BoxRec

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 15:15**

BoxBuzz wrote:I never tire of this debate Ali Vs Louis..... Unlike Bert Sugar and some very educated minds who favor Louis I'm with the Ali group.

However if they fought 3 times my guess is they would both get at least one win out of the series. How's that for having it both ways?

This is a good assesment I think. When I picture Louis -Ali I think of how difficult it would be for Joe with a 220 lb Billy Conn who wouldnt trade with him.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 15:16**

I quote Larry Merchany- "If a boxer like Billy Conn gave Louis fits, how is he gonna cope with Muhammad Ali? Ali, who is bigger than Billy Conn, stronger than Billy Conn, every bit as fast as Billy Conn and hits harder than Billy Conn."

I don't always agree with Merchant, but he hits it on the head here.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 15:17**

[quote="Nero3000"]I quote Larry Merchany-

MERCHANT!! Dammit! I gotta start typing slower....

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 15:31**

Nero3000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
And what about Joe's shakey chin?
louis did not have a shaky chin. i cant believe how underated louis's chin is nowadays
Schmeling. no huge puncher, stunned him numerous times and finally KO'd him.

no huge puncher?

schmeling rated in RINGS top 100 GREATEST PUNCHERS OF ALL TIME

schmeling had a very good right hand and yet it still took schmeling 12 rounds of hundreds of right hands to finally put down louis for the count.

Nat Fleischer in the Aug. 1936 Ring Magazine commenting on Louis loss to schmeling said "Louis at least answered the critics who said he couldn't take a punch. He took it, and how! He absorbed enough punishment to have laid low the average pugilist a half dozen times. Staggered time and again, he kept on his feet and fought back"

believe me schmeling could hit! out of his 56 wins, 40 were by KO.

- max schmeling knocked out young stribling with one right hand in the 15th round. that doesnt sound to much of a big deal until u hear in all of young striblings 300 fight career, he was knocked out ONLY ONCE! and that was a one punch KO by schmeling. that shows schmeling had real power!

- schmeling also knocked out underated top contender johhny risko in 9 rounds

- harry thomas was a very durable contender who was never knocked out before he fought schmeling

- hell even mickey walker proved himself a very durable heavyweight and look what happened when he got in there with schmeling? he took a huge beating and was floored 8 times

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 15:31**

I'll go with the Ali camp. I don't think Louis would KO Ali for starters. He had a great punch but how many times would Ali be caught? But I also don't go for Ali stopping Louis because I don't think he had a dodgy chin or that Ali had the punches to stop Louis. Getting knocked down doesn't mean you have a bad chin, well unless it happens all the time and you get beat! But you know what I mean. You have to take into account many factors before you say someone has a bad chin. Having said that I can see both fighters hitting the canvas but I wouldn't say that the fight would end there.

I see Ali winning this on points because above all else Ali was a fantastic tactian and thinker. I think he would find a way to beat Louis but it would be close.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 15:33**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Nero3000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: louis did not have a shaky chin. i cant believe how underated louis's chin is nowadays
Schmeling. no huge puncher, stunned him numerous times and finally KO'd him.

no huge puncher?

Allow me to clarify: I was comparing him to Foreman, Liston, Shavers, etc. When I say "huge" puncher, I'm talking about THAT clas of hitter.

Sure, Max could whack, but he wasn't in their league in terms of punching power.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 17:18**

Nero3000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Nero3000 wrote: Schmeling. no huge puncher, stunned him numerous times and finally KO'd him.

no huge puncher?

Allow me to clarify: I was comparing him to Foreman, Liston, Shavers, etc. When I say "huge" puncher, I'm talking about THAT clas of hitter.

