BoxRec

headhunter wrote:

Caulk Rocket wrote:

bobbyd wrote: nahhh.tyson could'nt ko mitch green or james tillis during his awesome tomato can killer reign of 86-88.how in the world would he ko holyfield.other fighters that'd have beaten him or given him hell had he won against buster douglass would be.

-riddick bowe(would've worn down mikey and ko'd em between rounds 9-11.
-ray mercer(would've withered tyson's tomato can killer style storm of flailing away like a pyschopath and lasted the distance.also would've been a very unenjoyable opponent for tyson.)
-george foreman(would've gone the distance in a rather dullish fight with a futilly flailing sloppy looking over anxiously eager kid "not so dynamite" tyson.)this fight could've very likely wound up being a draw.
-lennox lewis.(certainly likely,would've difused the kid's dynamite and clocked him cold,as lewis would be cautious and respective of tyson unlike his fluke 1st outing with mc call.i see lewis ko'ing em in 8 or 9.

Foreman was way out of shape, and Michael Moorer was a chump anyway. Foreman beat a chump in Moorer, who had beat Holyfield. If Bowe couldn't KO Holyfield, who had a better chin than Tyson, he couldn't have KO'd Tyson because Mike's power would have worn him down much more.

Don't even mention Lewis. He was put to sleep twice, not only was he out cold, it was really early both times. Holyfield nor Tyson were ever put down like that, even after their prime. Rahman is a clown, and McCall is a chump that lost to Bruno, Tucker, and Douglas. Lewis has far worse losses, albeit less losses, than Tyson and Holyfield.

With the exception of Williams, Tyson was always knocked out late when he did lose. Lewis and Holyfield took an out-of-prime Tyson out late in the fight, whereas Lewis was KTFO's by two chumps, and Holyfield had several really disappointing losses.

When Tyson lost, he lasted much longer with much better fighters. When Lewis lost, a chump took him out instantly.

i dont know why you keep saying lewis was put to sleep twice.
in the mccall fight he was on his feet way before ten and when the ref called it off he went apeshit. i actually agree with the ref, he looked a bit glassy eyed and wobbly on his legs but he certainly wasnt rolling around the floor looking for his gumshield like some i could mention.

RazorKO wrote:Well I compeltly agree with the ref stopping the Lewis-McCall fight. Lewis was floored by a wierd right hand thrown by McCall and Lewis got up and stumbled and the ref had to hold him up. If the ref would of let it continue than McCall would of knocked him out without question finishing his career.

Tyson however was never knocked out flat by a single punch like Lewis was. It was always a sustained beating and Tyson ate a lot of punches before falling, and Tyson still gets up!

Lewis on the other hand regarding the Rahman fight, was actually LAUGHING at Rahman... then BANG! Rahman hits him with peach of a punch and you can see clearly see Lewis isnt smiling anymore

If you want to be arrogant and taunt....at least do it when you are AWAY from your opponent with your hands down

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Arsenal wrote:Remember Lewis was out of shape for Rahman just like Tyson was for Douglas. Totally agree about the Lewis stoppage against McCall. The fact Lewis only got knocked down twice in his whole career doesn't tell me he has a glass jaw. It does tell me that he had to be Koed to be beaten. How many boxers would like that as part of their boxing ability. KO me or you're not winning!

- An out of shape Tyson knocked Douglas down to 9.5, some arguably say 10, he actually won the fight
- Tyson didn't go down until late in the fight, Lewis down in round 2.
- Lewis was put to sleep by Rahman, Tyson never was his whole career

Tyson had to be KO'd as well, he lasted far longer than Lewis did in his losses (with the exception of Williams, but Tyson fought further out of his prime than Lewis ever did because he was desperate for the money). How long could Lewis have lasted against a top HW in their prime? An over-the-hill Tyson lasted 8 rounds with Lewis.

sockdollanger wrote:not that it matters because I believe Mike deserved to lose. if you watch the knockdown of Douglas, he is given atleast 2 seconds longer than a 10 count. Had Mike won that fight, I still believe he was on a path of a downward spiral, someone else would have gotten the distinction of achieving the seemingly impossible. I still have the recording of the original airing. Mike was my hero back then (how times have changed) and the letdown I felt when I watched it was incredible. Poor Mike and poor me as well!

BoxBuzz wrote:Ezzard that is another reason Tyson overall life achievment assessment has lost it's earlier high ranking.

evndrbsn wrote:

RazorKO wrote:Well I compeltly agree with the ref stopping the Lewis-McCall fight. Lewis was floored by a wierd right hand thrown by McCall and Lewis got up and stumbled and the ref had to hold him up. If the ref would of let it continue than McCall would of knocked him out without question finishing his career.

Tyson however was never knocked out flat by a single punch like Lewis was. It was always a sustained beating and Tyson ate a lot of punches before falling, and Tyson still gets up!

