BoxRec

Neri1983 wrote:

MightyWarrior wrote:Yeah just watching the Showtime version right now - took about 30 mins to down load here's the link -

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5ALZ82H6

What does it open with? WMP won't play it.

Download VLC media player, that plays just about everything.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Similar to mine stu

1 Mayweather (1)
2 Manny (2)
3 Barrera (3) - 1 good win since been dominated by MP
4 Toney (4) - hes a HW debateable
5 Wright (5) - was Mosley a great LMW champ? 2 great wins but I think hes overated
6 Calzaghe (12) - I'd have him top3 not just for Lacy but the manner of the win and
7 Hatton (6)
8 Castillo (7)
9 Marquez (8) - JMM just lost his brothers comp isn't as strong
10 Corralles (9)

Just outside, Taylor, Tarver, Chris John, lots of other little guys.

Yes, JMM Marquez just lost, but why does 1 loss have to spell an immediate end to your top 10 P4P status. He drops a place in fact I think I got the previous numbers wrong, he dropped 2 places.

Marquez lost a fight on the road against a good, hungry fighter who fought a very well executed battle plan. I give him some leeway as he should never have been travelling all the way there to fight John. I think Marquez was probably pretty mightily pissed off that he had to travel there to win back a title on the champs home turf for a title he was stripped of due to his managers incredible stupidity and the nonsense of the sanctioning bodies.

Toney is not just a heavyweight, he was also a middleweight, super middleweight and cruiserweight champ, and that is taken into account when assessing his career. He also has better all around fighting skills than just about anyone above middleweight, perhaps even further. For him to even be able to compete at heavyweight at 5'9 and 20lbs above his best fighting weight, is testament to his ability.

Wright gets there on longevity, not based on those wins over Mosley alone.

Calzaghe will go higher if he beats some more decent competition, one win over Lacy isn't enough for top 3. Pacman is in his 4th weight class and has dominated Barrera and Morales, dropped Marquez 3 times also, and has probably the best recent comp of any champions fighting.

So what if Barrera only has one good win win since Pacquaio, Pacquai is top 2, and is a formidable fighter. If he loses the return match he may fall off the list.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Similar to mine stu

1 Mayweather (1)
2 Manny (2)
3 Barrera (3) - 1 good win since been dominated by MP
4 Toney (4) - hes a HW debateable
5 Wright (5) - was Mosley a great LMW champ? 2 great wins but I think hes overated
6 Calzaghe (12) - I'd have him top3 not just for Lacy but the manner of the win and
7 Hatton (6)
8 Castillo (7)
9 Marquez (8) - JMM just lost his brothers comp isn't as strong
10 Corralles (9)

Just outside, Taylor, Tarver, Chris John, lots of other little guys.

Yes, JMM Marquez just lost, but why does 1 loss have to spell an immediate end to your top 10 P4P status. He drops a place in fact I think I got the previous numbers wrong, he dropped 2 places.

Marquez lost a fight on the road against a good, hungry fighter who fought a very well executed battle plan. I give him some leeway as he should never have been travelling all the way there to fight John. I think Marquez was probably pretty mightily pissed off that he had to travel there to win back a title on the champs home turf for a title he was stripped of due to his managers incredible stupidity and the nonsense of the sanctioning bodies.

Toney is not just a heavyweight, he was also a middleweight, super middleweight and cruiserweight champ, and that is taken into account when assessing his career. He also has better all around fighting skills than just about anyone above middleweight, perhaps even further. For him to even be able to compete at heavyweight at 5'9 and 20lbs above his best fighting weight, is testament to his ability.

Wright gets there on longevity, not based on those wins over Mosley alone.

Calzaghe will go higher if he beats some more decent competition, one win over Lacy isn't enough for top 3. Pacman is in his 4th weight class and has dominated Barrera and Morales, dropped Marquez 3 times also, and has probably the best recent comp of any champions fighting.

So what if Barrera only has one good win win since Pacquaio, Pacquai is top 2, and is a formidable fighter. If he loses the return match he may fall off the list.

James, come on about Marquez...he lost to an unknown to 50% of the boxing world...honestly, I didn't pay too much attention to John until he signed Marquez to fight there and it intrigued me to see how far Marquez would fall with his management.

