BoxRec

Cap wrote:Dempsey did fight John Lester Johnson, a black light heavyweight, but apparently didn't come away without a few bruises.

Dempsey later used Johnson as a sparring partner through much of his championship career.

HomicideHenry wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Dempsey was a monster but.................can someone tell me how many negro's he fight

I don't really buy into the "black is better" argument, for one main reason: all the black guys just fought the same guys over and over again, same styles and predictability. The white guys occasionally mixed up with blacks, and foreign fighters on a more frequent basis.

When Dempsey was known as Kid Blackie he fought black men from time to time, though that part of his life is rather opaque. He always had black guys as sparring partners. So one can't use the excuse that he wasn't good because there wasn't this long list of blacks on his record.

Just was wondering but aye if your told to dodge a CERTAIN RACE OF PEOPLE THEN HOW DON'T YOU BUY INTO IT DOES ONE JUST IGNORE IT

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Dempsey was a monster but.................can someone tell me how many negro's he fight

I don't really buy into the "black is better" argument, for one main reason: all the black guys just fought the same guys over and over again, same styles and predictability. The white guys occasionally mixed up with blacks, and foreign fighters on a more frequent basis.

When Dempsey was known as Kid Blackie he fought black men from time to time, though that part of his life is rather opaque. He always had black guys as sparring partners. So one can't use the excuse that he wasn't good because there wasn't this long list of blacks on his record.

Just was wondering but aye if your told to dodge a CERTAIN RACE OF PEOPLE THEN HOW DON'T YOU BUY INTO IT DOES ONE JUST IGNORE IT

The logic THEN was they were beneath qualifications to fight for the biggest prize in boxing. The superiority argument that blacks were automatically better than whites started popping up in the civil rights era, especially after the Broadway play The Great White Hope premiered.

My argument is that neither mindset is correct. But I would argue that fighting the same guys over and over from start to finish in your career isn't going to really improve much of anything. Which is what most blacks did. It wouldn't be until the 1910's and onwards that you'd see black heavyweights fighting a more diverse group of people: whites, foreigners (Europeans), Hispanics, etc. and so they began confronting different styles, techniques, etc.

The lighter weight blacks were far luckier, being allowed to go after world championships alot sooner and getting far more opportunities than the heavyweight blacks... If you really think about it, Jack Johnson himself wouldn't get a great education in boxing until he lost to the likes of Joe Choynski and Marvin Hart... And from that point on he became unstoppable. Before that, he wasn't much different than Sam McVey and others.

Maybe a key piece of evidence to support my argument is that Sam Langford, who was the greatest boxer of all time in my eyes, couldn't really do much with Fred Fulton... But Jack Dempsey blew Fulton away in fifteen seconds... Maybe it's because Langford was so short, but he defeated tall men before... But I think part of it was because Langford was mostly relegated to fighting other black guys who weren't altogether as skilled as many whites were.

What happened to Dempsey when he was champion is he could make as much money out of the ring as inside it... He sometimes went 2 or 3 years between title defenses, just touring and doing personal appearances.. You do lose your skills when you do that.. But Dempsey had so much raw talent that people knew he would be Heavyweight Champion years before he got his title shot at Willard, who also spent very little time defending the Heavyweight Title in the previous 4 years. That was because of the lack of tough commissions and regulations in those days where you could elect to sit on a title for years.

When Dempsey was active he knocked out big southpaw Fred Fulton in less than 20 seconds, though Fulton had Dempsey by 20 pounds.. Fulton won his next 20 fights in a row versus some pretty good Heavyweights but lost his next one to Harry Wills in 3 rounds.. However Fulton insisted that he had Wills going just before he got hurt, and that Dempsey would make short work of Wills.. I tend to agree, because a young Paulino Uzcudun made short work of Wills. Wills was also knocked out by the much smaller Langford twice -- and by Kid Cotton, a guy who lost more fights by KO than he won by any means.

