BoxRec

Decagon wrote:I hate to bring this up, but "Marciano" isn't a verb.

Man, that had me rolling up, for some reason.

theone just answer the question of the thread please in a serious manner. how would you train marciano?

theone wrote:

thanx for your ridiulous remards devious and theone. btw, liston isnt a god. this fight could defintley go either way. he isnt going to go out there and blow away marciano.

Why so rediculous? Liston was bigger, taller,stronger more moblle had a much longer reach and much better boxing skills. My opinion is that Marciano, would be sliced and diced and stopped on cuts early in the fight. I think thats a valid opinion.

I think this fight would have been similar to Foreman/Frazier. Rocky has the wrong style to fight a guy like Liston. You can't just come at a guy who is bigger, stronger, faster and a harder hitter than you. Sonny would KO him within 5.

As far as training goes, If I had to send my boy Rocky into this I would tell him to duck and weave under the jab and try and get inside. It would be pretty hard though, to duck under a jab that moves faster than your head can bob. And in the unlikely scenario that Rocky did get past the left, how would I train him to deal with the sledgehammer right that would follow?

I think this fight would have been similar to Foreman/Frazier.

disagree nero. frazier was constantley moving in being aggresive and foreman was a lot more aggresive than liston. marciano on the other hand usually leaned back and conserved his energy and was methodical. liston was not aggresive and he liked to sit back and be content and box and wait for the opening. this defintley is not a frazier foreman match.

Examples:
1. Lennox Lewis Marcianoed Vitali Klitschko amid speculation that he couldn't win the rematch.
2. I predict that, should Chris Byrd win against Wladimir Klitschko, he will Marciano a rematch with Vitali Klitschko, but then again, Vitali Klitschko Marcianoed Hasim Rahman.

thats funny shit

Nero3000 wrote:You can't just come at a guy who is bigger, stronger, faster and a harder hitter than you. Sonny would KO him within 5.

Rocky wouldn't need to come straight at Liston. I would use the Duran-Barkley fight as a blueprint here.

Although in reality, I do think Liston would win.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

I think this fight would have been similar to Foreman/Frazier.

disagree nero. frazier was constantley moving in being aggresive and foreman was a lot more aggresive than liston. marciano on the other hand usually leaned back and conserved his energy and was patient. liston was not aggresive and he liked to sit back and be content and box and wait for the opening. this defintley is not a frazier foreman match.

He would be forced to be more agressive if he wanted to get past that jab that would be smacking his face in the form of a 15-inch fist at the end of an 84-inch reach. If Rocky leaned back from Sonny he would be stabbed to death.

Rocky wasn't the type of guy to just kick back and let himself get pounded. He would force the issue. Heck, he would have to if he wanted any success. You are right, it wouldn't be as quick as Foreman/Frazier, but the result would have been the same.

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:You can't just come at a guy who is bigger, stronger, faster and a harder hitter than you. Sonny would KO him within 5.

Rocky wouldn't need to come straight at Liston. I would use the Duran-Barkley fight as a blueprint here.

Although in reality, I do think Liston would win.

Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:You can't just come at a guy who is bigger, stronger, faster and a harder hitter than you. Sonny would KO him within 5.

Rocky wouldn't need to come straight at Liston. I would use the Duran-Barkley fight as a blueprint here.

Although in reality, I do think Liston would win.

Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

personally, I think foreman beats marciano but marciano beats liston. but hey thats just my opinion

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Rocky wouldn't need to come straight at Liston. I would use the Duran-Barkley fight as a blueprint here.

Although in reality, I do think Liston would win.

Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

i agree, marciano usually held his hands high. he kept his right hand sheidling his face to parry and his left to block out on front and his elbows were kept in to block the body punches.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote: Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

i agree, marciano usually held his hands high. he kept his right hand sheidling his face to parry and his left to block out on front and his elbows were kept in to block the body punches.

Yea, at range, Marciano's glove position was usually flawless. It's when he got inside he dropped his hands though, but his head movement and awkwardness almost fully compensated for that.

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Rocky wouldn't need to come straight at Liston. I would use the Duran-Barkley fight as a blueprint here.

Although in reality, I do think Liston would win.

Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Rocky wouldn't need to come straight at Liston. I would use the Duran-Barkley fight as a blueprint here.

Although in reality, I do think Liston would win.

Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote: Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

Have you not boxed before?

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you?

liston isnt faster than rocky. rocky even might have been faster as at times rocky threw very fast short punches when he wanted too. liston was too muscle bound and it slowed him down.

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote: Yes, but I don't think Rocky could use that as a blueprint cuz he didn't have anywhere near the skills of a Duran. Universes apart.

Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

im pretty sure liston would not put rocky down for the count. also i might ask when did liston ever show he could win a tough fight in adversity? when did he show he could go 15 hard rounds? where did he show heart? what about listons questionable chin? what about the effect rockys style might have on sonny mentally and even physically in the late rounds? how will liston react to adversity? will he quit on his stool again? what about listons vunerablity to right hands after jabs? ive seen him keep it low at times after the jab and get stunned by overhand rights.

