BoxRec

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:As far as Hagler vs Eubank, if we're talking about the Hagler of 84-87 then Eubank surely out-points him.

But the counter-puncher, power-hitter version of Hagler of 1977-78 was the best 160lber ever and definately beats Eubank.

ya 1977-82 hagler


however i think the 84-87 version still outpoints eubank

I don't know about that, rugged slugger John Mugabi was out-boxing Hagler.

No he wasn't.

Mugabi got a career ending beating in that fight and won at most two rounds.

The Great John L wrote:

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Hagler's competition seems less impressive than that faced by Eubank. Hagler might have been better but IMO he did not prove this against superior opponnents.

Are you serious?

He can't be serious unless he is just some bloke who has never even taken the first step and looked at their respective records.

Greg Nicholas wrote:Benn was one of the most naturally talented fighters in the history of the sport, Marvin Hagler said in 1988 that Benn was the next great middleweight.

Collins would have stood no chance against Benn if he fought him pre-McClellan. Benn would of easily out-boxed him with his far superior skills. Under Jimmy Tibbs, Benn was awesome - he paced himself well and was very difficult to catch clean due to his constant head movement, and placed shots to the vital points (liver, chin, temple, solar plexus, under the floating rib). Whoever said that Benn was one-dimensional either has a very short memory, is blind, dumb, or just hasn't seen much of Benn.. because under Tibbs he certainly wasn't one-dimensional!

Benn's world title win against Doug DeWitt (Hagler's sparring partner) in America is probably one of the most horrific one-sided beatdowns I've seen, and Benn knocked out Robbie Sims (Hagler's half-brother) for the first time in his career. He was a great middleweight. But he reached his peak at 168. The Benn under Tibbs was a really good all-rounder, and the Benn that fought McClellan was out of this world. It's just a shame that the McClellan fight took everything out of Benn, because he looked worse than ever in his next two fights.

Beating DeWitt and Sims doesn't make you a great middleweight. That's a strange statement, to say the least.

"He paced himself well" --- You've not seen the Watson fight?

"He was very difficult to catch clean" --- Watson, Logan, Eubank (1st fight) and McClellan seemed to be able to catch him cleanly.

"Benn was one of the most naturally talented fighters in the history of the sport..." - Watson made him look like a novice.

You're having a laugh, right?

I simply don't find Hagler's competition particularly impressive when compared with some other champions.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I simply don't find Hagler's competition particularly impressive when compared with some other champions.

I would say that compared to the level of Ray Robinson's or Mohammed Ali's competition, Hagler's wasn't that great, but compared to Eubanks, it's damn impressive!!

Collins2000 wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:Benn was one of the most naturally talented fighters in the history of the sport, Marvin Hagler said in 1988 that Benn was the next great middleweight.

Collins would have stood no chance against Benn if he fought him pre-McClellan. Benn would of easily out-boxed him with his far superior skills. Under Jimmy Tibbs, Benn was awesome - he paced himself well and was very difficult to catch clean due to his constant head movement, and placed shots to the vital points (liver, chin, temple, solar plexus, under the floating rib). Whoever said that Benn was one-dimensional either has a very short memory, is blind, dumb, or just hasn't seen much of Benn.. because under Tibbs he certainly wasn't one-dimensional!

Benn's world title win against Doug DeWitt (Hagler's sparring partner) in America is probably one of the most horrific one-sided beatdowns I've seen, and Benn knocked out Robbie Sims (Hagler's half-brother) for the first time in his career. He was a great middleweight. But he reached his peak at 168. The Benn under Tibbs was a really good all-rounder, and the Benn that fought McClellan was out of this world. It's just a shame that the McClellan fight took everything out of Benn, because he looked worse than ever in his next two fights.

"He paced himself well" --- You've not seen the Watson fight?

"He was very difficult to catch clean" --- Watson, Logan, Eubank (1st fight) and McClellan seemed to be able to catch him cleanly.

UNDER JIMMY TIBBS, UNDER JIMMY TIBBS, UNDER JIMMY TIBBS.

Are you Blind or are you doing this purposely? Did you seriously accidently miss the part where I clearly stated UNDER JIMMY TIBBS. Damn man.

Collins2000 wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:Benn was one of the most naturally talented fighters in the history of the sport, Marvin Hagler said in 1988 that Benn was the next great middleweight.