According to Jack Johnson, Wills was less than an assertive individual and that's why he didn't get a title shot. Johnson, who sparred many rounds with Wills also said there were many Heavyweights better than Wills, and he didn't deserve a title shot. Contrast that to what people said about Dempsey. When they watched the young Dempsey they said he should be fighting for the title, and that he would win it.

HomicideHenry wrote:Jack Johnson himself wouldn't get a great education in boxing until he lost to the likes of Joe Choynski and Marvin Hart

Choynski didn't really beat Johnson.. The fight was stopped early by police. When the cops ordered the fight stopped Johnson turned towards them and was hit by Choynski.. They both spent 3 weeks in jail for violating anti-boxing laws.. Marvin Hart was awarded the fight by a biased referee - though Johnson boxed and beat the crap out of Hart.. Johnson said the toughest fighter for his defensive counter-punching style proved to be Hank Griffin -- who he said he learned more from than anyone else, and "The greatest punishment I ever received in the ring, came at the hands of Griffin." ... Odd, because Griffin wasn't great.

Kalan wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Jack Johnson himself wouldn't get a great education in boxing until he lost to the likes of Joe Choynski and Marvin Hart

Choynski didn't really beat Johnson.. The fight was stopped early by police. When the cops ordered the fight stopped Johnson turned towards them and was hit by Choynski.. They both spent 3 weeks in jail for violating anti-boxing laws.. Marvin Hart was awarded the fight by a biased referee - though Johnson boxed and beat the crap out of Hart.. Johnson said the toughest fighter for his defensive counter-punching style proved to be Hank Griffin -- who he said he learned more from than anyone else, and "The greatest punishment I ever received in the ring, came at the hands of Griffin." ... Odd, because Griffin wasn't great.

At the time of their match Johnson only had a record of 5-1-2 with 2 no contests. Choynski had a record of 52-11-6. I have a hard time imagining your version of events, considering... The truth is Choynski knocked out Johnson, the two men were arrested, only to spar later on inside the jail yard and Choynski told Johnson that he had the size and the speed to make it far and told him every technique in the book... Even BoxRec accepts these version of events as stated to be true. A young man with talent, beaten by a crafty veteran by a punch he didn't see coming who learned from the experience wholeheartedly.

As for being robbed, as you claim, by Marvin Hart... The truth is this: the Washington Post and others by and large felt that Hart was the only one really making a fight out of the contest, while Johnson seemed content with just countering and none of his punches had much sting behind them. Sure Hart got busted up by uppercuts, but Johnson was hurt in the eleventh round which indicates that Hart was the only one forcing the issue. So it wasn't just the referee, the press more or less agreed with the decision especially when you consider Johnson came in as a heavy favorite so Hart defied expectations.

As for Johnson's opinion, or view of events, he's not really the most reliable source. He once said he fought and killed a shark. He also said that in his view Jack Dempsey wasn't a real good puncher, and he said Joe Louis wasn't anything special. He often made up stories, especially at the end of his life for money at nickel and dime shows at Coney Island and other locations. It makes more sense to say something outlandish about Hank Griffin because nobody would expect that, and it most likely never happened. After all, this is a man who made people believe he took a dive to get amnesty.

However, I must admit, it could possibly be true because Johnson only had 13 bouts when he first met Griffin, and after all their matches together Johnson was 0-1-2 against him. The same Hank Griffin who was defeated by the pro debuting Jim Jeffries, and again later on to a no contest. So it makes you see how much of a disparity there was between Johnson and Jeffries in their primes.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Kalan wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Jack Johnson himself wouldn't get a great education in boxing until he lost to the likes of Joe Choynski and Marvin Hart

Choynski didn't really beat Johnson.. The fight was stopped early by police. When the cops ordered the fight stopped Johnson turned towards them and was hit by Choynski.. They both spent 3 weeks in jail for violating anti-boxing laws.. Marvin Hart was awarded the fight by a biased referee - though Johnson boxed and beat the crap out of Hart.. Johnson said the toughest fighter for his defensive counter-punching style proved to be Hank Griffin -- who he said he learned more from than anyone else, and "The greatest punishment I ever received in the ring, came at the hands of Griffin." ... Odd, because Griffin wasn't great.

