expug wrote:Damn good but I dont know about great. Willies record was great I know but Im looking for that win over a true all time great that justifies his often being ranked as one of the top 5 or even 10 p4p in history.
is a unanimous decision over a peak sandy saddler top 3 feather weight of all time top 15 p4p fighter of all time good enough for you?
did henry armstrong, or salvador sanchez ever beat a fighter as good as a peak sandy saddler?
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:-he probably threw the lulu perez and tommy collins fights, but regardless he was well past his prime. but he most likely took dives in these fights,
Is Pep taking a dive supposed to make him look better? Shit, taking a dive is worse than quitting, and quitting is worse than being knocked out, for the most part.
i agree, however u cant hold it against his fighting ability
hehe.nice one decagon.
i think a lot of the stronger feathers with decent power stand a shot at beating pep(they need to be top fighters as well mind you)therefore the likes of sanchez,mcgovern,saddler,armstrong and arguello must all be in with a shout.i'm not saying they would but to just dismiss their chances is ludicrous.
expug wrote:Damn good but I dont know about great. Willies record was great I know but Im looking for that win over a true all time great that justifies his often being ranked as one of the top 5 or even 10 p4p in history.
is a unanimous decision over a peak sandy saddler top 3 feather weight of all time top 15 p4p fighter of all time good enough for you?
did henry armstrong, or salvador sanchez ever beat a fighter as good as a peak sandy saddler?
I agree that victory over Saddler was big . But like I posted earlier he needs some victories over other all time greats before I put him in top 5 or 10 p4p all time, because Saddler beat him three times. I dont discount those three victories of Saddlers at all. Now if Pep would have beat Saddler 3 out of 4 , I would agree with you.
expug wrote:Damn good but I dont know about great. Willies record was great I know but Im looking for that win over a true all time great that justifies his often being ranked as one of the top 5 or even 10 p4p in history.
is a unanimous decision over a peak sandy saddler top 3 feather weight of all time top 15 p4p fighter of all time good enough for you?
did henry armstrong, or salvador sanchez ever beat a fighter as good as a peak sandy saddler?
I agree that victory over Saddler was big . But like I posted earlier he needs some victories over other all time greats before I put him in top 5 or 10 p4p all time, because Saddler beat him three times. I dont discount those three victories of Saddlers at all. Now if Pep would have beat Saddler 3 out of 4 , I would agree with you.
yes but pep was past his prime when he fought saddler so this gives more credit to pep since he managed to win. also pep was dominating the 3rd fight before dislocating his shoulder. you havnt commented the fact that a past his prime willie pep managed to beat sandy saddler and he was well on his way in the 3rd fight. fact is, pep at his peak was unbeatable. but even the 1948-50 post prime pep was still one of the best feathers in history.
if u have seen willie pep on film, u will admit willie pep is a god
- i have the luxury of owning two fights of pep at his absolute peak pre plane crash
- u make a big deal out of a win over an all time great fighter, isnt a win over sandy saddler enough? just wut exactley are u looking for? who did henry armstrong beat at feather that could match peps resume?
PEP beat some of the best competition in featherweight history. he beat a lot of very good fighters. chalky wright is a great fighter.
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
is a unanimous decision over a peak sandy saddler top 3 feather weight of all time top 15 p4p fighter of all time good enough for you?
did henry armstrong, or salvador sanchez ever beat a fighter as good as a peak sandy saddler?
I agree that victory over Saddler was big . But like I posted earlier he needs some victories over other all time greats before I put him in top 5 or 10 p4p all time, because Saddler beat him three times. I dont discount those three victories of Saddlers at all. Now if Pep would have beat Saddler 3 out of 4 , I would agree with you.
yes but pep was past his prime when he fought saddler so this gives more credit to pep since he managed to win. also pep was dominating the 3rd fight before dislocating his shoulder. you havnt commented the fact that a past his prime willie pep managed to beat sandy saddler and he was well on his way in the 3rd fight. fact is, pep at his peak was unbeatable. but even the 1948-50 post prime pep was still one of the best feathers in history.
if u have seen willie pep on film, u will admit willie pep is a god
- i have the luxury of owning two fights of pep at his absolute peak pre plane crash
- u make a big deal out of a win over an all time great fighter, isnt a win over sandy saddler enough? just wut exactley are u looking for? who did henry armstrong beat at feather that could match peps resume?
PEP beat some of the best competition in featherweight history. he beat a lot of very good fighters. chalky wright is a great fighter.
I'm excited to see the couple fights of Pep I have coming in. I'm not sure who they're vs, but I hear they're top notch quality.
