BoxRec

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

nickd wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well if he beats Lacy you could make a case. Calzaghe is the longest running reigning champion, and would still be undefeated.

Neither lacy or Calzaghe are in my top 10 right now, but one or the other will be following this fight knocking Tarver off the bottom.

Longest reigning champion yes, but who has he been beating? There are countless champions who have fought far better competition.

Below PBF and Paquiao the P4P is pretty messed up so Joe/Lacy winner may be breaking the top6 for me.

Hopkins didn't really beat anyone other than blown up Trinidad either but he was P4P.

wehn you say blown up you mean a man who had 3 fights at light middle beat Joppy for a version of the middle title the fight before Hopkins and hadnt fought at welter for over 2 years right?

its a misconception that Tito just bulked up to middle for this fight a la de lay hoya, he had been operating at light middle for two years and couldnt have made welter again if he chopped his arm off..he was also the red hot favourite.

J wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

nickd wrote: Longest reigning champion yes, but who has he been beating? There are countless champions who have fought far better competition.

Below PBF and Paquiao the P4P is pretty messed up so Joe/Lacy winner may be breaking the top6 for me.

Hopkins didn't really beat anyone other than blown up Trinidad either but he was P4P.

wehn you say blown up you mean a man who had 3 fights at light middle beat Joppy for a version of the middle title the fight before Hopkins and hadnt fought at welter for over 2 years right?

its a misconception that Tito just bulked up to middle for this fight a la de lay hoya, he had been operating at light middle for two years and couldnt have made welter again if he chopped his arm off..he was also the red hot favourite.

Okay the win is a great 1 BUT Titos the smallest top Middle Ive seen outside of DLH in years (Winky looked huge compared to Tito). He beat Joppy - but Joppy wasn't an A Class middleweight. Tito went to 160lbs for greatness not because he couldn't make 154 - he'd make 154 with ease - he weighed 157 against Mayorga without boiling down and with some bodyfat. I think he could still make 147 he could certainly make 154.

Hopkins win over Trinidad gave him P4P no1 status - most his other wins were around Calazages comp level.

So the winner of Lacy/Calazage certainly deserves top6 P4P imo. Which 6 do you have above - PBF, maybe Paquiao (despite him losing to Marquez and Morales), Winky Wright, maybe Tarver but I'd have them above Tarver, Taylor and Hatton only have 1 big win, BHOPs lost, Corrales and Castillo both lost, Marquez has only ever fought Paquiao, Barrera lost to Pac and beat Morales whos now lost twice and won't face Paquiao again and James Toney but hes now a HW.........

You could make a case for the winner to be top4 even.

Max Molyneux wrote:

lawllb wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:Yeah and Reid wasn't washed up when Calzaghe fought him thats why he was tough.
I don't know how they can make Mayweather No 1 since he ain't fought the best either though anyway.

Mayweather has beaten potential future hall of famers, such as Corrales, Castillo and Gatti.

Mayweather beat the best fighters at super featherweight and then he beat the main man at lightweight (Castillo). However, he did not beat the best guys at light welterweight, but that can still happen.

Mayweather definitely deserves his number one spot because he beat the best guys at 2 weight divisions, and hopefully he will fight the best at a couple more weight divisions yet ......... fingers crossed

Gatti a hall of famer?

Yeah he beat Castillo and Corrales but at the time were they P4p though? They are good like but before their first fight were Castillo and Corrales P4P?

I hear Floyds beaten no P4p's yet so maybe them two wern't p4p at the time?

I never said Gatti was a hall of famer, idiot

I said those 3 guys were 'potential' hall of famers. Learn the word 'potential' mate. Corrales and Castillo have a great chance of being in the hall of fame and if Gatti beats Baldomir and then goes on to beat another couple of big names (like Hatton) then he has every chance of being in the hall of fame (mainly due to all the great battles he has had), but it's a big 'if'. The other 2 have a better chance of making the hall of fame. Nevertheless, Gatti is not shot and he has every chance of becoming a world champ again, PBF made him look like sh*t because PBF is different class.