At the time of their match Johnson only had a record of 5-1-2 with 2 no contests. Choynski had a record of 52-11-6. I have a hard time imagining your version of events, considering... The truth is Choynski knocked out Johnson, the two men were arrested, only to spar later on inside the jail yard and Choynski told Johnson that he had the size and the speed to make it far and told him every technique in the book... Even BoxRec accepts these version of events as stated to be true. A young man with talent, beaten by a crafty veteran by a punch he didn't see coming who learned from the experience wholeheartedly.

As for being robbed, as you claim, by Marvin Hart... The truth is this: the Washington Post and others by and large felt that Hart was the only one really making a fight out of the contest, while Johnson seemed content with just countering and none of his punches had much sting behind them. Sure Hart got busted up by uppercuts, but Johnson was hurt in the eleventh round which indicates that Hart was the only one forcing the issue. So it wasn't just the referee, the press more or less agreed with the decision especially when you consider Johnson came in as a heavy favorite so Hart defied expectations.

As for Johnson's opinion, or view of events, he's not really the most reliable source. He once said he fought and killed a shark. He also said that in his view Jack Dempsey wasn't a real good puncher, and he said Joe Louis wasn't anything special. He often made up stories, especially at the end of his life for money at nickel and dime shows at Coney Island and other locations. It makes more sense to say something outlandish about Hank Griffin because nobody would expect that, and it most likely never happened. After all, this is a man who made people believe he took a dive to get amnesty.

However, I must admit, it could possibly be true because Johnson only had 13 bouts when he first met Griffin, and after all their matches together Johnson was 0-1-2 against him. The same Hank Griffin who was defeated by the pro debuting Jim Jeffries, and again later on to a no contest. So it makes you see how much of a disparity there was between Johnson and Jeffries in their primes.

Johnson had nothing but praise for Jack Dempsey in his autobiography.. He called him a masterful fighter.. He said Tunney was faster and a much more clever boxer but said, "Tunney still lacks the power that lies in Dempsey's glove" ... Also Johnson didn't throw the Willard fight for amnesty.. He had the Title for 7 years - and in a world of hate and racial prejudice the Heavyweight Championship had earned him nothing but pain, death threats, and the status of a fugitive from justice.. He could take it no more.. He cut a deal for himself in regard to his prison sentence and his duties at the prison.. He was allowed to have professional fights in prison.. He was given the job of "Athletic Director" in the prison..

His wife and his lawyers were able to pour over the legal documents once the fight started, because it was scheduled for 45 rounds.. When they found everything in order his wife returned to her box seat and signaled that he had the documents in her possession.. We know from newspaper accounts that Johnson sent word to his wife to leave the arena after the 25th round, because he was ending things..The newspaper accounts of the fight said "almost certainly no KO punch landed" ... When Johnson went down he did so gently ... and his head did NOT bounce on the canvas.. As he was counted out he held his right forearm over his eyes to shade them from the sun...

Newspaper accounts also had Johnson dominating the first 20 rounds out-punching Willard 10 to 1.. They said Willard looked amateurish and in distress.. After the 20th the fight slowed to a snail's pace as the boxers did virtually nothing.. There were calls of "do something" and "FAKE" as Johnson kept looking to his wife's box to see if she came back.. When she returned and signaled him, he sent word to her to leave the arena and he was going to end things.. This is all in the newspaper accounts.. In the 26th round Johnson grabbed Willard in a powerful clinch and maneuvered him around looking for his wife's box to make sure she left the arena.. That is in the newspaper accounts... When he sees she's gone he immediately goes backwards toward the ropes and fakes the KO punch.. There is no motion-picture film, or still shot of any so-called KO punch landing -- actually making contact.

https://youtu.be/vtyMYNxAq2M

What you described never happened. Willard feints and lands a crushing right hand on Johnson, and is knocked out cold never moving a muscle. The fight film wasn't seen for decades, and only the famous picture of Johnson shielding his eyes was seen and Johnson used it as evidence he faked it. The fi tells otherwise.