John was not on anyone's P4P list, and with Marquez losing to him, you really have to take him off the list. Is John that good, or is JMM just mired by shitty management...who knows. But either way, JMM caught a good ass kicking by a guy not many had on their radar even with the WBA "belt". He has to slide off the top 10, especially with Calzaghe entering my 10, he has to slide out.

MightyWarrior wrote:

Neri1983 wrote:

MightyWarrior wrote:Yeah just watching the Showtime version right now - took about 30 mins to down load here's the link -

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5ALZ82H6

What does it open with? WMP won't play it.

Download VLC media player, that plays just about everything.

Ive tried VLC player and it just freezes

A similar topic P4P arose on the other forum where I post, so I thought I'd might aswell copy and paste my P4P ranking on future fights.

If Toney beats Rahman, Toney will move the #8 (everyone move down)

If Taylor loses vs Wright - then he moves out and gives way to Tarver/Hopkins winner (providing Toney beats Rahman).

If Taylor and Toney both lose - then those vacancies will be filled by Hop/Tarver winner #9 and O Neil Bell #10

If Taylor beats Wright - both will remain in the 10 but Wright will be position at #10.

I also have Arce, and Vaszquez close but none of them have fights looming that will push them into the 10.

Rank Fighter
1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Manny Pacquiao
3 Winky Wright
4 Marco Antonio Barrera
5 Jose Luis Castillo
6 Ricky Hatton
7 Antonio Tarver
8 Jermain Taylor
9 Joe Calzaghe
10 Israel Vazquez


There's mine after the rethinking things a bit...

Rafael Marquez, not JM, should be in the top 10 as he's beaten HOF worthy Mark Johnson and Tim Austin by stoppage and numerous other good fighters like Pastrama (twice) and Mabuza. Cos of the Pac 'draw', JMM sadly doesn't have one really good win since Medina, who was a bit past it. unless you count Polo.

Barrera's win over Peden was very good. Peden had stopped Nate Campbell twice and Nate had given Cassamayor a hard fight And would bash up Raiymkulov. so, I'd say 2 good wins for MAB, plus the credit due to him for bouncing back as he did.

viciousmaussa wrote:Rafael Marquez, not JM, should be in the top 10 as he's beaten HOF worthy Mark Johnson and Tim Austin by stoppage and numerous other good fighters like Pastrama (twice) and Mabuza. Cos of the Pac 'draw', JMM sadly doesn't have one really good win since Medina, who was a bit past it. unless you count Polo.

Barrera's win over Peden was very good. Peden had stopped Nate Campbell twice and Nate had given Cassamayor a hard fight And would bash up Raiymkulov. so, I'd say 2 good wins for MAB, plus the credit due to him for bouncing back as he did.

Let's not forget that losing to Manny Pac isn't a bad loss.

viciousmaussa wrote:

stujones wrote:There was a programme on Enzo on Radio Wales - he trained Joe for a bit - took him to a amateur club at a very young age, and the amateur club said he had a huge future and they didn't want to tamper with his progress.

As much as Enzo deserves praise, and I have slagged him off in the past - its the fighter that makes the trainer in most instances. Take Matthew and Ricky Hatton - both had the same upbringing, but one is a world beater - the other isn't.


As for P4P - I don't have Joe in the top 5 yet either, its very close between him and Hatton. Joe has still yet to beat a Kostya Tszyu esque opponent.

At least Carlos Maussa beat a top 5 Light Welterweight something still none of Joe's opponents have managed with the exception of Eubank.


Although I have Calzaghe sneeked past Hatton due to the manner of the Lacy win.