The fact remains that PBF beat the best guys at 2 weight divisions and has every chance of continuing that onto a couple more weight divisions. That's why he's number one P4P.

How many other guys in the P4P top ten can say: they beat the best guys in 2 divisions; and won WTs at 3 different weights (soon to be 4); and also beat 2 future hall of famers (Corrales and Castillo) at their peak (i.e. not when they were shot); and are still undefeated? The answer is NONE.

Pacman may be able to say that very soon. He has already beaten Barrera and Morales, both emphatically, almost flattened Marquez, and may well flatten Larios soon too. He's campaigned at 4 weights also, though hasn't been a belt holder in all of them.

Just because he lost one to Morales and drew with Marquez doesn't make him any less a fighter, is Morales any less for losing to Barrera?

I anticipate Pacman overtaking Mayweather in the P4P stakes this year with greater competition.

Gatti will make the hall of fame no doubt about it. Look at some of the other guys that have been inducted it doesn't take much.

Agreed, there is absolutely no doubt Gatti will be inducted.

lawllb wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:

lawllb wrote: Mayweather has beaten potential future hall of famers, such as Corrales, Castillo and Gatti.

Mayweather beat the best fighters at super featherweight and then he beat the main man at lightweight (Castillo). However, he did not beat the best guys at light welterweight, but that can still happen.

Mayweather definitely deserves his number one spot because he beat the best guys at 2 weight divisions, and hopefully he will fight the best at a couple more weight divisions yet ......... fingers crossed

Gatti a hall of famer?

Yeah he beat Castillo and Corrales but at the time were they P4p though? They are good like but before their first fight were Castillo and Corrales P4P?

I hear Floyds beaten no P4p's yet so maybe them two wern't p4p at the time?

I never said Gatti was a hall of famer, idiot

I said those 3 guys were 'potential' hall of famers. Learn the word 'potential' mate. Corrales and Castillo have a great chance of being in the hall of fame and if Gatti beats Baldomir and then goes on to beat another couple of big names (like Hatton) then he has every chance of being in the hall of fame (mainly due to all the great battles he has had), but it's a big 'if'. The other 2 have a better chance of making the hall of fame. Nevertheless, Gatti is not shot and he has every chance of becoming a world champ again, PBF made him look like sh*t because PBF is different class.

The fact remains that PBF beat the best guys at 2 weight divisions and has every chance of continuing that onto a couple more weight divisions. That's why he's number one P4P.

How many other guys in the P4P top ten can say: they beat the best guys in 2 divisions; and won WTs at 3 different weights (soon to be 4); and also beat 2 future hall of famers (Corrales and Castillo) at their peak (i.e. not when they were shot); and are still undefeated? The answer is NONE.

You said future potential and please do not resort to insults.

Floyd beat Corrales at Super Feather not Lightweight either. He beat Castillo in Light weight twice.

Won 1 of those 3 weight titles against a guy who was only a paper champion who was mostly a brawler(Gatti). Soon to be 4 four maybe but Zab is only a paper champ now.

Only beating two good fighters doesn't give you P4p 1 spot.

Max Molyneux wrote:
You said future potential and please do not resort to insults.

Floyd beat Corrales at Super Feather not Lightweight either. He beat Castillo in Light weight twice.

Won 1 of those 3 weight titles against a guy who was only a paper champion who was mostly a brawler(Gatti). Soon to be 4 four maybe but Zab is only a paper champ now.

Only beating two good fighters doesn't give you P4p 1 spot.

Yes I said 3 potential future hall of famers, and your point is? That's exactly what they are. Jeez you are retarded

I know he beat Corrales at Super featherweight and he beat Castillo at Lightweight, I never said anything to the contrary, jeez you're illustrating your retardness even further with every comment

He beat the main man at 2 weights (i.e. Super featherweight and lightweight), he is a world champ at 3 weights, he is undefeated, he beat numerous ex world champs, he beat 3 potential future hall of famers, etc etc. None of the top ten p4p fighters can match those achievements. The only person who comes close is Pacman, but some may argue that Morales was past his best during his second fight against Pacman, that is arguable either way.