Sure, Max could whack, but he wasn't in their league in terms of punching power.

fair enough

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 20:39**

Grimm wrote:
Nero3000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:its not about taking joes hardest shot. joe wasnt a harder hitter than liston or foreman, but he was a greater puncher than all of them. louis had faster handspeed, much more accuracy, threw far better and more unpredictable combinations, had late KO power, and had incredible snap in his punches. it wasnt the one shot, it was JOES COMBINATIONS. joe louis would hit u with one shot and it would paralzye u, then he would follow it up with the most devastating combinations uve ever seen and ur done. thats what made joe louis so deadly. he would hit u with a right that would paralyse u, u wouldnt go down but u wouldnt be able to move. thats when he would unlease his combos and finish u off. joe louis was the greatest puncher of all time and the greatest finisher of all time.

ali cant take joes combinations, no one can. dont forget, ali had a lot of flaws that he made up with incredible unheard of natural athletic ability and speed for a heavyweight. however i think joe louis would expose those flaws and ali would finally have to pay for them. even if he couldnt do it the first time, blackburn would prepare louis and i have no doubt louis would win the rematch vs ali. ali was also very sucepbtible to a left hook and joe had one of the best.

the question u have to ask urself is....would alis incredible speed and natural athletic ability be able to cover for his defensive flaws against the greatest puncher and offensive machine of all time?
Greatest puncher/finisher? Maybe. I personally would go with Sam Langford.
Really how many of his fights have you seen?

Really how many of his fights have you seen?

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 21:04**

Grimm wrote:
Grimm wrote:
Nero3000 wrote: Greatest puncher/finisher? Maybe. I personally would go with Sam Langford.
Really how many of his fights have you seen?
Really how many of his fights have you seen?

Didn't I already answer this? Scroll up.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 21:45**

Nero3000 wrote:
Grimm wrote:
Nero3000 wrote: Greatest puncher/finisher? Maybe. I personally would go with Sam Langford.
Really how many of his fights have you seen?
Nice try at trapping me Grimm. I know that there are only 3 filmed Langford fights in existence(and a couple that have yet to be found). I have seen the Flynn and Lang bouts. The rest of my argument can rest on his record. Hard to argue with it.

So you think he's the greatest finisher of all time based on three fights?

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 21:55**

Grimm wrote:
Nero3000 wrote:
Grimm wrote: Really how many of his fights have you seen?
Nice try at trapping me Grimm. I know that there are only 3 filmed Langford fights in existence(and a couple that have yet to be found). I have seen the Flynn and Lang bouts. The rest of my argument can rest on his record. Hard to argue with it.
So you think he's the greatest finisher of all time based on three fights?

No,based on his record vs. top opposition

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 22:13**

Nero3000 wrote:
Grimm wrote:
Nero3000 wrote: Nice try at trapping me Grimm. I know that there are only 3 filmed Langford fights in existence(and a couple that have yet to be found). I have seen the Flynn and Lang bouts. The rest of my argument can rest on his record. Hard to argue with it.
So you think he's the greatest finisher of all time based on three fights?
No,based on his record vs. top opposition

Now saying he's a great fighter based on his record vs. top opposition would be ok, but to know how great of a finisher he was you would have actually had to have seen a number of fights and seen when he had someone hurt if he could take him out.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 22:30**

Now saying he's a great fighter based on his record vs. top opposition would be ok, but to know how great of a finisher he was you would have actually had to have seen a number of fights and seen when he had someone hurt if he could take him out.[/quote]

Not necessarily. You can read the newspaper round-by-round accounts of the fights. Takes a minimal amount of research, really. Sam clearly was able to KO people when he had them hurt.

Posted: **13 Feb 2006, 22:32**

For instance, watch the Langford/Flynn fight, then read the newspaper account. The press reported the bout exactly as it happened. A person doesn't even have to watch the fight to know what happened. Read about it.

Posted: **14 Feb 2006, 00:21**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:well the ali-louis arguement IMO can go either way and has been beaten to death a millions times........

however im interested on hearing why think foreman, frazier, holmes, liston, and holyfield could beat joe louis?

Let's just do Liston, shall we? OK, first off one of Louis' big weapons was the jab. What would happen if it was nullified? Liston, with his monstrous 84 inch wingspan, could certainly do it. How could Joe get set with Sonny's jab smacking nonstop into his kisser?

Sonny was bigger, stronger, more durable and had a longer reach than Joe.

Joe would have to be the aggressor obviously. But how would he get inside? Does he get past the jab and left hook somehow? And if so he runs right into the sledgehammer right.

In a battle of big punchers like this you usually go with the guy with the stronger chin. In this case that's Liston.