Collins would have stood no chance against Benn if he fought him pre-McClellan. Benn would of easily out-boxed him with his far superior skills. Under Jimmy Tibbs, Benn was awesome - he paced himself well and was very difficult to catch clean due to his constant head movement, and placed shots to the vital points (liver, chin, temple, solar plexus, under the floating rib). Whoever said that Benn was one-dimensional either has a very short memory, is blind, dumb, or just hasn't seen much of Benn.. because under Tibbs he certainly wasn't one-dimensional!

Benn's world title win against Doug DeWitt (Hagler's sparring partner) in America is probably one of the most horrific one-sided beatdowns I've seen, and Benn knocked out Robbie Sims (Hagler's half-brother) for the first time in his career. He was a great middleweight. But he reached his peak at 168. The Benn under Tibbs was a really good all-rounder, and the Benn that fought McClellan was out of this world. It's just a shame that the McClellan fight took everything out of Benn, because he looked worse than ever in his next two fights.

Beating DeWitt and Sims doesn't make you a great middleweight. That's a strange statement, to say the least.

Nobody said it does. But Benn was a great middleweight.

The Great John L wrote:

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I simply don't find Hagler's competition particularly impressive when compared with some other champions.

I would say that compared to the level of Ray Robinson's or Mohammed Ali's competition, Hagler's wasn't that great, but compared to Eubanks, it's damn impressive!!

Hugo Corti had knocked out former WBC/WBA middleweight king Hugo Corro. Eubank beat Benn and, to be honest, Minter or Sibson wouldn't of stood much chance against Benn or Eubank. Eubank also looked atleast as good as McCallum did against Watson at middleweight, that's before Eubank just got lazy and let Watson back in. Rocchigiani was a very good figher, but Eubank shut him out despite a hostile Berlin crowd.

BENN WAS A AWESOME FIGHTER, I LOVE WATCHIN THE 'DARK DESTROYER' VIDEO THAT HAD HIS FIRST 20 KOS (IN HIS FIRST 20 FIGHTS!!!) BENN LOOKED AWESOME AT THE START OF HIS CAREER. BUT I JUST FEEL AT 160 NIGEL WAS A BIT TO RECKLESS FOR TOMMY HEARNS AND TOMMY HEARNS ABIT TO EXPERIENCED, TOMMY FAR TOO RANGY AND WOULD PROBBLY STAY BACK FOR 12 ROUNDS AND JAB BENNS HEAD OFF. HEARNS WUDNT BE STUPID ENOUGH TO GO IN AND TRADE WITH BENN, HE WUD OUTBOX HIM

Greg Nicholas wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I simply don't find Hagler's competition particularly impressive when compared with some other champions.

I would say that compared to the level of Ray Robinson's or Mohammed Ali's competition, Hagler's wasn't that great, but compared to Eubanks, it's damn impressive!!

Hugo Corti had knocked out former WBC/WBA middleweight king Hugo Corro. Eubank beat Benn and, to be honest, Minter or Sibson wouldn't of stood much chance against Benn or Eubank. Eubank also looked atleast as good as McCallum did against Watson at middleweight, that's before Eubank just got lazy and let Watson back in. Rocchigiani was a very good figher, but Eubank shut him out despite a hostile Berlin crowd.

I'm not completely sure what you're trying to say here, but it might be some defense of Eubank's competition, which is the only issue I was attempting to address. If that's so, just consider that Hagler probably beat more true world class fighters before he won the title than Eubank did in his entire career. Then he beat pretty much all the best MW's during his title reign

Prior to winning title

Seales
Watts
Monroe
Briscoe
Hart
Colbert
Finnegan
These are only the well known world class fighters.

After winning title

Antuofermo
Minter
Obelmejias
Hamsho
Sibson
Scypion
Roldan
Hearns
Mugabi

AS FOR EUBANKS, I THOUGHT EUBANKS COULD BEAT ANYBODY IF HE WAS MOTIVATED!