Gatti was more than a mere paper champ, and he is a potential future hall of famer. He was not a shot fighter and was simply outclassed by PBF. Gatti can still win WTs, he is far from shot.

The fact remains you have not shown me one active fighter who can match PBF's achievements and deserves to be above him in the P4P rankings? Therefore it is quite clear he deserves to be the number 1 P4P fighter. Maybe Pacman will challenge that spot soon (as jamesmcdonnell stated), but currently PBF deserves to be there and pretty much every boxing pundit would place him as number 1.

Max Molyneux wrote:

lawllb wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote: Gatti a hall of famer?

Yeah he beat Castillo and Corrales but at the time were they P4p though? They are good like but before their first fight were Castillo and Corrales P4P?

I hear Floyds beaten no P4p's yet so maybe them two wern't p4p at the time?

I never said Gatti was a hall of famer, idiot

I said those 3 guys were 'potential' hall of famers. Learn the word 'potential' mate. Corrales and Castillo have a great chance of being in the hall of fame and if Gatti beats Baldomir and then goes on to beat another couple of big names (like Hatton) then he has every chance of being in the hall of fame (mainly due to all the great battles he has had), but it's a big 'if'. The other 2 have a better chance of making the hall of fame. Nevertheless, Gatti is not shot and he has every chance of becoming a world champ again, PBF made him look like sh*t because PBF is different class.

The fact remains that PBF beat the best guys at 2 weight divisions and has every chance of continuing that onto a couple more weight divisions. That's why he's number one P4P.

How many other guys in the P4P top ten can say: they beat the best guys in 2 divisions; and won WTs at 3 different weights (soon to be 4); and also beat 2 future hall of famers (Corrales and Castillo) at their peak (i.e. not when they were shot); and are still undefeated? The answer is NONE.

You said future potential and please do not resort to insults.

Floyd beat Corrales at Super Feather not Lightweight either. He beat Castillo in Light weight twice.

Won 1 of those 3 weight titles against a guy who was only a paper champion who was mostly a brawler(Gatti). Soon to be 4 four maybe but Zab is only a paper champ now.

Only beating two good fighters doesn't give you P4p 1 spot.

Cobblers.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:
You said future potential and please do not resort to insults.

Floyd beat Corrales at Super Feather not Lightweight either. He beat Castillo in Light weight twice.

Won 1 of those 3 weight titles against a guy who was only a paper champion who was mostly a brawler(Gatti). Soon to be 4 four maybe but Zab is only a paper champ now.

Only beating two good fighters doesn't give you P4p 1 spot.

Cobblers.

I couldn't agree more

lawllb wrote:
Gatti was more than a mere paper champ, and he is a potential future hall of famer. He was not a shot fighter and was simply outclassed by PBF. Gatti can still win WTs, he is far from shot.

Gatti was a damn site more shot than Morales and is no way as good a win as Pacman's.

What it comes down to is that you think PBF looks like a better fighter than Pacman and therfore should rank higher, so to bring it back to the start, that is why Calzaghe rates so highly, because regardless of who he foought, he looks like the real thing.

bugs wrote:

lawllb wrote:
Gatti was more than a mere paper champ, and he is a potential future hall of famer. He was not a shot fighter and was simply outclassed by PBF. Gatti can still win WTs, he is far from shot.

Gatti was a damn site more shot than Morales and is no way as good a win as Pacman's.

What it comes down to is that you think PBF looks like a better fighter than Pacman and therfore should rank higher, so to bring it back to the start, that is why Calzaghe rates so highly, because regardless of who he foought, he looks like the real thing.

Yes PBF looks far better than Pacman, does Calazage look the part? Sometimes yes but not when he slaps. Calazages the sort of fighter you can only judge when hes been givn the real test (well maybe all fighters are). PBF beat Gatti with so much ease it was ridicolous though.

bugs wrote:

lawllb wrote:
Gatti was more than a mere paper champ, and he is a potential future hall of famer. He was not a shot fighter and was simply outclassed by PBF. Gatti can still win WTs, he is far from shot.