1) Mayweather 2) Pacquiao 3) Barerra 4) Wright 5) Rafael Marquez 6) Calzaghe 7) Hatton 8) Taylor 9) Castillo 10) Tarver

i hope damn well calzaghe's opposition didn't beat top 5 light welters. Robin reid did beat an ex 154 champ, JC Vasquez however, LOL

seriously, Joe's opp is better than you think

Byron Mitchell beat Siaca twice (top 10 s/m) and KO'd Frankie Liles (top 5). Brewer beat Herol Graham (coming off a comeback win over touted Chris Johnson and also Paz, to get a solid rating). Woodhall beat titlists Malinga, Silvio Branco and Nardiello, some of whom were surely top 10. Reid beat Nardiello, Wharton and would be robbed vs Ottke. Lacy spanked a top 10 guy in Reid, I don't know if Pemberton was or wasn't in the top 10.

hell, Sheika beat Glen Johnson who should have been top 10 on the strength of his fight with Ottke, i.e. barely losing

- I can see your point but its a little one sided - after those wins of each of those fighters, there were some critical defeats.

The only fighter you could argue was a top 5 fighter at the time they fought Joe was Byron Mitchell.

Woodhall and Reid were probably low top 10 at the time.

The rest were outside.

Brewer - lost to Ottke twice, lost to Echols prior to fighting Calzaghe. Neither Echols or Brewer have done much of note since that fight.

Reid - Scraped past Middleweight Cherifi (many thought he lost), lost to Malinga - but probably a top 10 fighter at the time - is 1-3 against top 15 rated opponents after Calzaghe.

Woodhall - Probably a top 10 fighter at the time of the fight, but lost to Beyer. The only top 10 fighter (at the time) Woodhall beat at Super Middleweight was Malinga. Glenn Cateley would later become a top ten fighter, Silvio Branco fought Woodhall at Middleweight.

Mitchell - Definately can be argued he was top 5, but lost to Ottke the fight before and wasn't getting any younger. At the time though there was Beyer, Lucas, Ottke, Joe, Echols (well supported following the Brewer win), Mundine, Larsen, Green all with cases to be ranked ahead of Mitchell - whoose position as world champion looked ropey vs Green.

I'm not arguing that these guys were never considered a top 5 - but not at the time they fought Joe, and Lacy has never beaten a top 5 Super Middleweight at the time of the contest. I would argue that both Reid and Pemberton were low top 10.

Harris was surely a top 5 Light Welter when he lost to Maussa.

viciousmaussa wrote:Rafael Marquez, not JM, should be in the top 10 as he's beaten HOF worthy Mark Johnson and Tim Austin by stoppage and numerous other good fighters like Pastrama (twice) and Mabuza. Cos of the Pac 'draw', JMM sadly doesn't have one really good win since Medina, who was a bit past it. unless you count Polo.

I agree, certainly about Rafael. I don't think he is as talented as is brother - but he has some quality wins on his resume. Mark Johnson especially went on to prove there was still alot in the tank when Marquez beat him - and Austin has apparently looked excellent in his featherweight comeback.

Those wins are as good as unifying the titles. If thats not good enough to warrant a top ten P4P ranking, then I don't know what is.

viciousmaussa wrote: i hope damn well calzaghe's opposition didn't beat top 5 light welters. Robin reid did beat an ex 154 champ, JC Vasquez however, LOL

seriously, Joe's opp is better than you think

Byron Mitchell beat Siaca twice (top 10 s/m) and KO'd Frankie Liles (top 5). Brewer beat Herol Graham (coming off a comeback win over touted Chris Johnson and also Paz, to get a solid rating). Woodhall beat titlists Malinga, Silvio Branco and Nardiello, some of whom were surely top 10. Reid beat Nardiello, Wharton and would be robbed vs Ottke. Lacy spanked a top 10 guy in Reid, I don't know if Pemberton was or wasn't in the top 10.

hell, Sheika beat Glen Johnson who should have been top 10 on the strength of his fight with Ottke, i.e. barely losing

Starie was also a decent fighter who was unlucky to the extreme against Ottke.

MightyWarrior wrote:
trainers like Roach & McGirt are rated the best of the best, but how many world class fighters have these guys trained from scratch? Zero I'd guess.

And Bouie Fisher - who else has he got except Hopkins?

You only need one masterpiece in a lifetime

Yes, but look at the wonders Buddy McGirt has done to Arturo Gatti. Who would have thought at 2006 and Gatti would be favourite to beat THE Welterweight champion when he was getting beaten by Ivan Robinson and munched by Angel Manfredy.

That warrants so much respect, as much if not more so than Enzo especially who nutured a naturally gifted athlete in achieving his potential - albeit from scratch.