ONE OF THE BIGGEST WASTE OF TALENTS IVE SEEN, WHAT A WASTE

I USED TO WATCH EUBANKS ON ESPN, SOME TIMES HE WAS THE MOST ANNOYING AND RIDICULOUS BOXER WITH ALL HIS POSING AND PUROSELY NOT PUTTING THE WORK IN. BUT AT OTHER TIMES HE WAS LIKE THE MOST SKILLED FIGHTER IVE EVER SEEN IN A BOXING RING,

EUBANKS WAS BAD FOR THE SPORT IMO BECOS HE COULD OF DONE SO MUCH MORE WITH HIMSELF, HE MADE BRIT BOXING A CIRCUS SHOW AND US AMERICANS NEVER REALY TOOK TO HIM WITH HIS POSING AND SHIT LIKE THAT. PLUS HE NEVER CAME OVER HERE TO FIGHT.

HULANA121 wrote:AS FOR EUBANKS, I THOUGHT EUBANKS COULD BEAT ANYBODY IF HE WAS MOTIVATED!

ONE OF THE BIGGEST WASTE OF TALENTS IVE SEEN, WHAT A WASTE

You'd have though he would have been motivated for the rematch with Benn. It was a huge fight as there was a lot at stake and genuine bad blood between the fighters. Biggest crowd in Britain for years. 40,000+ as I recall. As he didn't win and the draw he got is even considered to have been a bad call and that Benn deserved the nod, you saying he wasn't motivated?

I DONT THINK HE WAS EVER MOTIVATED AFTER WHAT HAPPENED TO MICHAEL THOMSON. JOHN JARVIS FIGHT HE WAS MOTIVATED BUT I DONT THINK ANY OTHER FIGHTS FOR THE REST OF HIS CAREER WAS HIS MIND RIGHT.

Greg Nicholas wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:Benn was one of the most naturally talented fighters in the history of the sport, Marvin Hagler said in 1988 that Benn was the next great middleweight.

Collins would have stood no chance against Benn if he fought him pre-McClellan. Benn would of easily out-boxed him with his far superior skills. Under Jimmy Tibbs, Benn was awesome - he paced himself well and was very difficult to catch clean due to his constant head movement, and placed shots to the vital points (liver, chin, temple, solar plexus, under the floating rib). Whoever said that Benn was one-dimensional either has a very short memory, is blind, dumb, or just hasn't seen much of Benn.. because under Tibbs he certainly wasn't one-dimensional!

Benn's world title win against Doug DeWitt (Hagler's sparring partner) in America is probably one of the most horrific one-sided beatdowns I've seen, and Benn knocked out Robbie Sims (Hagler's half-brother) for the first time in his career. He was a great middleweight. But he reached his peak at 168. The Benn under Tibbs was a really good all-rounder, and the Benn that fought McClellan was out of this world. It's just a shame that the McClellan fight took everything out of Benn, because he looked worse than ever in his next two fights.

Beating DeWitt and Sims doesn't make you a great middleweight. That's a strange statement, to say the least.

Nobody said it does. But Benn was a great middleweight.

So why string the statements together as such if there is no relationship between them?

"Benn's world title win against Doug DeWitt (Hagler's sparring partner) in America is probably one of the most horrific one-sided beatdowns I've seen, and Benn knocked out Robbie Sims (Hagler's half-brother) for the first time in his career. He was a great middleweight."

HULANA121 wrote:I DONT THINK HE WAS EVER MOTIVATED AFTER WHAT HAPPENED TO MICHAEL THOMSON. JOHN JARVIS FIGHT HE WAS MOTIVATED BUT I DONT THINK ANY OTHER FIGHTS FOR THE REST OF HIS CAREER WAS HIS MIND RIGHT.

Michael Thompson? The rugby league player? What was the relationship between him and Eubank?

Jarvis was about 40 years old wasn't he? And he looked and fought like he was 50. That's one fight I'd have thought Eubank could have won complety UNmotivated.

Greg Nicholas wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:Benn was one of the most naturally talented fighters in the history of the sport, Marvin Hagler said in 1988 that Benn was the next great middleweight.

Collins would have stood no chance against Benn if he fought him pre-McClellan. Benn would of easily out-boxed him with his far superior skills. Under Jimmy Tibbs, Benn was awesome - he paced himself well and was very difficult to catch clean due to his constant head movement, and placed shots to the vital points (liver, chin, temple, solar plexus, under the floating rib). Whoever said that Benn was one-dimensional either has a very short memory, is blind, dumb, or just hasn't seen much of Benn.. because under Tibbs he certainly wasn't one-dimensional!