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

Have you not boxed before?

why wouldnt rock be able to counter? rocky gave up huge reach advantages in most of his fights but was able to counter. just because u have short arms doesnt mean u cant counter.

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

Have you not boxed before?

If you knew how comical that questions was, you wouldn't even ask...*wink*

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you?

liston isnt faster than rocky. rocky even might have been faster as at times rocky threw very fast short punches when he wanted too. liston was too muscle bound and it slowed him down.

Yes my friend. He was faster. Quite a bit faster, actually. For example, check out the lightning left that floored Cleveland Williams or the quick right that downed Westphal. Watch Sonny's pre-Patterson bouts. Have you seen them? If you watch those and still can't see that Sonny is significantly faster, then we won't agree with anything else on this thread.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

DoubleM wrote: Of course - but he only needs to be taught a few things. The emphasis of holding the gloves high, lead body punches, counter right hands over the jab, and how to draw Liston onto him.

How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

im pretty sure liston would not put rocky down for the count. also i might ask when did liston ever show he could win a tough fight in adversity? when did he show he could go 15 hard rounds? where did he show heart? what about listons questionable chin? what about the effect rockys style might have on sonny mentally and even physically in the late rounds? how will liston react to adversity? will he quit on his stool again? what about listons vunerablity to right hands after jabs? ive seen him keep it low at times after the jab and get stunned by overhand rights.

The Cleveland Williams fight comes to mind. He was being outslugged by a slightly-quicker(they didn't call him the "Big Cat" for nothing), harder-punching heavy. Williams broke his nose and hit him with punches that would have leveled a skyscraper. Sonny walked through them and KO'd him in 3 and 2 rounds respectively.

Adversity? Heart? Marty Marshall broke his jaw early in their fight. Ever had a broken jaw or had to fight with one? Hurts like the devil. Sonny fought until the end. Then came back and KO'd Marshall in a later bout.

Questionable chin?? Between that and "Rocky is not slower than Sonny" and I'm beginning to see more and more that you and I will never find each other my friend.

The Cleveland Williams fight comes to mind. He was being outslugged by a slightly-quicker(they didn't call him the "Big Cat" for nothing), harder-punching heavy. Williams broke his nose and hit him with punches that would have leveled a skyscraper. Sonny walked through them and KO'd him in 3 and 2 rounds respectively.

cleveland williams simpl,y hit him with a couple good shots in the first round and that was it. cleveland williams didnt keep up the pressure. had he kept it up i think he would have beat sonny. but he didnt have sonny in adversity long enough for it take to an effect on sonny.

Questionable chin?? Between that and "Rocky is not slower than Sonny" and I'm beginning to see more and more that you and I will never find each other my friend.

please explain to me how sonny was faster?? his jab is slow. its a thunderous hammer but its slow. just watch his fights, his combinations though deadly are slow. hes just so muscle bound it hurts his reflexes. rocky at certain times showed he had decent handspeed and he threw shortpunches and because of his reach it made his punches travel faster. i just dont see how u think sonny was that much faster than rock?


say what u want about the marshal fight, just remember liston quit on his stool in a title fight vs ali because of a hurt shoulder. for the first time ever, liston was trailing on points and when he needed to comeback he didnt have it in him.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

DoubleM wrote:

Nero3000 wrote: How can you counter a guy with arms so long who is faster than you? Impossible for Rocky to counter Sonny.

And why would he need to "draw" Sonny towards him? Sonny wouldn't need to come forward. He could just sit back all day and spar Rocky with the jab until Marciano got fed up and charged. Then it's lights-out.

Have you not boxed before?

why wouldnt rock be able to counter? rocky gave up huge reach advantages in most of his fights but was able to counter. just because u have short arms doesnt mean u cant counter.

He wouldn't be able to counter for the same reason Leonard wasn't able to counter Hearns and had to get aggressive in order to land. Ray was faced with a taller, rangier fighter who was every bit as fast as he was. He sat back and tried to box but was ineffective and falling behind. Sonny is taller, has a longer reach and is not equally fast but FASTER than Rocky. Rocky gets aggressive or gets stabbed to death from long range. No luck countering here for reasons already stated.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

The Cleveland Williams fight comes to mind. He was being outslugged by a slightly-quicker(they didn't call him the "Big Cat" for nothing), harder-punching heavy. Williams broke his nose and hit him with punches that would have leveled a skyscraper. Sonny walked through them and KO'd him in 3 and 2 rounds respectively.

cleveland williams simpl,y hit him with a couple good shots in the first round and that was it. cleveland williams didnt keep up the pressure. had he kept it up i think he would have beat sonny. but he didnt have sonny in adversity long enough for it take to an effect on sonny.

You are talking about their second fight here. In their first fight Williams banged him nonstop with HUGE punches for the entire fight. He kept up the pressure just fine. Didn't do him any good.

Liston also fought big-punching Mike DeJohn and walked through everything he threw for 6 rounds for the KO.