Brendan Ingle might even warrant more respect for his achievements with Johnny Nelson. He's nutured a self proclaimed all arms and legs piss poor amateur into a long reigning world champion heading into his 40's.

I don't imagine (judging by his record and viewing his early fights) nobody thought Bernard Hopkins was going to be a world beater when he first stepped into the ring.

P4P lists are always very subjective, but my current list would be:


1: Mayweather
2: Pacquiao
3: Barrera
4: Wright
5: Calzaghe
6: Hatton
7: Castillo
8: Marquez
9: Taylor
10: Corrales

MightyWarrior wrote:By the way, how's this for a f*** up - unlike the rest of the country, ITV Wales didn't bother screening the Sunday AM repeat.

They screened a Swansea football match instead.

ITV Wales are showing the fight again tonight at 11:35pm due to public demand

stujones wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:

stujones wrote:There was a programme on Enzo on Radio Wales - he trained Joe for a bit - took him to a amateur club at a very young age, and the amateur club said he had a huge future and they didn't want to tamper with his progress.

As much as Enzo deserves praise, and I have slagged him off in the past - its the fighter that makes the trainer in most instances. Take Matthew and Ricky Hatton - both had the same upbringing, but one is a world beater - the other isn't.


As for P4P - I don't have Joe in the top 5 yet either, its very close between him and Hatton. Joe has still yet to beat a Kostya Tszyu esque opponent.

At least Carlos Maussa beat a top 5 Light Welterweight something still none of Joe's opponents have managed with the exception of Eubank.


Although I have Calzaghe sneeked past Hatton due to the manner of the Lacy win.

1) Mayweather 2) Pacquiao 3) Barerra 4) Wright 5) Rafael Marquez 6) Calzaghe 7) Hatton 8) Taylor 9) Castillo 10) Tarver

i hope damn well calzaghe's opposition didn't beat top 5 light welters. Robin reid did beat an ex 154 champ, JC Vasquez however, LOL

seriously, Joe's opp is better than you think

Byron Mitchell beat Siaca twice (top 10 s/m) and KO'd Frankie Liles (top 5). Brewer beat Herol Graham (coming off a comeback win over touted Chris Johnson and also Paz, to get a solid rating). Woodhall beat titlists Malinga, Silvio Branco and Nardiello, some of whom were surely top 10. Reid beat Nardiello, Wharton and would be robbed vs Ottke. Lacy spanked a top 10 guy in Reid, I don't know if Pemberton was or wasn't in the top 10.

hell, Sheika beat Glen Johnson who should have been top 10 on the strength of his fight with Ottke, i.e. barely losing

- I can see your point but its a little one sided - after those wins of each of those fighters, there were some critical defeats.

The only fighter you could argue was a top 5 fighter at the time they fought Joe was Byron Mitchell.

Woodhall and Reid were probably low top 10 at the time.

The rest were outside.

Brewer - lost to Ottke twice, lost to Echols prior to fighting Calzaghe. Neither Echols or Brewer have done much of note since that fight.

Reid - Scraped past Middleweight Cherifi (many thought he lost), lost to Malinga - but probably a top 10 fighter at the time - is 1-3 against top 15 rated opponents after Calzaghe.

Woodhall - Probably a top 10 fighter at the time of the fight, but lost to Beyer. The only top 10 fighter (at the time) Woodhall beat at Super Middleweight was Malinga. Glenn Cateley would later become a top ten fighter, Silvio Branco fought Woodhall at Middleweight.

Mitchell - Definately can be argued he was top 5, but lost to Ottke the fight before and wasn't getting any younger. At the time though there was Beyer, Lucas, Ottke, Joe, Echols (well supported following the Brewer win), Mundine, Larsen, Green all with cases to be ranked ahead of Mitchell - whoose position as world champion looked ropey vs Green.

I'm not arguing that these guys were never considered a top 5 - but not at the time they fought Joe, and Lacy has never beaten a top 5 Super Middleweight at the time of the contest. I would argue that both Reid and Pemberton were low top 10.

