite landing about 5 shots over 5 rounds, and constantly holding and complaining to the ref about nothing.

Then the last 6 rounds, where Ottke definetly won at least 4 of the rounds as Reid tried to avoid getting DQ'd, they judges scored the majority to Reid, blatantly just to even up the scoring a bit so it didn't look suss.

I lost all respect for Ottke that night, as he clearly saw it as his right to retain his title without having to fight for it, and obviously knew that ref Tillerman had been paid off by the promoter too.

Excuse my ignorance, but who exactly pays referees and judges? It should be through an independent body and not directly from a promoter, and then this issue might become a thing of the past in boxing.

Imagine Man Utd vs Arsenal, with the referee being paid for by Alex Ferguson…

It’s not too dissimilar a scenario is it? Absolute madness really. There should be a central organisation which allocates referees to all world championship fights, e.g. determined on a rolling programme over a 5 year period. You then end up with whichever referee’s turn is next..?

An example of a refereeing performance I thought was a disgrace was during the Lacy vs Reid fight. The referee was seriously and overly harsh on Reid for any minor infringement. At one point I thought he was going to stop the fight and have a word with Reid for actually having the audacity to hit Lacy!

He didn’t want the Brit causing an upset in the Yank’s back yard. Simple as that. The Brit needed to know his place.

He helped Lacy up after a slip at one point, which I felt was odd – and moreover, after Lacy won the ref was in the Lacy corner looking absolutely delighted!!! Grinning like a Cheshire cat. I can’t remember the last time I saw e.g. an FA referee so publicly delighted having overseen one team beat another. As it transpires, Lacy won the fight fairly enough, but the ref blatantly was NOT “neutral”.

Its an important issue, and one that adds to boxing not being accepted by more of the mainstream public. Who wants to tune in and watch a pre-arranged farce. We have WWE for that…

that's my point exactly...

In what other sport does a promoter run ANYTHING? Boxing is the only sport run by promoters. To have the officials paid and not only that, looked after by promoters is ridiculous. They pay flights and accomodation costs as well as fees is I remember rightly, and usually make the arrangements for where they stay. This is patently ridiculous.

As you say, if it happened in football, there'd be fornicating ructions.

Just to make a thing clear. Its the sanction body that pays the officials. Ie in Kessler vs Lucas: Kessler got $80K, Lucas $75K (+ canadian TV rights) and WBA $21K. Then WBA pays for the belts, travel, hotel ect.

That runs contrary to what I have been told. I am pretty sure that in the USA and UK that is not the case.

Freiheit wrote:Just to make a thing clear. Its the sanction body that pays the officials. Ie in Kessler vs Lucas: Kessler got $80K, Lucas $75K (+ canadian TV rights) and WBA $21K. Then WBA pays for the belts, travel, hotel ect.

It appears to vary by jurisdiction Freiheit. I am pretty sure that the BBBofC collect the officials fees from the promoter.

For instance, according to the New Mexico boxing commisions regulations.

Payment of Officials.
"The commision shall collect from the promoter official's fees."

I probably didnt make myself clear enough. Of course the promotor pays for everything, but not directly. They first then pay the sanctionbody/commission and then the sanctionbody/commission pays for all those kind of things. Judges/referess does not get their paycheck directly from the promotor.

Yes, however, it amounts to the same thing.

Referees and other officials get paid well for world title fights, and a promoter who has several world champions is therefore going to exert an unseen influence over judges, just in the way that a huge planet will drag asteroids which otherwise circle the earth millions of miles away out of orbit.

It doesn't take bribery or overt corruption for bad judging to happen.

knockout wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:How did the Germans find Ottke to be a hero in Germany when they boo robberies like Valuev/Donald when Ottke was far worse?

Ottke is the only german born champion of the late 90's early 2000's so they loved him...
Valuev is Russian, Klits are Ukranian, Dariusz was born in Poland...
Ottke was German through and through hence was much more popular... he was also a gentleman and all round nice guy which helped.

Nice to see how they can contradict themselves then!

The seemingly indestructible Hove boxer's days of fighting the scales are over as he makes a jump of two divisions to face fellow Brit Carl Thompson for the WBO cruiserweight crown in Manchester on April 18. Dangerous dieting tactics are out of the window and Eubank can now eat to his heart's content. His walkaround weight of 13st 4lb is four pounds BELOW the cruiserweight limit. "I've been reckless throughout my career," he admitted. "I've always had to lose weight since I began boxing in February 1983. "For my last fight against Joe Calzaghe getting off 20 pounds in seven days wasn't easy. I was dieting and just eating vegetables all day."

link: http://archive.theargus.co.uk/1998/2/24/200552.html