"The Great White Hope" with James Earl Jones and idiots like Ken Burns retelling fairy tales have badly destroyed history and robbed Willard of a tremendous victory over a man who was champion for seven years. Look at Johnson's record after Willard friend, 15-5-0 (9). He was getting old. He was getting slower. The majority of those 15 wins after Willard were against debuters and novices. Pure and simple, he was ripe for the picking. A 6'6" 245 pound giant with a cast iron jaw and youth and his side, was bound to beat Johnson.

As for Johnson "praising" Dempsey... Maybe when he was an old man and had nothing left... But for a time, believe it or not, Johnson pursued Dempsey just like he did Tommy Burns all those years ago and continuously was in the press saying Dempsey wasn't a true puncher like Bob Fitzsimmons and Jim Jeffries. Don't believe me?

Check out this 1929 interview he did and he said in his view Dempsey wasn't a great puncher because it often took Dempsey multiple punches to put a man down, unlike Bob Fitzsimmons who kayoed men with one shot.

http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?i ... 4893899&dq

Read that... 1929, between April-May an 18 part series on Jack Johnson and his career... The irony of this, too, is BOTH Johnson and Dempsey were in Saskatoon at the same time doing cross country Canadian tours (boxing exhibitions) and this gave birth to the myth the two men fought each other in front of a group of Klondike gold rushers.

HomicideHenry wrote:http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?i ... 4893899&dq

Read that... 1929, between April-May an 18 part series on Jack Johnson and his career... The irony of this, too, is BOTH Johnson and Dempsey were in Saskatoon at the same time doing cross country Canadian tours (boxing exhibitions) and this gave birth to the myth the two men fought each other in front of a group of Klondike gold rushers.

Uh....Saskatchewan is about 3,000 kms from the Klondike.

I seem to remember Jack Johnson saying that he could easily beat Jack Dempsey,something like
"He is a slasher,and those slasher fellows are my meat".
Matter of fact,wasn't there just a whole thread on this not too long ago ?

Cap wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?i ... 4893899&dq

Read that... 1929, between April-May an 18 part series on Jack Johnson and his career... The irony of this, too, is BOTH Johnson and Dempsey were in Saskatoon at the same time doing cross country Canadian tours (boxing exhibitions) and this gave birth to the myth the two men fought each other in front of a group of Klondike gold rushers.

Uh....Saskatchewan is about 3,000 kms from the Klondike.

aint you ever heard of those dog sledding races ?

HomicideHenry wrote:http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?i ... 4893899&dq

Read that... 1929, between April-May an 18 part series on Jack Johnson and his career... The irony of this, too, is BOTH Johnson and Dempsey were in Saskatoon at the same time doing cross country Canadian tours (boxing exhibitions) and this gave birth to the myth the two men fought each other in front of a group of Klondike gold rushers.

yeah,I remember a few years ago on the cyberboxing zone,we all tried to hyper-link the entire 18 part series that was published in the
Saskatoon News
there in the Google archives into a type of E-Book for future reference.
I think we found all of them except one installment.

HomicideHenry wrote:What you described never happened. Willard feints and lands a crushing right hand on Johnson, and is knocked out cold

He doesn't feint -- he loads and throws as Johnson is obviously inviting him to do as he moves back with his hands down.. Willard throws a right to the body which isn't an appropriate or believable KO punch, so Johnson keeps his hands down and invites another right.. He looks it all the way in and fakes a KO that nobody at ringside really believes..Nobody could hear it or see it land.. The ideal thing would be for it to hit your shoulder or chest and make an impressive sound, but that didn't happen.. But Johnson faked being KO'd and gently eased himself to the canvas not letting his head bounce on the canvas in the slightest -- the way it does if you're knocked unconscious

Once on the canvas Johnson rested his right glove on his left glove and shaded his eyes from the sun for the whole count... a few seconds into the count he stretched his legs out on the canvas as he continued to shade his eyes.. So saying he didn't move a muscle is incorrect.