Harris was surely a top 5 Light Welter when he lost to Maussa.

maybe not all top 5, but most of these guys have been scattered round the top 10 & proven world class in that they've held titles, beat good fighters at various times and some put up career best showings vs Calzaghe. Mitchell and Brewer (2) fought very well, losing close albeit fair decisions to Ottke. Brewer did lose to Echols but almost everyone felt Brewer was ok to continue. I certainly think Reid's case is strengthened by good past wins & getting shafted by the Ottke judges and ref. The wins and losses these men had at least prove them to be world class.

There's lots of guys Calzaghe could have fought, Larsen in particular. I'm not saying all the guys he beat were amazing; just making a case that when you connect the dots there's proof of good work in JC's resume - showing a gulf in class between he and the world class foes he faced.

I don't know how Sheika was rated at the particular time, but it looks a lot better now that he'd beaten Glen Johnson in his fight prior to JC.

Mattyp151 wrote:
He has to slide off the top 10, especially with Calzaghe entering my 10, he has to slide out.

Matty Im quite bemused by the fact that you have been so adamant and dillusional might I add that beating Lacy was not an example of world class beating, yet now you are contributing to posts saying that the result of that fight has bumped Clazaghe up in your list of top ten P4P fighters. Still there are hints of bitterness in your underhanded criticisms of Joe, but you seemd to be contradicting yourself constantly.

glahn wrote:P4P lists are always very subjective, but my current list would be:


1: Mayweather
2: Pacquiao
3: Barrera
4: Wright
5: Calzaghe
6: Hatton
7: Castillo
8: Marquez
9: Taylor
10: Corrales

Good list, i.e very similar to mine

if Bell beats Steve Cunningham, a case could be made for O'Neil as a top 10-12. this guy beat some very tough men on the way to his IBF title, incl. three title eliminators; doesn't always look good, but he does what works for him and he deserves mad credit for stopping the excellent Mormeck to unify 3 belts

stujones wrote:
Yes, but look at the wonders Buddy McGirt has done to Arturo Gatti. Who would have thought at 2006 and Gatti would be favourite to beat THE Welterweight champion when he was getting beaten by Ivan Robinson and munched by Angel Manfredy.

That warrants so much respect, as much if not more so than Enzo especially who nutured a naturally gifted athlete in achieving his potential - albeit from scratch.

Brendan Ingle might even warrant more respect for his achievements with Johnny Nelson. He's nutured a self proclaimed all arms and legs piss poor amateur into a long reigning world champion heading into his 40's.

I don't imagine (judging by his record and viewing his early fights) nobody thought Bernard Hopkins was going to be a world beater when he first stepped into the ring.

But keep in mind Enzo has absolutely no boxing background or training at all - Zero. Which makes what he as done so amazing.
Not sure about Ingle's background...he's very similar to Enzo though - a self taught maverick.

The argument about Joe being the real talent in the partnership could be applied to any trainer in the world. I remember watching Gatti win his first world title 10 years ago with a beautiful boxing exhibition - so the talent was always there.

Not saying Buddy isn't a world class trainer, I'm just saying that Enzo gets virtualy no press and no credit.

And Taylor definitely P4P top ten? Who has he beaten? Did he really beat Hop? Last time I watched him he looked very average.

Brendan definately did fight amateur at least, I haven't read "The Paddy and the Prince" which I assume will discuss Brendan's beginings, but there was a mention of an amateur career in one of those Hamed video's the SN released when he was first champion.

Yes, being an openly admited "non boxing person" makes his achievements with Joe unique - not sure if this makes it better than some of the coaches discussed here who did have a boxing background.

I do like his corner work (even if its not suitable for TV), so I hope can deliever for a fighter not as talented as his boy. I imagine he'll have alot of young boxers phoning him up now, just hope he can adapt to fighters who might not have been as talented, or might need a different approach.

Jack Mosley did a remarkable job with his lad aswell, despite them parting ways - he guided Shane to two world titles and a P4P top 3 position. However, has there been anyone else he has coached?

Similarly Floyd Mayweather Snr with his lad, but under him Oscar De La Hoya has regressed a great deal (IMO).

stujones wrote:Brendan definately did fight amateur at least, I haven't read "The Paddy and the Prince" which I assume will discuss Brendan's beginings, but there was a mention of an amateur career in one of those Hamed video's the SN released when he was first champion.