I got Saddler better than Pep based on the four fights they fought. I think Willie was a tremendous boxer, and like I said his victory over Saddler was huge. But before I put him with the top 5 or 10 all-time, I gotta see better victories then Chalky Wright, who was an excellent champ I know but not an all time great in my opinion. Willie has some real good wins on his record , but by far his biggest one is over Saddler who beat him 3 out of 4 so why shouldnt we actually be asking who could beat Saddler. Pep is perhaps the only champ in history who can lose a series 3 out of 4 to a guy and then somehow be ranked by historians ahead of that same guy. I never understood this. I dont really agree that Pep was past his prime when he lost to Saddler . The last time they fought he was 29 years old. He probably fought another 50 or 60 times after this and probably lost only a few. I know about the neck injury from the plane crash but it seems very difficult to tell how much that injury effected his later performances.
expug wrote:Damn good but I dont know about great. Willies record was great I know but Im looking for that win over a true all time great that justifies his often being ranked as one of the top 5 or even 10 p4p in history.
is a unanimous decision over a peak sandy saddler top 3 feather weight of all time top 15 p4p fighter of all time good enough for you?
did henry armstrong, or salvador sanchez ever beat a fighter as good as a peak sandy saddler?
Armstrong and Sanchez were both greats in their own right and both beat tremendous opposition... I don't think Pep ever fought anyone as good as either of them... both were better than Saddler...
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:if u have seen willie pep on film, u will admit willie pep is a god
Sure, Pep looks great on film. You know what? So does Howard Davis, so does Hector Camacho. So does Kirk Johnson. It takes a little more than looking good on tape to be called unbeatable at a certain weight. I wouldn't call a prime Ali unbeatable at heavyweight, and he proved himself against much better fighters than Pep did. I wouldn't call a prime Robinson unbeatable at welterweight, and he proved himself against much better fighters than Pep did.
the only fight pep ever lost in his prime was a over the weight match to the heavier lightweight Hall of famer sammy angott.
Hamed did lose when he should have been in his prime but he took his eye off the ball... he also had flaws which the likes of Kelley and Barrera were able to exploit.... At his best Pep was as close to unbeatable that almost any champion has been, but I'd also put the likes of Armstrong, Sanchez and Pedrosa there as well... Armstrong was pure Dynamite and I'd personally put him at the top of all the all time feathers... his career is really something special...
Maybe the better question is .....who would give Pep the best fight and on occasion be able to beat him. I seriously think he would get the best 4 out of 7 with anyone......partly because he would just finesse his way through.
BoxBuzz wrote:Maybe the better question is .....who would give Pep the best fight and on occasion be able to beat him. I seriously think he would get the best 4 out of 7 with anyone......partly because he would just finesse his way through.
I think Armstrong definitely has the style to beat him.
The way you beat an elusive fighter is by throwing an ass load of punches and this is what Armstrong did.
BoxBuzz wrote:Maybe the better question is .....who would give Pep the best fight and on occasion be able to beat him. I seriously think he would get the best 4 out of 7 with anyone......partly because he would just finesse his way through.
I think Armstrong definitely has the style to beat him.
The way you beat an elusive fighter is by throwing an ass load of punches and this is what Armstrong did.
Yeah thats right, and one of Peps few weaknesses was that he wasn't a big puncher and therefore wouldn't have the power to push Armstrong back... the more I think about it the more I edge to Armstrong over Pep... Armstrong had great speed himself also...
Pep in his prime, who could possibly take him? As a matter of styles go, Ruben Olivares would have the best crack at him. Ruben had trouble with the really big bangers late in his career, not boxers. His 126 peak was around the time he was beating Art Hafey and Zensuke Utagawa and he could do it all, box, slug or most noticeably the way he would methodically break a fighter down body and head. I can't see Pep losing to Sanchez or Arguello. Sanchez was a counter-puncher who had problems with boxers (Becerra, Ford, Castillo, Cowdell) as did Arguello (Marcel, Fernandez, even Chacon who was known more as a banger was ahead on points employing a slick in/out style until he was cut). It's strictly a matter of styles and Olivares' jabbing/ bodywork/shift to the head would stand the best chance to beat the prime Wilie Pep.
Henry Armstrong his puch output is to high he would eventually land and finshed it he hit very hard plus he'd be after pep from round 1 to 15 he was relentless.
BoxBuzz wrote:I don't mean to split hairs but "finest fighter" and who can win head to head don't always have the same meaning for me.
Sanchez would be hard for Willie to beat as was Saddler, but when you step in and factor the "styles make fights" aspect it gets fuzzy. Won't it be great when we finally get this "time travel" thing down and we can settle these bets?
I think that in the afterlife,those types of questions are eventually answered.
8)
Exactly...I'm currently living in the "Miller After Life"....and I can tell you that I have it on good account that Pep beats Saddler and Moore Beats Charles 4 out of 7 times.