Jack Johnson was past it when he fought the bigger, stronger, younger Jess Willard in the tropical heat of Cuba. He lasted as long as he could against the greater stamina of the big cowboy. He couldn't hurt him and he couldn't wear him down as he did with Jeffries. Like all champions he finally met his match. If they had boxed 10 years befor, Johnson would have won, especially if it was only twenty rounds. He just didn't have the juice left after 25 rounds and took one to the head that put him down.

Accept it and move on.

HomicideHenry wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:
I don't really buy into the "black is better" argument, for one main reason: all the black guys just fought the same guys over and over again, same styles and predictability. The white guys occasionally mixed up with blacks, and foreign fighters on a more frequent basis.

When Dempsey was known as Kid Blackie he fought black men from time to time, though that part of his life is rather opaque. He always had black guys as sparring partners. So one can't use the excuse that he wasn't good because there wasn't this long list of blacks on his record.

Just was wondering but aye if your told to dodge a CERTAIN RACE OF PEOPLE THEN HOW DON'T YOU BUY INTO IT DOES ONE JUST IGNORE IT

The logic THEN was they were beneath qualifications to fight for the biggest prize in boxing. The superiority argument that blacks were automatically better than whites started popping up in the civil rights era, especially after the Broadway play The Great White Hope premiered.

My argument is that neither mindset is correct. But I would argue that fighting the same guys over and over from start to finish in your career isn't going to really improve much of anything. Which is what most blacks did. It wouldn't be until the 1910's and onwards that you'd see black heavyweights fighting a more diverse group of people: whites, foreigners (Europeans), Hispanics, etc. and so they began confronting different styles, techniques, etc.

The lighter weight blacks were far luckier, being allowed to go after world championships alot sooner and getting far more opportunities than the heavyweight blacks... If you really think about it, Jack Johnson himself wouldn't get a great education in boxing until he lost to the likes of Joe Choynski and Marvin Hart... And from that point on he became unstoppable. Before that, he wasn't much different than Sam McVey and others.

Maybe a key piece of evidence to support my argument is that Sam Langford, who was the greatest boxer of all time in my eyes, couldn't really do much with Fred Fulton... But Jack Dempsey blew Fulton away in fifteen seconds... Maybe it's because Langford was so short, but he defeated tall men before... But I think part of it was because Langford was mostly relegated to fighting other black guys who weren't altogether as skilled as many whites were.

Ok was just wondering how many the great Dempsey that were negro

Dempsey at his best was an iron man... When he was extremely active He smashed out Fred Fulton in 18 seconds... Fulton won his next 20 fights in a row against some real good fighters. Doc Kearns actually bet 10,000 dollars that Dempsey would knock Willard out in the 1st round... He was almost certain a peak, youthful Dempsey would do it.. Today they would have kept counting when the bell rang and he would have won the bet easily.. Dempsey was stopped only once in his career -- his 1st fight with Fireman Jim Flynn.. That's one of the most suspicious KO's in the History of Boxing.. Dempsey was almost certainly consorting with gamblers and took a dump the 1st few seconds into the 1st round.

Dempsey's peak was very short lived like Mike Tyson's.. Dempsey took 2 and 3 years off between fights when he was World Champion.. That kind of fight schedule will knock just about any fighter on their ass.. One major problem with great punchers and brawlers is they're not super interested in the science of Boxing.. Their fights don't last a lot of rounds so they need MORE fights to stay sharper, not fewer.. They can be hard on sparring partners and wipe out a whole crew of them.. They need to get more in because they're working more from speed, power, and instincts than skills.. A boxer can take years off and possibly keep winning.. He outsmarting people and working from skills, game plan and strategy.. When he makes mistakes he recovers better.