Benn's world title win against Doug DeWitt (Hagler's sparring partner) in America is probably one of the most horrific one-sided beatdowns I've seen, and Benn knocked out Robbie Sims (Hagler's half-brother) for the first time in his career. He was a great middleweight. But he reached his peak at 168. The Benn under Tibbs was a really good all-rounder, and the Benn that fought McClellan was out of this world. It's just a shame that the McClellan fight took everything out of Benn, because he looked worse than ever in his next two fights.

"He paced himself well" --- You've not seen the Watson fight?

"He was very difficult to catch clean" --- Watson, Logan, Eubank (1st fight) and McClellan seemed to be able to catch him cleanly.

UNDER JIMMY TIBBS, UNDER JIMMY TIBBS, UNDER JIMMY TIBBS.

Are you Blind or are you doing this purposely? Did you seriously accidently miss the part where I clearly stated UNDER JIMMY TIBBS. Damn man.

So NONE of the fights I mentioned took place while he was trained by Tibbs?

Remind me which fights DID he have under Jimmy Tibbs.

Hagler versus Eubank would be a good fight. But Eubank would be out of his depth. He was a good counter puncher - granite chin, a solid punch. But he'd be in there with the well-oiled machine that was Marvelous Marvin Hagler, who would bring a certain intensity to the ring and fought with a deadly versatility.

Hagler was "a controlled menace."

If you watch Eubank fight... You'll see he follows a pattern. He fights a bit, then takes a break, then plays to the crowd. Jab... Jab... Cross... Roll shoulders a bit... Smile... Cross... Couple of body shots... Walk around a bit... Jab... Do a bit more smiling...

Then watch Hagler - he worked three minutes a round, and threw every punch in the book. He balanced offense with defense, ducked punches, slipped punches, hooked off the jab, doubled up with the straights, jabbed and moved, threw combinations, alternated between body and head - Hagler could counter punch a guy into Oblivion, or swarm all over him and break his bones - it depended on the situation. Hagler was a workman - well schooled in the art of boxing, and hard working. If anyone wishes to question me on anything I've said on Hagler's abilities, I'll show you the film to back it up.

And if anyone wants to know what Hagler's opposition was like, check this out. Here are the tough fighters/prospects he faced:

Doug Demmings
Norberto Cabrera
Sugar Ray Seales
Johnny Baldwin

But wait - there's more. Here are the top ten world ranked contenders Hagler beat:

Bennie Briscoe
Eugene Hart
Kevin Finnegan
Mike Colbert
Willie Monroe
Bobby Watts
Loucif Hamani
Marus Geraldo
William Lee
Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns

Hang on - that's not it. Here are the number one contenders/champions Hagler beat:

Vito Antuofermo
Alan Minter
Mustafa Hamsho
Fulgencio Obelmejias
Wilford Scypion
Tony Sibson
Juan Roldan
John Mugabi

--

Nobody ever question Hagler, or I'll kick your ass with facts and figures which will have you knocked into next week.

Collins2000 wrote:

HULANA121 wrote:AS FOR EUBANKS, I THOUGHT EUBANKS COULD BEAT ANYBODY IF HE WAS MOTIVATED!

ONE OF THE BIGGEST WASTE OF TALENTS IVE SEEN, WHAT A WASTE

You'd have though he would have been motivated for the rematch with Benn. It was a huge fight as there was a lot at stake and genuine bad blood between the fighters. Biggest crowd in Britain for years. 40,000+ as I recall. As he didn't win and the draw he got is even considered to have been a bad call and that Benn deserved the nod, you saying he wasn't motivated?

Eubank was an idiot, Ronnie Davies says he was weighing 160 in the first Benn fight but weighing 185 in the second Benn fight! Ronnie says Chris' tactics in the second fight were to try and out-box Benn for six rounds then just power him out of there. But, all the top fighters are on the weight two or three weeks before fighting. But no, not Eubank. All this having an advantage by coming in a stone above what you were at the weigh-in is crap. Eubank was holding water; his muscles weren't absorbing all the fluids or nutrients he needed and he would become dehydrated after about six rounds - that's what happened in the Benn second fight and most of his other fights after.