Gatti was a damn site more shot than Morales and is no way as good a win as Pacman's.

I totally agree with the fact that beating Gatti was no way near as big a win as Pacman beating Morales. However, I disagree with the fact that Gatti was more shot than Morales.

Morales had 2 losses in his last 3 fights and simply looked like a shadow of his old self against Raheem. In contrast Gatti had 5 wins in a row against decent fighters (including against world champs and ex champs), he didn't look shot at all in his previous fights. I have no idea why people think he was shot before he fought PBF, if anything he looked in decent form.

The only reason some people think Gatti was shot is because of the way PBF totally demolished him. That's happened because PBF is different class, and not because Gatti was shot.

lawllb wrote:

bugs wrote:

lawllb wrote:
Gatti was more than a mere paper champ, and he is a potential future hall of famer. He was not a shot fighter and was simply outclassed by PBF. Gatti can still win WTs, he is far from shot.

Gatti was a damn site more shot than Morales and is no way as good a win as Pacman's.

I agree with the fact that beating Gatti was no way near as big a win as Pacman beating Morales. However, I disagree with the fact that Gatti was more shot than Morales. Morales had 2 losses in his last 3 fights and simply looked like a shadow of his old self against Raheem. In contrast Gatti had 5 wins in a row against decent fighters (including against world champs and ex champs), he didn't look shot at all in his previous fights. I have no idea why people think he was shot before he fought PBF, if anything looked in decent form

Thats right Morales is a much bigger scalp but hes quite possibly been past his best and slipping for a while. Losses to MAB, beats Paquiao keeping away from the left, is dominated by Raheem, and starts to do okay against Pacman before just not having the energy to keep him off. I don't buy Paquiaos glove excuse from the first fight.

Shot is a very overused phrase in boxing.

Neither Morales nor Gatti are shot, I actually think Morales problem was desire more than anything. Perhaps he didn't train as hard as he should have for the second fight. Let's not forget Raheem was a lightweight too, and a pretty good operator Morales had an off night against Raheem, and definetly took him too lightly.

Let's see how Morales looks in a 3rd fight with Pacman, I have a feeling he has at least one big performance in him, and let's not forget, he absorbed a pretty terrific beating from Pacman before going down, he must have been pissing blood for a week.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:

lawllb wrote: I never said Gatti was a hall of famer, idiot

I said those 3 guys were 'potential' hall of famers. Learn the word 'potential' mate. Corrales and Castillo have a great chance of being in the hall of fame and if Gatti beats Baldomir and then goes on to beat another couple of big names (like Hatton) then he has every chance of being in the hall of fame (mainly due to all the great battles he has had), but it's a big 'if'. The other 2 have a better chance of making the hall of fame. Nevertheless, Gatti is not shot and he has every chance of becoming a world champ again, PBF made him look like sh*t because PBF is different class.

The fact remains that PBF beat the best guys at 2 weight divisions and has every chance of continuing that onto a couple more weight divisions. That's why he's number one P4P.

How many other guys in the P4P top ten can say: they beat the best guys in 2 divisions; and won WTs at 3 different weights (soon to be 4); and also beat 2 future hall of famers (Corrales and Castillo) at their peak (i.e. not when they were shot); and are still undefeated? The answer is NONE.

You said future potential and please do not resort to insults.

Floyd beat Corrales at Super Feather not Lightweight either. He beat Castillo in Light weight twice.

Won 1 of those 3 weight titles against a guy who was only a paper champion who was mostly a brawler(Gatti). Soon to be 4 four maybe but Zab is only a paper champ now.

Only beating two good fighters doesn't give you P4p 1 spot.

Cobblers.

Why?

Why? Because you seem to be saying Mayweather has only ever beaten 2 good fighters. Come on take the blinkers off for fucks sake!

lawllb wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:
You said future potential and please do not resort to insults.

Floyd beat Corrales at Super Feather not Lightweight either. He beat Castillo in Light weight twice.

Won 1 of those 3 weight titles against a guy who was only a paper champion who was mostly a brawler(Gatti). Soon to be 4 four maybe but Zab is only a paper champ now.