Lewis on the other hand regarding the Rahman fight, was actually LAUGHING at Rahman... then BANG! Rahman hits him with peach of a punch and you can see clearly see Lewis isnt smiling anymore

If you want to be arrogant and taunt....at least do it when you are AWAY from your opponent with your hands down

Tyson was KO'd by a blocked punch from Danny Williams. That was pretty embarrassing for me to watch as a Tyson fan, especially since I predicted a vicious KO for Iron Mike. At least Lewis was KO'd by flush shots from huge hitters who were able to compete on a global scale as opposed to the local British circuit like Williams.

Caulk Rocket wrote:"If my jaw had any more glass in it, I could use it to drink a nice cup of English Tea, without lifting a finger because the cup's already in my jaw. I could then use my free hands to munch on a crumpet and watch my favorite Benny Hill episodes."

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

Caulk Rocket wrote: - An out of shape Tyson knocked Douglas down to 9.5, some arguably say 10, he actually won the fight
- Tyson didn't go down until late in the fight, Lewis down in round 2.
- Lewis was put to sleep by Rahman, Tyson never was his whole career

Tyson had to be KO'd as well, he lasted far longer than Lewis did in his losses (with the exception of Williams, but Tyson fought further out of his prime than Lewis ever did because he was desperate for the money). How long could Lewis have lasted against a top HW in their prime? An over-the-hill Tyson lasted 8 rounds with Lewis.

Depends how you want to see it...

Lewis was KO'd cleanly but never beaten up, never mastered in the ring. Tyson was beaten up and was mastered in the ring.

Lewis continued to learn throughout his career. Tyson didn't.

If Tyson was beaten up, that proves his chin to me. It seems his uppercuts were just as solid as his chin then, which made him pretty well rounded. Lewis was never beaten up because he never faced a true champ in their prime.

Tyson didn't learn because he didn't box for the sport, he did it for the money because prison ruined him. Imagine you just cleaned up a division, made millions, and then got sent prison at the height of your career, without getting to avenge your only loss.

cybox wrote:Here is a list of fighters who were in line in the early 90's to get a crack at TYson's belt had he not lost to Douglas.
** fights record at time of Douglas loss
Michael Dokes 41-2-2 (26) 31 yrs old
Renaldo Snipes 36-7-1- (21) 31 yrs old
Ray Mercer 13-0 (10) 28 yrs. old
Tim Witherspoon 31-3 (23) 32 yrs old
Gary Mason 33-0 (31) 27 yrs old

How would they have fared? I see 5 more successful defenses for Tyson had he gotten past Douglas. Then fought Holyfied and Ruddock and Bowe and Lennox after these five and cashing in on a few easy paydays first.

overhand_right wrote:I thought they guys being talked about by DK were Adilson Rodriguez, Francesco Damiani, Jose Ribalta II and Quick Tillis II..

Decagon wrote:Douglas's "long count" had nothing to do with the fight being in Japan. Tyson didn't go to a neutral corner; end of story.

silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....

evndrbsn wrote:

silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....

We agree on this. People tend to overlook this lack of character for Tyson when rating his "prime" years of '86 to '88. If Tyson would have faced a Holyfield type fighter at this time, he would have gone into a shell when he couldn't blow the guy out like he normally did. Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Holyfield I ... he just did not have what it took in his heart to become a top five heavyweight (or top ten in my opinion).

silkov wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:

silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....

We agree on this. People tend to overlook this lack of character for Tyson when rating his "prime" years of '86 to '88. If Tyson would have faced a Holyfield type fighter at this time, he would have gone into a shell when he couldn't blow the guy out like he normally did. Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Holyfield I ... he just did not have what it took in his heart to become a top five heavyweight (or top ten in my opinion).

Stranger things have happened I suppose, but in my lovely fantasy land Holyfield would still have beaten Tyson even if they had met in the late 80s... Evander basically just had too much balls for Tyson and would always have beaten him... people also overlook the fact that Evander was pretty far removed from his prime himself by the time he fought Tyson... he was older and far more ringworn yet still beat Mike like he was his daddy.... 8)

KOJOE90 wrote:

overhand_right wrote:I thought they guys being talked about by DK were Adilson Rodriguez, Francesco Damiani, Jose Ribalta II and Quick Tillis II..

I don't remember much talk about Tillis and Ribalta rematches, although I do remember the one and only Mitch Green constantly screaming for one.

I do however remember talk of the Rodriguez & Damiani fights as there was speculation on Tyson going on a 'World Tour' and fighting them in their home countries. I believe Tyson would have crushed both of them.

Prior to the Rodriquez v Holyifield fight Adilsons then trainer Angelo Dundee was quoted as saying "You will need a baseball bat to knock my guy out"

Somebody forgot to tell The Real Deal that.

overhand_right wrote:The reason you dont 'remember' joe is that reg gutteridge doesnt mention it in your sole point of reference which is old Tyson video tapes.

silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....