Eubank was a light-heavyweight fighting at super-middleweight and cruiserweight. Not the brightest biscuit in the barrel, he'd of been much more successful as a light-heavyweight. It's not like he didn't have offers - Jeff Harding, Mike McCallum and Virgil Hill were BEGGING Eubank to fight them because they wanted to come over to England and have a big payday. Henry Maske was begging Eubank to come over to Germany and fight him in 95/96 because Eubank was well-known in Germany, but Eubank said he wouldn't fight over there again because of all the racial chanting the last time he was over there (against Rocchigiani). Instead of retiring after the Thompson wars due to eye problems, Eubank definately could of won a world title again at light-heavyweight (against Michalczewski or Reggie Johnson).

Collins2000 wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:

Collins2000 wrote: "He paced himself well" --- You've not seen the Watson fight?

"He was very difficult to catch clean" --- Watson, Logan, Eubank (1st fight) and McClellan seemed to be able to catch him cleanly.

UNDER JIMMY TIBBS, UNDER JIMMY TIBBS, UNDER JIMMY TIBBS.

Are you Blind or are you doing this purposely? Did you seriously accidently miss the part where I clearly stated UNDER JIMMY TIBBS. Damn man.

So NONE of the fights I mentioned took place while he was trained by Tibbs?

Remind me which fights DID he have under Jimmy Tibbs.

Tibbs trained Benn from Giminez 92 through to Galvano 94, Benn showed very impressive boxing skills under Tibbsy.

Benn wanted to come out of retirement in 1998 and fight Joe Calzaghe, and wanted Tibbs to train him again, Tibbs thought Benn could beat him.

How do people feel Eubank does against the guys Hagler's fought?

Cojimar 1945 wrote:How do people feel Eubank does against the guys Hagler's fought?

Duran and Hearns run him close. Infact I would pick Hearns to beat him. Antuofermo, Roldan and Hamsho would be major tests for Eubank... As stated before, Chris liked to take a break or two. Those guys didn't stop, and just kept bulling their opponent about. Underrated fighters. Don't be surprised if at least one of them will outpoint Eubank (I'm speaking as though the fights are actually going to happen ).

Chris Eubank was a very good fighter before the second Michael Watson fight, after the tragic ending of this fight he was never the same again, he became very hesitant and lost some of his fire. Benn, Watson and Eubank were all excellent MW fighters in the late 80s / early 90s, three of the best Britain has ever produced.
I dont know why people are comparing Eubank or his record to that of Marvin Hagler though, absurd! Chris might have done the 12 rounds against Marvin, he was hard as hell.
Of the 3, Michael Watson was the most accomplished technically, the Mike McCallum fight came too soon in his career.
Nigel Benn did however accomplish more than either Watson or Eubank despite losing against both. His power and sheer will to win would make him a danger to almost anyone in his peak, barring greats like Hagler.

ringsider wrote:

PLUS HE NEVER CAME OVER HERE TO FIGHT.

Because had he come over here to fight he would have gotten an ass beating, and he knew it...... there were no hometown stiffs to fight........

IM NO FAN OF EUBANKS BUT DOES IT REALY MATTER WHERE THE FIGHT TAKES PLACE ?? EUBANKS FOUGHT NUMBER ONE CONTENDERS FOR THE MONEY BECOS HE WAS ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY, AND MOST OF THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDERS HE WAS FIGHTIN WERE AMERICAN ANY WAY. EUBANKS WAS THE CHAMPION, SO HE GOT TO FIGHT WHERE HE CHOSE AND I GUESS HE WAS JUST MAKING MORE MONEY IN UK THAN IF HE CAME OVER HERE. ALL THE UK CROWDS USED TO BOO HIM EVERY TIME I REMEMBER, IF HE CAME OVER HERE TO FIGHT HE WOULDNT OF HAD HALF AS MANY BOOS AS WHAT HE GOT IN THE UK ( BUT HE SEEMED TO LOVE THE BOOS ) I THINK EUBANKS MARKETIN TACTIC WAS MAKE URSELF HATED THEN THE FANS WILL BUY TICKETS AT HIGHER PRICE AND MAKE U RICH AND, AT END OF THE DAY DIDNT EUBANKS WALK AWAY FROM BOXING WITH 30 MILLION DOLLARS ? I SAY FAIR PLAY TO THE GUY