Only beating two good fighters doesn't give you P4p 1 spot.

Yes I said 3 potential future hall of famers, and your point is? That's exactly what they are. Jeez you are retarded

I know he beat Corrales at Super featherweight and he beat Castillo at Lightweight, I never said anything to the contrary, jeez you're illustrating your retardness even further with every comment

He beat the main man at 2 weights (i.e. Super featherweight and lightweight), he is a world champ at 3 weights, he is undefeated, he beat numerous ex world champs, he beat 3 potential future hall of famers, etc etc. None of the top ten p4p fighters can match those achievements. The only person who comes close is Pacman, but some may argue that Morales was past his best during his second fight against Pacman, that is arguable either way.

Gatti was more than a mere paper champ, and he is a potential future hall of famer. He was not a shot fighter and was simply outclassed by PBF. Gatti can still win WTs, he is far from shot.

The fact remains you have not shown me one active fighter who can match PBF's achievements and deserves to be above him in the P4P rankings? Therefore it is quite clear he deserves to be the number 1 P4P fighter. Maybe Pacman will challenge that spot soon (as jamesmcdonnell stated), but currently PBF deserves to be there and pretty much every boxing pundit would place him as number 1.

Floyd is still unproven at these higher weights to say he's the best out of them. He seems to be taking easier fights when he doesn't need to. Gatti was a Paper champ as Hatton is the proper champ at that weight.

How do we know Gatti's not shot Damgarrd hasn't fought anyone special and his WBC defences were hardly special.

He doesn't deserve the No 1 spot yet he deserves to be ranked but not that high!

If you want to resort to insults then just bring it as there my opinions and I'm entitled to them.

My point was it didn't matter saying potential or not it doesn't prove that Floyd is as good as nearly everyone says at this weight or Welterweight since he was always made for FLoyd.

Thanks, saved me the trouble. Floyd has beaten lots of good fighters. The definition of a good fighter doesn't have to be a fornicating all time great.

How many all time greats have Morales, Pacman, Barrera beaten?

It is VERY rare that a fighter even gets to face off against the best fighters of their era, it's precisely why Ray Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran are all held in such high esteem, because everyone fought everyone else, an incredible rarity when you have fighters at the top of their game.

OK prior to PBF Gatti beat Dorin (135lb champ PBF was critisesed for not fighting), Leija who had just beat Bodajo - beat him better then Zoo did, Branco, Ward - so Gatti was possibly at his best. Gatti was also probably top5 at 140 at the time. This isn't the biggest fight for PBF but who exactly whos worth their salt is trying to get in the ring with PBF? BEcause Hatton isn't at the moment.

Nothing to do with being an all time great just that Floyd seems to be taking the easier title holders or the non true champs.

Might not be his fault but havent heard him wanting them or he demands too much money when he's hardly a draw.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Thanks, saved me the trouble. Floyd has beaten lots of good fighters. The definition of a good fighter doesn't have to be a fornicating all time great.

How many all time greats have Morales, Pacman, Barrera beaten?

It is VERY rare that a fighter even gets to face off against the best fighters of their era, it's precisely why Ray Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran are all held in such high esteem, because everyone fought everyone else, an incredible rarity when you have fighters at the top of their game.

PBF also beat Gernaro Hernandez not CARLOS) at the age of 21 (who could rank higher than Castillo/Corrales). Gernaro was unbeaten at 130 (he lost at 135 to DLH) and beat Azumah Nelson and reigned for 7 years

PBF is currently fighting Tyuzus 2 best wins back to back - and these are his none signature fights. Gatti was a top player at 140 even if people don't like to admit it

The one guy Floyd should fight if he's serious about being a welterweight champion is the one guy nobody seems to want, Margarito. Cotto and Hatton right now aren't interested in fighting Floyd.

Mayweather beats Margarito, as hyped as Margarito is he is not that good IMO. No doubting its a tough fight for PBF but he'd win it.

Not even seen Margarito yet, but he's a big, solid, powerful middleweight who can fight. When you think that Castillo was able to bring the fight to Mayweather, then you would have to say Margarito would have an arguement.