Yes, being an openly admited "non boxing person" makes his achievements with Joe unique - not sure if this makes it better than some of the coaches discussed here who did have a boxing background.

I do like his corner work (even if its not suitable for TV), so I hope can deliever for a fighter not as talented as his boy. I imagine he'll have alot of young boxers phoning him up now, just hope he can adapt to fighters who might not have been as talented, or might need a different approach.

Jack Mosley did a remarkable job with his lad aswell, despite them parting ways - he guided Shane to two world titles and a P4P top 3 position. However, has there been anyone else he has coached?

Similarly Floyd Mayweather Snr with his lad, but under him Oscar De La Hoya has regressed a great deal (IMO).

I used to wonder whether Enzo was a great trainer or if he just had an excellent talent that he put all his energy into. Joe used to get hit with lots of right hands, at he did versus Woodhall and Reid, and ppl have criticised the father/son relationship for this, as if Enzo couldn't iron out everything. not saying I agree, mind, as they've done pretty fucing well

Terence wrote: Warrior, someone got there first but McGirt rebuilt Gatti and eked out his career and Roach is turning Manny around IMO. To compare it to something Enzo is like a mechanic dealing aluxury car that he only has to fine tune; Roach and McGirt rebuilt their cars from scratch.

This is a good example of what I mean - looking at trainers though stars n stripes tinted specs.
Going by this, you'd think Manny and Gatti were plucked off the streets, rather than very acomplished ex world champs. Gatti was always a great boxer, and all Buddy did was remind him of this - just as any trainer would do - not rocket science. Nothing from scratch about that.

There not Terminator like though like Joe is. 8)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ ... hassss.jpg

To be fair to Enzo, the reason Pryce withered on the vine is that he was managed poorly. He was matched far too hard too early, and was fighting 12 rounders when he shouldn't have been.

Terence wrote:

MightyWarrior wrote:

Terence wrote: Warrior, someone got there first but McGirt rebuilt Gatti and eked out his career and Roach is turning Manny around IMO. To compare it to something Enzo is like a mechanic dealing aluxury car that he only has to fine tune; Roach and McGirt rebuilt their cars from scratch.

This is a good example of what I mean - looking at trainers though stars n stripes tinted specs.
Going by this, you'd think Manny and Gatti were plucked off the streets, rather than very acomplished ex world champs. Gatti was always a great boxer, and all Buddy did was remind him of this - just as any trainer would do - not rocket science. Nothing from scratch about that.

Warrior, I'm from Manchester England not the USA.

Look at the circumstances surrounding Gatti, he had completely forgotten how to apply his skills. Now look at Lacy versus Calzaghe (where they pleaded with Jeff to switch approach) then Joe versus Salabry when Enzo (the genius) pleaded with Joe to change his tactics mid-fight to no avail. Now imagine how hard it is to train someone like Gatti mid-career to get back onto his boxing. Then factor in Gatti's fan expectation and the pressure that brings. Roach and McGirt are going to have great success over the coming years, when Joe retires Enzo is done as a "genius" trainer; unless you want to put forward Pryce as his next Joe. Why did Pryce wither on the vine? Enzo didn't have the magic touch with him, why did he have it with Joe? Because Joe had the talent. Enzo's style, like the Ingle's, is pretty good when it works but don't you think that Joe would have had less injuries and more ring time and therefore more impact if he had a trainer who sorted out his punch technique?

That's a poor analogy terrence. You cannot blame the trainer if the fighter won't listen. A lot of fighters don't listen to their trainers. Was Angelo Dundee a bad trainer because Ali wouldn't listen to him. Angelo himself said that in the end he pretty much let Muhammad fight his own fight, as he could never get him to follow instructions.

Again, with the punching technique, I don't know any other of Enzo's fighters who slap like that, that is down to Calzaghe.

Gatti had already been a world champ when McGirt got hold of him, he just reminded him how to do the basics, but come on, he got whacked often and hard by Gatti in all 3 fights, less so in the 3rd, but it's not like he totally transformed Gatti into some Willo the wisp type reincarnation of willie pepp is it?